On Mon, 10 Jul 2006 13:05:17 GMT, "dadiOH"
wrote:

No, not necessarily *sound* as loud just increase the values in the softer
songs until the greatest is equal to the greatest in the loudest song. For
example...

Loud song greatest value = 29000

Song to be changed, greatest value = 24,500

(29000)-(24500) = 4500. Therefore, all values in this song are to be
increased by 4500 when played.

Which won't make it sound as loud as the compressed song.

On Mon, 10 Jul 2006 13:19:24 -0400, NRen2k5 wrote:

Unfortunately that volume reduction is probably achieved digitally by
just throwing away bits, which is a bad thing.

It doesn't throw away bits. What it does is it changes "global gain"
values. Doing so is totally lossless and reversible.

But, while it is happening, the system is throwing away bits.


Anyway do you WANT
everything reduced to the level of the quietest? You then have to
apply more amplification, bringing noise levels up.

So?

You don't see that as undesirable?


And you don't have to reduce them to the level of the quietest. What you
can do is apply "track gain" so that all the songs are a certain volume,
for example 89dB, and then use "constant gain" to bring the volume of
every song up or down by the same amount.

I had a look, and I can't see how the device works without modifying
dynamic range - but even if it works by lowering... you have another
valid 'yuk' point.

MP3Gain doesn't touch dynamic range.

Of course it does. The noise floor of the playback system isn't going
to go away. Reducing signal level will bring peaks nearer to the
noise floor, i.e. reduce dynamic range.

Laurence Payne lpayne1NOSPAM@dslDOTpipexDOTcom wrote:

MP3Gain doesn't touch dynamic range.

Of course it does. The noise floor of the playback system isn't going
to go away. Reducing signal level will bring peaks nearer to the
noise floor, i.e. reduce dynamic range.

Yes, but it's adjusting the level right before the converters, not earlier
in the chain. So your only worry is the noise floor of the converters
themselves. And frankly, this being MP3, you have far more serious things
to worry about than that.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Eeyore wrote:
Kludge writes:

The thing is, that field is ALWAYS maxed out whenever anyone hands you
an MP3, because all the encoders want their products to play back as loudly
as possible. So you can usually turn it down, but seldom can you turn it
up.

That's interesting Scott.

Is there a handy application to edit the header ?

The MP3Gain application that started out this horrible thread will allow
you to adjust that field. I don't know an easy way to edit the other
header info although of course there are always binary editing tools like
git and emacs to allow you to do it by hand.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Don Pearce wrote:
On Mon, 10 Jul 2006 13:05:17 GMT, "dadiOH"
wrote:

Don Pearce wrote:
On Mon, 10 Jul 2006 11:10:55 GMT, "dadiOH"
wrote:

David Morgan (MAMS) wrote:

I had a look, and I can't see how the device works without
modifying dynamic range

Simply put...

1. Find max volume among all songs
2. "Turn up the volume" in all others so their max is the same as
the loudest.

Won't work - can't work. If you have a mixture of music, then peak
levels as related to average loudness will vary wildly. The loudest
sounding will have highly compressed dynamics, with most of the tune
crammed against the limit. If you try to increase the levels of all
the others until they sound as loud, they will all be clipped to
hell.

No, not necessarily *sound* as loud just increase the values in the
softer songs until the greatest is equal to the greatest in the
loudest song. For example...

Loud song greatest value = 29000

Song to be changed, greatest value = 24,500

(29000)-(24500) = 4500. Therefore, all values in this song are to be
increased by 4500 when played.

But what does that do? They are just numbers, and they have only the
most tangential relationship to the perceived playing of the track -
which is what this is all about.

The playing of the track involves (after decoding to wave) interpretation of
numbers - that's all a file is - in a meaningful way to produce the desired
sound; in this case, sound.

What the numbers do in this case is to tell the player to increase the
volume of each sound by a specific amount.
______________

Incidentally the maths is all off too. You can't do this by adding
numbers, you have to multiply.

No, one can certainly do binary addition.

Things may have changed but in the not too distant past there were no op
codes for multiplication. Doesn't matter one way or the other because
multiplication is nothing more than repetitive addition.


--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
....a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

Laurence Payne wrote:
On Mon, 10 Jul 2006 13:05:17 GMT, "dadiOH"
wrote:

No, not necessarily *sound* as loud just increase the values in the
softer songs until the greatest is equal to the greatest in the
loudest song. For example...

Loud song greatest value = 29000

Song to be changed, greatest value = 24,500

(29000)-(24500) = 4500. Therefore, all values in this song are to be
increased by 4500 when played.

Which won't make it sound as loud as the compressed song.

Did you read this part?...

No, not necessarily *sound* as loud just increase the values in the
softer songs until the greatest is equal to the greatest in the
loudest song. For example...


--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
....a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

David Morgan (MAMS) wrote:
"NRen2k5" wrote in message ...
Scott Dorsey wrote:
The thing is, that field is ALWAYS maxed out whenever anyone hands you
an MP3, because all the encoders want their products to play back as loudly
as possible. So you can usually turn it down, but seldom can you turn it
up.
No.

It's the music industry that wants their *songs* to play as loudly as
possible, so they use dynamic compression to be able to make them as
loud as possible on CD.

You would never *want* to turn *up* the gain on these files, since it
will make the already-existing clipping even worse, but you can do it.

Thus altering dynamic range even further, or living with massive distortion,
the latter of which I'd hope most products would not consider as an option.

No, dynamic range is not altered at all.

The massive distortion can be undone. MP3 doesn't really have a noise
ceiling or floor like PCM does. The signal peaks don't actually get
clipped in the MP3 itself... just in the playback. So this "clipping"
distortion can be fixed by just reducing the gain of the MP3.

--
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"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...
Back in the LP days, it was all manual, and you had to put "PLAY THIS
RECORD AS LOUD AS POSSIBLE" in the liner notes.

????

LP's used compression the same as most CD's. In fact the need for
compression was greater because of the limited dynamic range. Just because
mastering engineers have lost their way these days is irrelevant to the
technical necessities.
Not only that, but with LP you *could* push the peak cutting levels higher
than RIAA recommendations as well. It's *impossible* to push peak CD levels
higher than Dfs though.

MrT.

"Mr.T" MrT@home wrote in message ...

"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...
Back in the LP days, it was all manual, and you had to put "PLAY THIS
RECORD AS LOUD AS POSSIBLE" in the liner notes.


????

LP's used compression the same as most CD's. In fact the need for
compression was greater because of the limited dynamic range. Just because
mastering engineers have lost their way these days is irrelevant to the
technical necessities.
Not only that, but with LP you *could* push the peak cutting levels higher
than RIAA recommendations as well. It's *impossible* to push peak CD levels
higher than Dfs though.

MrT.


Careful, Mr. T.... you're preaching to the only guy on the r.a.p. who is
still making LP record masters in his basement. ;-)

David Morgan (MAMS) wrote:

if gain is increased (especially on material where peaks are likely
already near FS) limiting will have to come into play, altering
dynamics.


True, if we accept that everything will have peaks at or near full
scale. Much to my surprise, there are some older tracks in my
collection that do NOT hit full scale, even on peaks. Part of that
whole dated concept of "albums" where dynamic expression extended from
track to track.

--
"It CAN'T be too loud... some of the red lights aren't even on yet!"
- Lorin David Schultz
in the control room
making even bad news sound good

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