On Sat, 09 Sep 2006 11:08:40 +0100, Eeyore
wrote:

So? The purpose of the DAC is to listen to it.

Listening will only tell you what *you* think of it, i.e. subjective evaluation.
That is no reliable measure of 'goodness' whatever as easily can be seen from
those who think SET tube amps are great despite shocking failings wrt precision
and linearity.

Don't we know how to make a transparent DAC yet?

Laurence Payne wrote:

On Sat, 09 Sep 2006 11:08:40 +0100, Eeyore
wrote:

So? The purpose of the DAC is to listen to it.

Listening will only tell you what *you* think of it, i.e. subjective evaluation.
That is no reliable measure of 'goodness' whatever as easily can be seen from
those who think SET tube amps are great despite shocking failings wrt precision
and linearity.

Don't we know how to make a transparent DAC yet?

We know how to make ones that measure so well that they must surely be sonically
blameless yet certain ppl insist they differ still.

Some ppl even say they're better when a toob is used after the DAC !

Graham

On 2006-09-09, Eeyore wrote:
Laurence Payne wrote:
Don't we know how to make a transparent DAC yet?

We know how to make ones that measure so well that they must surely be sonically
blameless yet certain ppl insist they differ still.

Some ppl even say they're better when a toob is used after the DAC !

This configuration always fascinates me. If the DAC isn't (sufficiently)
transparent then putting a valve (tube) in series with it cannot make the
combination transparent. Yet sometimes I see the T word used to describe
"better" in this context.

(Note, before the deluge starts, that I am not commenting on anyone's
sonic taste. Merely commenting on the words sometimes used to describe
that taste.)

--
John Phillips

John Phillips wrote:

On 2006-09-09, Eeyore wrote:
Laurence Payne wrote:
Don't we know how to make a transparent DAC yet?

We know how to make ones that measure so well that they must surely be sonically
blameless yet certain ppl insist they differ still.

Some ppl even say they're better when a toob is used after the DAC !

This configuration always fascinates me. If the DAC isn't (sufficiently)
transparent then putting a valve (tube) in series with it cannot make the
combination transparent.

Sssshhhh ! Don't tell anyone ! No amount of science was involved in the observation.


Yet sometimes I see the T word used to describe
"better" in this context.

Yes.


(Note, before the deluge starts, that I am not commenting on anyone's
sonic taste. Merely commenting on the words sometimes used to describe
that taste.)

I've spent some time in rec.audio.tubes to try and establish what this is all about.
It's quite clear that the 'toobies' believe that added colouration from vacuum tubes
equals 'higher fidelity' ( because they like the sound ).

What they are confusing this with is their preference for an intentionally flawed but
entirely pleasnt and relatively benign form of distortion. Nothing wrong with their
listening preference but the presentation of this as inherently superior is utterly
bogus.

Graham

Listening will only tell you what *you* think of it, i.e. subjective
evaluation.

Exactly. That's how most people evaluate products.

That is no reliable measure of 'goodness' whatever as easily can be seen from
those who think SET tube amps are great despite shocking failings wrt precision
and linearity. Graham

Many SET amps sound very good.

please learn to quote properly btw

please learn to be more flexible and stop demanding that other people
obey your own views.

Some ppl even say they're better when a toob is used after the DAC ! .

Of course. And they sound better still when the tube is a DHT. You
don't get all this do you. And since I'm convinced that you have never
in your life heard a DAC with a DHT output, forgive me if I remark that
you have very little basis for comment.

If the DAC isn't (sufficiently) transparent then putting a valve (tube)
in series with it cannot make the combination transparent. Yet
sometimes I see the T word used to describe
"better" in this context.

Isn't a DAC by definition something with an analogue output stage? So
something must be on the end of it, whether ss circuit,
transformer,capacitor or tube stage. The advantage of a tube stage is
that the output with DC on it can be fed directly into the grid of the
tube, and the DC included in the biasing. You can't talk about a DAC as
if there's "nothing" on the end of it.

Andy Evans wrote:

Listening will only tell you what *you* think of it, i.e. subjective
evaluation.

Exactly. That's how most people evaluate products.

Which is fine as far as it goes. Do you expect everyone's listening preference to be
identical though ? There lies the limitation !


That is no reliable measure of 'goodness' whatever as easily can be seen from
those who think SET tube amps are great despite shocking failings wrt precision
and linearity. Graham

Many SET amps sound very good.

So some say. They also produce oodles of intermodulation products which are most
unmusical. This will easily be revealed by playing 'complex' music, yet they will
tend to sound excellent on a single instrument, or say a quartet.


please learn to quote properly btw

please learn to be more flexible and stop demanding that other people
obey your own views.

Please pull your head out of your arse !

Graham

What they are confusing this with is their preference for an
intentionally flawed but
entirely pleasnt and relatively benign form of distortion. Nothing
wrong with their
listening preference but the presentation of this as inherently
superior is utterly
bogus.

The idea that valves are simply "added distortion" and nothing else
could only be made by somebody with a) very little knowledge of modern
valve circuits and how they sound or b) somebody with cloth ears.

Andy Evans wrote:

Some ppl even say they're better when a toob is used after the DAC ! .

Of course. And they sound better still when the tube is a DHT. You
don't get all this do you. And since I'm convinced that you have never
in your life heard a DAC with a DHT output, forgive me if I remark that
you have very little basis for comment.

So, do tell me. In your opinion how does the tube stage influence the sound
exactly ?

Graham