OK, this is good.

I have set up the Marantz *tweaked* CDP (£500 new**, apparently) on my
recently-acquired Argos POS stack (where the CD player cost nobbut 70 quid,
IIRC) thusly:

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/cdpcompare.JPG

The output levels have been matched nicely (the Marantz has built-in
attenuation) and I can flick to and fro between them *instantaneously* while
they play, with the amplifier's zapper.

Here it comes.......

With a stark, clear, intimate female vocal/acoustic backing (Regina Lund
'Unique') CD on my *crystal clear* and very revealing Pinkies (Firewood
Horns with Fostex FE103E fullrange drivers) I ABSOLUTELY CAN NOT SPLIT
THEM!!

To me they sound about as *identical* as you could get!! Treble, bass,
background detail (of which there is plenty), 'recording noise' &c. - the
whole works!

Now, I fully appreciate this is unscientific and pretty meaningless as it
stands and that I need to run the same comparison with a few more
discs/other people before it becomes at all meaningful - the usual
invitation to anyone who wants to check it for themselves applies....

.....but as luck would have it, the piano tuner's due here sometime between 1
and 2 o' clock. If he'll play ball (he will if he wants to come again!) I'll
run it all past him and will post his responses (sound quality generally and
the two CDPs) here a little later on.

My curiosity about the Argos stuff was brought on by the amp I grabbed a
week or two back to use on the computer. It worked superbly amplifying
computer sound but proved to be useless for recording to the HDD, due to the
absence of a proper Tape Loop - Line Out only and ferocious hum if I looped
the computer back in to one of the other imputs! (Solved this with a dinky
little Pioneer SA-510 amp with two Tape Loops!! :-)

My contention is that it's pretty hard to get really crappy-sounding audio
gear these days (once you get away from plastic boomboxes) and I was
curious - credit to me, I think, for forking out hard cash to find out for
myself when others are content to condemn gear out of hand completely
*unheard*...!!

(From even as far away as the Other Side Of The World it seems!! ;-)


** Well aware that any chance of flogging it to anyone here is well and
truly stoked now!! ;-)

Keith G wrote:

OK, this is good.

I have set up the Marantz *tweaked* CDP (£500 new**, apparently) on my
recently-acquired Argos POS stack (where the CD player cost nobbut 70 quid,

With a stark, clear, intimate female vocal/acoustic backing (Regina Lund
'Unique') CD on my *crystal clear* and very revealing Pinkies (Firewood
Horns with Fostex FE103E fullrange drivers) I ABSOLUTELY CAN NOT SPLIT
THEM!!

To me they sound about as *identical* as you could get!! Treble, bass,
background detail (of which there is plenty), 'recording noise' &c. - the
whole works!

Nothing controversial there. It would cost manufacturers more if they were
to make cheap players sound worse than expensive ones.

....but as luck would have it, the piano tuner's due here sometime between 1
and 2 o' clock.

Could you ask him if he still tunes to 440Hz for A or has moved on to the
European standard of 442Hz?

--
Eiron

No good deed ever goes unpunished.

"Eiron" wrote in message
...
Keith G wrote:

OK, this is good.

I have set up the Marantz *tweaked* CDP (£500 new**, apparently) on my
recently-acquired Argos POS stack (where the CD player cost nobbut 70
quid,

With a stark, clear, intimate female vocal/acoustic backing (Regina Lund
'Unique') CD on my *crystal clear* and very revealing Pinkies (Firewood
Horns with Fostex FE103E fullrange drivers) I ABSOLUTELY CAN NOT SPLIT
THEM!!

To me they sound about as *identical* as you could get!! Treble, bass,
background detail (of which there is plenty), 'recording noise' &c. - the
whole works!

Nothing controversial there. It would cost manufacturers more if they were
to make cheap players sound worse than expensive ones.


I beg to differ.

Note the word *tweaked* above - *if* the CDPs do sound the same (haven't had
the chance to get the choona to listen yet) then it implies that the
redoubtable Ken Ishiwata has got to *work* on a Marantz to get it sound as
good as an Argos cheapo CDP!! (Not to mention all those bloody copper
rivets!) Unless, of course, the standard of CDPs was significantly lower
when the Marantz was made!! (??)



....but as luck would have it, the piano tuner's due here sometime
between 1 and 2 o' clock.

Could you ask him if he still tunes to 440Hz for A or has moved on to the
European standard of 442Hz?


He tunes to 440 Hz.

As I am now forced into 'silent running' for the next hour or so I will
relate the whole story (trying to type silently) as told to me....

Goes like this:

For years the UK, Continent and US tuned A to 440 Hz. Ten years ago the
Berlin Philharmonic changed to 442 Hz and, liking it, changed again to 444
Hz (Beethoven's preference?) and, the tuner tells me, that most continental
orchestras now tune to 444. (Also James Galway had to get himself a new
flute when he joined the BPO!!)

We in the UK are 440 except the Birmingham Symphony Orchestra who is tuned
to 442 Hz...!! (The tuner 'does' them as well, apparently!)

Additionally, he advises that Steinway (London) has all 440/442/444 versions
in its 'Hire Fleet' and they will not allow them to be pulled up and down as
it unsettles them and spoils the tone. The tuner has left the piano in the
Derngate (Northampton) at 442 as he got fed up with having to keep changing
it, apparently!

That do yer?

Back later with the verdict on the CDPs. Meanwhile, here's a shot of the
'tuner's tuner':

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/tuner.JPG

Cost him £2,500 a while back apparently!!

On Thu, 11 May 2006 13:21:32 +0100, "Keith G"
wrote:

We in the UK are 440 except the Birmingham Symphony Orchestra who is tuned
to 442 Hz...!! (The tuner 'does' them as well, apparently!)

Additionally, he advises that Steinway (London) has all 440/442/444 versions
in its 'Hire Fleet' and they will not allow them to be pulled up and down as
it unsettles them and spoils the tone. The tuner has left the piano in the
Derngate (Northampton) at 442 as he got fed up with having to keep changing
it, apparently!

That do yer?

Don't forget all those early music orchestras that tune to 415 and a
whole slew of other frequencies in that vicinity. Luckily there are no
pianos involved - just harpsichords.

d

--
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

"Don Prick"


Don't forget all those early music orchestras that tune to 415 and a
whole slew of other frequencies in that vicinity. Luckily there are no
pianos involved - just harpsichords.



** 415 is exactly one semitone below 440.

Play that on a chromatic instrument without retuning.





........ Phil

In article ,
Keith G wrote:
With a stark, clear, intimate female vocal/acoustic backing (Regina Lund
'Unique') CD on my *crystal clear* and very revealing Pinkies (Firewood
Horns with Fostex FE103E fullrange drivers) I ABSOLUTELY CAN NOT SPLIT
THEM!!

To me they sound about as *identical* as you could get!! Treble, bass,
background detail (of which there is plenty), 'recording noise' &c. -
the whole works!

Really, it's what you'd expect. Latest D to A convertors should only be
better than 20 year old ones - after all, why go to the bother of
producing a chip that will be made in millions if it's not decent? The
design cost is less than pennies over the run.

Which leaves the analogue part. Same thing applies - a decent op amp
doesn't cost large manufacturers more to buy or make.

I've got a long held feeling that makers like Sony who sell several
different CD players at different prices actually degrade the cheaper
models.

--
*Happiness is seeing your mother-in-law on a milk carton

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Keith G wrote:
OK, this is good.

I have set up the Marantz *tweaked* CDP (£500 new**, apparently) on my
recently-acquired Argos POS stack (where the CD player cost nobbut 70 quid,
IIRC) thusly:

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/cdpcompare.JPG

The output levels have been matched nicely (the Marantz has built-in
attenuation) and I can flick to and fro between them *instantaneously* while
they play, with the amplifier's zapper.

Here it comes.......

With a stark, clear, intimate female vocal/acoustic backing (Regina Lund
'Unique') CD on my *crystal clear* and very revealing Pinkies (Firewood
Horns with Fostex FE103E fullrange drivers) I ABSOLUTELY CAN NOT SPLIT
THEM!!

To me they sound about as *identical* as you could get!! Treble, bass,
background detail (of which there is plenty), 'recording noise' &c. - the
whole works!

Now, I fully appreciate this is unscientific and pretty meaningless as it
stands and that I need to run the same comparison with a few more
discs/other people before it becomes at all meaningful - the usual
invitation to anyone who wants to check it for themselves applies....

....but as luck would have it, the piano tuner's due here sometime between 1
and 2 o' clock. If he'll play ball (he will if he wants to come again!) I'll
run it all past him and will post his responses (sound quality generally and
the two CDPs) here a little later on.

My curiosity about the Argos stuff was brought on by the amp I grabbed a
week or two back to use on the computer. It worked superbly amplifying
computer sound but proved to be useless for recording to the HDD, due to the
absence of a proper Tape Loop - Line Out only and ferocious hum if I looped
the computer back in to one of the other imputs! (Solved this with a dinky
little Pioneer SA-510 amp with two Tape Loops!! :-)

My contention is that it's pretty hard to get really crappy-sounding audio
gear these days (once you get away from plastic boomboxes) and I was
curious - credit to me, I think, for forking out hard cash to find out for
myself when others are content to condemn gear out of hand completely
*unheard*...!!

(From even as far away as the Other Side Of The World it seems!! ;-)


** Well aware that any chance of flogging it to anyone here is well and
truly stoked now!! ;-)


This pretty much agrees with what I'e found. Some few months ago, I
bought a £ 7.00 portable CD player from Argos, as I wanted a portable CD
player for a long flight. I couldn't believe that anything at £ 7.00
could be any good, but I was quite prepared to throw it away after the
flight if it matched my expectations. I still have it!

On headphones, (AKG K270s), I can't hear any difference with my Meridian
player. On using line output, through my main 'speakers I try to
persuade myself there's a difference, but I'm buggered if I can choose
between them. The player is, as you would expect, a nasty bit of
plastic, with as much quality as a polished turd, but nevertheless,
where it matters, i.e. sound quality, bad it isn't.

It illustrates what I've believed for some time that once the basic
audio parameters of low noise, low distortion and wide flat frequency
response are met, there's really very little else that matters.

S.

Keith G wrote:
"Eiron" wrote in message
...

Keith G wrote:


OK, this is good.

I have set up the Marantz *tweaked* CDP (£500 new**, apparently) on my
recently-acquired Argos POS stack (where the CD player cost nobbut 70
quid,

With a stark, clear, intimate female vocal/acoustic backing (Regina Lund
'Unique') CD on my *crystal clear* and very revealing Pinkies (Firewood
Horns with Fostex FE103E fullrange drivers) I ABSOLUTELY CAN NOT SPLIT
THEM!!

To me they sound about as *identical* as you could get!! Treble, bass,
background detail (of which there is plenty), 'recording noise' &c. - the
whole works!

Nothing controversial there. It would cost manufacturers more if they were
to make cheap players sound worse than expensive ones.



I beg to differ.

Note the word *tweaked* above - *if* the CDPs do sound the same (haven't had
the chance to get the choona to listen yet) then it implies that the
redoubtable Ken Ishiwata has got to *work* on a Marantz to get it sound as
good as an Argos cheapo CDP!! (Not to mention all those bloody copper
rivets!) Unless, of course, the standard of CDPs was significantly lower
when the Marantz was made!! (??)



Just to be picky.

There are at least two others potential implications.

1. the CDP sounded the same before it was tweeked and the changes were
for marketing reasons instead of the sound.

2. the differences are not revealed by your setup.

--
Nick

Nick Gorham wrote:
Keith G wrote:
"Eiron" wrote in message
...

Keith G wrote:


OK, this is good.

I have set up the Marantz *tweaked* CDP (£500 new**, apparently) on
my recently-acquired Argos POS stack (where the CD player cost
nobbut 70 quid,

With a stark, clear, intimate female vocal/acoustic backing (Regina
Lund 'Unique') CD on my *crystal clear* and very revealing Pinkies
(Firewood Horns with Fostex FE103E fullrange drivers) I ABSOLUTELY
CAN NOT SPLIT THEM!!

To me they sound about as *identical* as you could get!! Treble,
bass, background detail (of which there is plenty), 'recording
noise' &c. - the whole works!

Nothing controversial there. It would cost manufacturers more if they
were
to make cheap players sound worse than expensive ones.



I beg to differ.

Note the word *tweaked* above - *if* the CDPs do sound the same
(haven't had the chance to get the choona to listen yet) then it
implies that the redoubtable Ken Ishiwata has got to *work* on a
Marantz to get it sound as good as an Argos cheapo CDP!! (Not to
mention all those bloody copper rivets!) Unless, of course, the
standard of CDPs was significantly lower when the Marantz was made!! (??)



Just to be picky.

There are at least two others potential implications.

1. the CDP sounded the same before it was tweeked and the changes were
for marketing reasons instead of the sound.

2. the differences are not revealed by your setup.

It would be most interesting to see what actually changed between the
original and tweaked version that can be measured. Lower noise? Lower
distortion? Who knows. Then, as the original already had measurable
parameters well below the threshold of audibility, how can improving the
figures make it sound any better?

Unless proven otherwise, I think that Special Edition products are a
marketing exercise to improve margins.

S

"Serge Auckland" wrote


This pretty much agrees with what I'e found. Some few months ago, I bought
a £ 7.00 portable CD player from Argos, as I wanted a portable CD player
for a long flight. I couldn't believe that anything at £ 7.00 could be any
good, but I was quite prepared to throw it away after the flight if it
matched my expectations. I still have it!


:-)



On headphones, (AKG K270s), I can't hear any difference with my Meridian
player. On using line output, through my main 'speakers I try to persuade
myself there's a difference, but I'm buggered if I can choose between
them. The player is, as you would expect, a nasty bit of plastic, with as
much quality as a polished turd, but nevertheless, where it matters, i.e.
sound quality, bad it isn't.

It illustrates what I've believed for some time that once the basic audio
parameters of low noise, low distortion and wide flat frequency response
are met, there's really very little else that matters.


The only question with cheap stuff (other than sound quality) is that of
durability - good sound is only possible if the gadget continues to work!!

OK, here's the follow up:

After an *age* tuning the piano (when I have to be completely silent - he
can't tune by gadget alone) I got him to listen to the two CDPs.

I synched them to within 1 note apart and gave him the zapper. Half the time
(5 minutes or so) the discrepancy was 'invisible' and I had no idea when he
was changing unless I say the display (CD or Tape/Aux inputs). After a while
he said 'Well, there's not a lot of difference there.' I said 'How much
difference then?' he said 'Well, none at all actually!!) I reinforced the
point and got him to state clearly he could hear *no* difference at all!

The system, I might add is *crystal clear* - much tape hiss from certain CDs
for example and bags of distant, background detail, breathing &c.

But the best bit was the speakers. He was really taken with them. He asked
how many speakers (drivers) were in them (the Pinkies) and seemed to have
trouble with the fact there was only the one driver. When I told him I built
them he was quietly quite amazed I think (actually, I *know*) he and asked
if anybody who could do woodwork could build them. I said yes. He said he
had a friend who built pipe organs....

....I said he might just be able to cope!! :-)

I hadn't intended to play anything on the (now yellow) Jerichos but he was
genuinely interested so I switched the 300B amp on (like from stone cold)
and chucked on a Ry Cooder ('Jazz') record. He was into it now and really
quite impressed, so I pushed my luck and put a piano (Debussy Preludes)
record on. Straightaway he said it was a 'good piano sound' - just as I was
about to ask him!! That was with the Shure M75 ED2 - I swapped it for my
Ortofon MC 200 and *boing* he was away!!

The bugger is that as soon as he had gone there was a *seriously* dynamic
and impressive bit of music came up which would have been a much better
'demo piece'!!

Anyhoo, his opinion alone is good enough to confirm that the CDPs are, as I
thought, virtually identical and the fact that he has taken a note of my
Speaker Page website address for his friend tells me the speakers are up to
snuff.*

Asitappens, I know they are now - the Pinkies have browned in summat lovely
(I mean *way better* than commercial boxes) and the 'crunchiness' has gone
from the Jerichos. The slight 'boxiness' on *some* R3 announcements is, I am
sure, coming from the studio and not the speakers and the music is perfectly
fine.

The tuner was eager to please? Good customer relations? Hardly, this guy is
*busy* - one word out of place and he'd walk!! (Nice bloke but a bit
*prissy* if you know what I mean!! ;-)

('One here' knows he won't/doesn't have to travel too far for work!! ;-)


*I can die happy now!! ;-)