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Apogee mini dac or Benchmark DAC1
All it has to do is sound as *realistic* as possible for me - that's
*my* realistic, not anyone else's and it definitely helps if I can hear *all* of the voices, *all* of the words (where applicable) and *all* of the instruments. Keith. Keith, you're definitely heading for one of my small-DHT preamps - I can give you all the kit bits cheap and you can assemble it. Don't ask me why, but these small DHTs have a clarity I don't find in any other amplification stage. You have a little treat in store. Andy |
Apogee mini dac or Benchmark DAC1
Eeyore wrote:
Are you saying that all "audio professionals" produce nothing but peerless recordings which cannot be improved upon? It's simply anyone's opinion as to whether the original recording was peerless or not. In case you're referring to a multitrack before mastering, I was meaning the final stereo mix that one purchases from a record shop. You can be pretty confident that those ppl doing the job are better at it than you might be though. How do you work that out? As to improving on it - my opinion is quite simple. You can 'modify' it to suit your taste but it is what it is, warts and all. If it's anybody's guess whether the recording is peerless to begin with, I put it to you that the notions 'improved upon' and 'modified' are not neccessarily mutually exclusive. Certainly no particular 'flavour' of circuitry will produce an impeccable result everytime when fed with varying quality of source material. The method I favour is to aim for neutrality in reproduction and accept such flaws as exist as they are rather than try to 'paint them out' and lose all the good bits in the process. To hell with neutrality. I aim for what I like the sound of. Answer this, Donkey Boy: What is music *for*? -- Wally www.wally.myby.co.uk Stress: You wake up screaming and realise you haven't fallen asleep yet. |
Apogee mini dac or Benchmark DAC1
Keith G wrote: "Eeyore" wrote Clipping *is* to be deprecated you know. Tell that to the people who produced 80% of the last, say, 100 CDs I've MP3'd to HDD..... Bloody DJs and their ilk most likely. The thorn in the flesh of pro-audio. Graham |
Apogee mini dac or Benchmark DAC1
Keith G wrote: "Eeyore" wrote Keith G wrote: Eeyor, you got some catching up to do. I'm taking the **** out of Arny, I don't consider 'legacy amps' and 70s transistor stuff to be crap Plenty of both *are* though. Sure, but not *all* simply by token of being old.... Not *all* for sure. Have you ever tried say a well-designed mosfet amp for comparison ? Not sure that I have - there's been a lot of stuff through here in the last few years.... Recommend one and I'll see if I can get hold of one. The best one I know is one I designed myself actually. I have a couple here in need of 'refurbing'. It was in some respects close to a 'no-compromise' design albeit 16 yrs old now but aimed at pros so has fan cooling which isn't ideal of course for domestic use. 12 output mosfets per channel btw ! It's a stonking piece of kit for sure. I challenge anyone to be rude about it. Graham |
Apogee mini dac or Benchmark DAC1
Wally wrote: Eeyore wrote: Are you saying that all "audio professionals" produce nothing but peerless recordings which cannot be improved upon? It's simply anyone's opinion as to whether the original recording was peerless or not. In case you're referring to a multitrack before mastering, I was meaning the final stereo mix that one purchases from a record shop. It's good that you recognise the subtle difference. The mastering engineer is indeed the final guy who gets to review it. CD technology has meant that no compromises have to be made in producing a master compared to the case in the days of vinyl. Nevertheless a mastering engineer may well 'equalise for CD' ( whatever that means ) and normalise listening levels to optimise the 'CD experience'. That's an 'artistic' decision. You can be pretty confident that those ppl doing the job are better at it than you might be though. How do you work that out? How does anyone get to work in that industry ? How familiar are you with it ? As to improving on it - my opinion is quite simple. You can 'modify' it to suit your taste but it is what it is, warts and all. If it's anybody's guess whether the recording is peerless to begin with, I put it to you that the notions 'improved upon' and 'modified' are not neccessarily mutually exclusive. Certainly no particular 'flavour' of circuitry will produce an impeccable result everytime when fed with varying quality of source material. The method I favour is to aim for neutrality in reproduction and accept such flaws as exist as they are rather than try to 'paint them out' and lose all the good bits in the process. To hell with neutrality. I aim for what I like the sound of. Answer this, Donkey Boy: What is music *for*? It's for listening to of course ! If you like Daddy's Sauce on your steak let me be the last to criticise your choice. Graham |
Apogee mini dac or Benchmark DAC1
Eeyore wrote:
How does anyone get to work in that industry ? How familiar are you with it ? If you have to ask that question, you were in no position to make the previous statement. It's for listening to of course ! Try again. -- Wally www.wally.myby.co.uk You're unique - just like everybody else. |
Apogee mini dac or Benchmark DAC1
Wally wrote: Eeyore wrote: How does anyone get to work in that industry ? How familiar are you with it ? If you have to ask that question, you were in no position to make the previous statement. It's for listening to of course ! Try again. Troll. Graham |
Apogee mini dac or Benchmark DAC1
"Andy Evans" wrote in message oups.com... All it has to do is sound as *realistic* as possible for me - that's *my* realistic, not anyone else's and it definitely helps if I can hear *all* of the voices, *all* of the words (where applicable) and *all* of the instruments. Keith. Keith, you're definitely heading for one of my small-DHT preamps - I can give you all the kit bits cheap and you can assemble it. Don't ask me why, but these small DHTs have a clarity I don't find in any other amplification stage. You have a little treat in store. Andy Andy. That sounds like a temptation too great for Keith to resist:-) Can you tell us more about DHT preamp valves, please. A separate thread might be a good idea, as we seem to be quite a long way off the original topic. Regards Iain |
Apogee mini dac or Benchmark DAC1
"Eeyore" wrote in message ... Nevertheless a mastering engineer may well 'equalise for CD' ( whatever that means ) and normalise listening levels to optimise the 'CD experience'. That's an 'artistic' decision. Sorry Graham. Can't agree. I attend several CD mastering sessions a month EQ and level "optimisation" (that's the correct term) are used solely to make the finished CD sound as loud as possible.This is a decision forced by commercial pressure, to which only certain sectors of the market are subject. It has nothing whatsoever to do with "art". Regards Iain |
Apogee mini dac or Benchmark DAC1
"Wally" wrote in message ... Eeyore wrote: I really sometimes wonder what the audiophool nuts reckon audio professionals do for a living ? Maybe they missed the fact that it isn't audiophools who actually make the recordings, mix them down, master them and press them ? Only then do the terminally clueless get a chance to think they can somehow make it better than the original, which may have passed through a thousand well-designed op-amp stages on its way to its destination ! Are you saying that all "audio professionals" produce nothing but peerless recordings which cannot be improved upon? I think it's pretty safe to say that we make a better job than the "armchair experts" probably would:-) It is interesting to sit such a person, who tells you he/she knows *exactly how it should sound* at the console during a 24 track mixdown (I have done this experiment several times) You tell them not to worry about the tricky bits, EQ, compressors, limiters, audio processing etc, just get the tracks roughly in balance. After about twenty minutes of fader leapfrogging, all meters are at +8dBFS, and all faders are open as far as they will go. The balance is in chaos. Then comes the question; " How do I get more drums?" :-)) Iain |
Apogee mini dac or Benchmark DAC1
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message . .. "Keith G" wrote in message What do you people play recorded music for - to be entertained and pleased Yeah, and there's a ton of music in this world that does not need to be wallpapered to sound good. or sit there with a notepad and write down what defects you *think* you can hear....?? That seems to be what you tube bigots do. Arny. Why do you choose to call people who use/enjoy tube amps "bigots" Is this in keeping with your new-born Christian beliefs? Iain |
Apogee mini dac or Benchmark DAC1
"Andy Evans" wrote in message oups.com... What they are confusing this with is their preference for an intentionally flawed but entirely pleasnt and relatively benign form of distortion. Nothing wrong with their listening preference but the presentation of this as inherently superior is utterly bogus. The idea that valves are simply "added distortion" and nothing else could only be made by somebody with a) very little knowledge of modern valve circuits and how they sound or b) somebody with cloth ears. A Swedish "very high end" dealer told me just recently: quote: " The very top of the audio market is totally dominated by tube amplifiers. Music lovers in this sector (many of who have speakers at 10k a pair) are highly discerning." end of quote. Iain |
Apogee mini dac or Benchmark DAC1
In article .com,
Andy Evans wrote: My "straw man argument" detector just triggered. :-) Slainte, Jim I was hoping for something along the lines of: "carefully presenting and refuting a weakened form of an opponent's argument is not always itself a fallacy. Instead, it restricts the scope of the opponent's argument, either to where the argument is no longer relevant or as a step of a proof by exhaustion". It is not a "weakened form" to write an opinion of your own and then pretend it was what someone else wrote. I wrote what I meant, you made up something else to argue with. Slainte, Jim -- Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html |
Apogee mini dac or Benchmark DAC1
In article , Iain Churches
wrote: A Swedish "very high end" dealer told me just recently: quote: " The very top of the audio market is totally dominated by tube amplifiers. Music lovers in this sector (many of who have speakers at 10k a pair) are highly discerning." Was "top" a subjective judgement, or a comment on the prices and his markup profits for "very high end" equipment? :-) Afraid I don't have any 10k speakers. Do two pairs of ESLs count?[1] Or would it be silly of me to confuse the price of the equipment with the levels of musical enjoyment or 'discernment' of the listener?... ;- Slainte, Jim [1] Come to think of it, does a pair of ESL988's register as '10k' in whatever monetary units you had in mind? Would I be more discerning if I emigrated to Zimbabwe? 8-] ... or did you mean 10k Ohms, and speakers which allow the user to avoid an output transformer on the valve amp? ;- -- Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html |
Apogee mini dac or Benchmark DAC1
Andy. That sounds like a temptation too great for Keith to resist:-)
Can you tell us more about DHT preamp valves, please. DHT small tubes were made in the 20s and 30s in large numbers, and some after that until all production died out eventually. All that is available today is NOS (with one or two boutique exceptions - may be useful for high end), unlike DHT large tubes which are still in production (300b etc). Apart from availability they have two problems which need to be overcome: a) They can be microphonic, from airborne/chassis induced vibrations. Users need to find a solution for this, which includes mass in the chassis, decoupling feet, O rings, differential stages instead of SE, or any combination. b) Although they run off good DC like a bench supply, to sound their best they need a sophisticated filament supply including a current source. When you have dealt with the above you are rewarded with a clarity and delicacy which gets quite addictive - you can't go back to directly heated small tubes, judging by the colleagues I have that use them. You then start to stockpile the little buggers since they are shooting up in price. I have 500 so I'm pretty future proof, and that's about the numbers my friends have stockpiled too. I'm counting on the fact that they're an investment - hope I'm correct. They're certainly getting more expensive month by month almost. Dealers still have some, but it's usually ebay. Many are familiar with sticking a DHT at the end of the amplification chain, but put it right at the start in the preamp and it makes even more of a difference. Andy |
Apogee mini dac or Benchmark DAC1
"Andy Evans" wrote in message oups.com... Andy. That sounds like a temptation too great for Keith to resist:-) Can you tell us more about DHT preamp valves, please. DHT small tubes were made in the 20s and 30s in large numbers, and some after that until all production died out eventually. All that is available today is NOS (with one or two boutique exceptions - may be useful for high end), unlike DHT large tubes which are still in production (300b etc). Apart from availability they have two problems which need to be overcome: a) They can be microphonic, from airborne/chassis induced vibrations. Users need to find a solution for this, which includes mass in the chassis, decoupling feet, O rings, differential stages instead of SE, or any combination. b) Although they run off good DC like a bench supply, to sound their best they need a sophisticated filament supply including a current source. When you have dealt with the above you are rewarded with a clarity and delicacy which gets quite addictive - you can't go back to directly heated small tubes, judging by the colleagues I have that use them. You then start to stockpile the little buggers since they are shooting up in price. I have 500 so I'm pretty future proof, and that's about the numbers my friends have stockpiled too. I'm counting on the fact that they're an investment - hope I'm correct. They're certainly getting more expensive month by month almost. Dealers still have some, but it's usually ebay. Many are familiar with sticking a DHT at the end of the amplification chain, but put it right at the start in the preamp and it makes even more of a difference. Andy Andy. Now you have got me interested. Can you supply some type numbers to look out for? So far, the most sonically rewarding valve I have found is the 6SN7. It has none of the problems you mention above, and so I wonder what extra benefits you get from DHT to offset the construction problems. Cheers Iain |
Apogee mini dac or Benchmark DAC1
"Eeyore" wrote in message ... Keith G wrote: "Eeyore" wrote Clipping *is* to be deprecated you know. Tell that to the people who produced 80% of the last, say, 100 CDs I've MP3'd to HDD..... Bloody DJs and their ilk most likely. No, I'm talking about commercial CDs here - as bought 'off the shelf'..... The thorn in the flesh of pro-audio. Which, of course, is not what this group's about..... |
Apogee mini dac or Benchmark DAC1
"Iain Churches" wrote in message . .. "Andy Evans" wrote in message oups.com... What they are confusing this with is their preference for an intentionally flawed but entirely pleasnt and relatively benign form of distortion. Nothing wrong with their listening preference but the presentation of this as inherently superior is utterly bogus. The idea that valves are simply "added distortion" and nothing else could only be made by somebody with a) very little knowledge of modern valve circuits and how they sound or b) somebody with cloth ears. A Swedish "very high end" dealer told me just recently: quote: " The very top of the audio market is totally dominated by tube amplifiers. Music lovers in this sector (many of who have speakers at 10k a pair) are highly discerning." No more so than some of us nearer the *bottom* of the pond, I would hope!! ;-) |
Apogee mini dac or Benchmark DAC1
Iain - these DHTs are quite a bit better than a 6SN7. I'd suggest you
try this for home use rather than studio at this stage, and see how you get on. the usual recommendation is the 26 because it's good and plentiful. Personally I find it warm (think 300b - but some colleagues like this fuller sound), so prefer the leaner sounds of the 30 and 31, which are cheaper than the more widely used 01A, 12A and such. There's a family resemblence anyway, so you won't go far wrong. I don't think it's neessary to splash out on the 71A or 10Y though they have their fans. There are a stack of European DHTs as well, and one or two octals, plus some double triodes (loctal, octal, 7 pin bases) which have a common cathode. Lastly there's the wire leadout miniature 5676. I have all the above. Email me if you want details of the filament supply we're currently using. We're trying to make some PCBs for the filamant supply, should come through in a month or two. Andy |
Apogee mini dac or Benchmark DAC1
"Keith G" wrote in message ... "Iain Churches" wrote in message . .. "Andy Evans" wrote in message oups.com... What they are confusing this with is their preference for an intentionally flawed but entirely pleasnt and relatively benign form of distortion. Nothing wrong with their listening preference but the presentation of this as inherently superior is utterly bogus. The idea that valves are simply "added distortion" and nothing else could only be made by somebody with a) very little knowledge of modern valve circuits and how they sound or b) somebody with cloth ears. A Swedish "very high end" dealer told me just recently: quote: " The very top of the audio market is totally dominated by tube amplifiers. Music lovers in this sector (many of who have speakers at 10k a pair) are highly discerning." No more so than some of us nearer the *bottom* of the pond, I would hope!! ;-) No indeed. But it illustrates that those with *both* impeccable taste *and* lashings of the elusive spondoolicks pick valve amps. For them, unlike the rest of us, it's not down to DIY, fettling or e.Bay:-)) Iain |
Apogee mini dac or Benchmark DAC1
"Wally" wrote If it's anybody's guess whether the recording is peerless to begin with, I put it to you that the notions 'improved upon' and 'modified' are not neccessarily mutually exclusive. Certainly no particular 'flavour' of circuitry will produce an impeccable result everytime when fed with varying quality of source material. The method I favour is to aim for neutrality in reproduction and accept such flaws as exist as they are rather than try to 'paint them out' and lose all the good bits in the process. To hell with neutrality. I aim for what I like the sound of. The problem here is the 'producers' (pros/retired pros/self-styled pros who aren't really pros/wannabee pros who never will be pros) can't even create a neutral product. Never mind that they should try to dictate what we, the consumers, do with it once we've bought it.... |
Apogee mini dac or Benchmark DAC1
"Iain Churches" wrote in message . .. "Arny Krueger" wrote in message . .. "Keith G" wrote in message What do you people play recorded music for - to be entertained and pleased Yeah, and there's a ton of music in this world that does not need to be wallpapered to sound good. or sit there with a notepad and write down what defects you *think* you can hear....?? That seems to be what you tube bigots do. Arny. Why do you choose to call people who use/enjoy tube amps "bigots" Is this in keeping with your new-born Christian beliefs? Standard 'Christian' behaviour - I never yet met a God-Botherer who wasn't *drenched* in hypocrisy.... |
Apogee mini dac or Benchmark DAC1
Iain Churches wrote: "Eeyore" wrote in message ... Nevertheless a mastering engineer may well 'equalise for CD' ( whatever that means ) and normalise listening levels to optimise the 'CD experience'. That's an 'artistic' decision. Sorry Graham. Can't agree. I attend several CD mastering sessions a month EQ and level "optimisation" (that's the correct term) are used solely to make the finished CD sound as loud as possible.This is a decision forced by commercial pressure, to which only certain sectors of the market are subject. It has nothing whatsoever to do with "art". That may be typical of widespread current practice but it's not the only way to do it. Graham |
Apogee mini dac or Benchmark DAC1
"Eeyore" wrote in message ... Iain Churches wrote: "Eeyore" wrote in message ... Nevertheless a mastering engineer may well 'equalise for CD' ( whatever that means ) and normalise listening levels to optimise the 'CD experience'. That's an 'artistic' decision. Sorry Graham. Can't agree. I attend several CD mastering sessions a month EQ and level "optimisation" (that's the correct term) are used solely to make the finished CD sound as loud as possible.This is a decision forced by commercial pressure, to which only certain sectors of the market are subject. It has nothing whatsoever to do with "art". That may be typical of widespread current practice but it's not the only way to do it. As I said, this applies to certain sectors of the market, and thankfully does not include the genre in which I work, classical and jazz. Iain |
Apogee mini dac or Benchmark DAC1
"Eeyore" wrote in message ... Keith G wrote: "Eeyore" wrote snip crap I really sometimes wonder what the audiophool nuts reckon audio professionals do for a living ? Well, according to some sources, they could turn one of Beethoven's bottled farts into his 10th Symphony if they wanted to, but let's not go there... Those sources haven't a clue. It does however sound like a popular audiophool misrepresentation. You keep using this word 'audiophool' - are you including me here?? The idea that Sound Engineers can turn some highly shaggable bimbo's toneless wailing into a number one hit comes as much from the media (TV programmes) as anywhere else... That's just fine. I've never had any issue with anyone who chooses to use electronics creatively to alter the listening experience to suit their taste as long as they're honest about it. Honest? What does offend me is those who present 'their way' as the only true one and are wholly dishonest about the methods they use and then present them as 'superior' to the path of neutral accuracy. I think you want to direct that toward the Denial Boys here - with their 'low distortion SS/digital is the only way to go' dogma. As to 'neutral accuracy', how many times do you need to be told it isn't the be-all and end-all for everyone here and that some of us discern/perceive a greater *realism* from what might well be regarded as a non-neutral, 'innacurate' method of reproduction...?? Let me put that simply and speak only for myself - I can do 'blameless' any time I want (I have all the ingredients), but I passed through that stage a long time ago. The route I have followed since has taken me to *far greater* pleasure than the flat, blurry, two-dimensional and *boring* sound that nice, safe, 'low distortion' SS kit on modern multiway speakers tends to produce - which is perfectly OK for movies, the telly or 'wallpaper radio', of course... (It obviously never did 'cut the mustard' for me for *music* or I wouldn't have bothered searching for summat better, would I? ;-) Neutral, as I've hinted at a couple of times isn't always maybe the 'easiest listening experience' but it can be a true revalation. 'Neutral' on SS kit would be OK if you could actually hear all the *detail* for a start....!! Do you have Joni Mitchell's Blue btw ? It has a number of flaws imho but it's well worth listening to 'straight'. I use it as one of my regular references as it happens. No, asitappens - I have a number of Joni Mitchell albums, but that isn't one of them. I'm not her greatest fan.... |
Apogee mini dac or Benchmark DAC1
"Keith G" wrote in message ... "Iain Churches" wrote in message . .. "Arny Krueger" wrote in message . .. "Keith G" wrote in message What do you people play recorded music for - to be entertained and pleased Yeah, and there's a ton of music in this world that does not need to be wallpapered to sound good. or sit there with a notepad and write down what defects you *think* you can hear....?? That seems to be what you tube bigots do. Arny. Why do you choose to call people who use/enjoy tube amps "bigots" Is this in keeping with your new-born Christian beliefs? Standard 'Christian' behaviour - I never yet met a God-Botherer who wasn't *drenched* in hypocrisy.... Or a seriously ****e driver.... |
Apogee mini dac or Benchmark DAC1
"Iain Churches" wrote in message . .. "Keith G" wrote in message ... "Iain Churches" wrote in message . .. "Andy Evans" wrote in message oups.com... What they are confusing this with is their preference for an intentionally flawed but entirely pleasnt and relatively benign form of distortion. Nothing wrong with their listening preference but the presentation of this as inherently superior is utterly bogus. The idea that valves are simply "added distortion" and nothing else could only be made by somebody with a) very little knowledge of modern valve circuits and how they sound or b) somebody with cloth ears. A Swedish "very high end" dealer told me just recently: quote: " The very top of the audio market is totally dominated by tube amplifiers. Music lovers in this sector (many of who have speakers at 10k a pair) are highly discerning." No more so than some of us nearer the *bottom* of the pond, I would hope!! ;-) No indeed. But it illustrates that those with *both* impeccable taste *and* lashings of the elusive spondoolicks pick valve amps. For them, unlike the rest of us, it's not down to DIY, fettling or e.Bay:-)) :-) |
Apogee mini dac or Benchmark DAC1
"Andy Evans" wrote in message oups.com... All it has to do is sound as *realistic* as possible for me - that's *my* realistic, not anyone else's and it definitely helps if I can hear *all* of the voices, *all* of the words (where applicable) and *all* of the instruments. Keith. Keith, you're definitely heading for one of my small-DHT preamps - I can give you all the kit bits cheap and you can assemble it. Don't ask me why, but these small DHTs have a clarity I don't find in any other amplification stage. You have a little treat in store. Andy OK. I have read the thread and Iain's dead right - this is temptation indeed! When I built the 2A3 LW SET I built a 'power amp only'version to avoid problems in the pre-amp stage (it was my first scratch build) and because I already had/have an EAR 834L Line Stage. The EAR has been boxed up ready for eBaying/posting for a while now (haven't got round to it yet) as Swim jumped on the sound for *veiled* every damn time I tried to use it!! The trouble with the 2A3 is that it does need a little pre-ing to prevent the need to push it too hard. Lately I have been using a nice Denon amp's pre section to do this with great effect and also the bonus of remote control for 'volume' &c. but what you suggest is very interesting.... Email me with some details and an idea of cost (pix too, if you have any) but bear in mind if I do have a go it will be the basis for a webpage like this! http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/trio...de_project.htm ;-) |
Apogee mini dac or Benchmark DAC1
"Keith G" wrote in message
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message ... "Keith G" wrote in message You've got more faith with some of these 'hot under the collar' types than I have Andy - I take a lot of what they say with a pinch of salt (large one). Most of 'em have never heard a valve amp and some of the others have only heard some old *legacy* struggler at best and seem to forget what some of the transistor equipment from the 70s could sound like..... And some of us jsut lately spent three days at a well-known high end audio show, listening to bunches and bunches of this crap. Did I say that it was crap? What crap - legacy valve amps or 70s transistor equipment? Actually, new production valve amps. Or are you saying there were a *lot* of new valve amps there? Yes. If there were it would tell us something - your not liking them means nothing to me, almost certainly nothing to the manufacturers or even the rest of the world probably....?? ;-) Fact is the matter is that almost nobody likes this crap - just a few poorly-educated, well-funded, obsessive-compulsives. |
Apogee mini dac or Benchmark DAC1
"Eeyore"
wrote in message Keith G wrote: "Arny Krueger" wrote in message ... "Keith G" wrote in message You've got more faith with some of these 'hot under the collar' types than I have Andy - I take a lot of what they say with a pinch of salt (large one). Most of 'em have never heard a valve amp and some of the others have only heard some old *legacy* struggler at best and seem to forget what some of the transistor equipment from the 70s could sound like..... And some of us jsut lately spent three days at a well-known high end audio show, listening to bunches and bunches of this crap. Did I say that it was crap? What crap - legacy valve amps 'Legacy' valve amps are currently being manufactured. or 70s transistor equipment? 70s transistor equipment was last manufactured in then ummm.... errrrr... 70s ! Or are you saying there were a *lot* of new valve amps there? If there were it would tell us something - your not liking them means nothing to me, almost certainly nothing to the manufacturers or even the rest of the world probably....?? ;-) There is essentially no 'new' tube design possible due to the serious fundamental limitations of the devices. Any significant advances terminated in the 50s. One irony is that there were very few commercial high-powered SETs until the last decade or two. By the time there were tubes that could handle enough power to be interesting, running audio amp output stages in push-pull had become quite the rage. |
Apogee mini dac or Benchmark DAC1
"Eeyore"
wrote in message Keith G wrote: does, he's on it all the time. I have a pair of great-sounding amps that are about 40 years old and the 2A3 SET I built a year or two back is based on a 1929 design...!! Have you ever tried say a well-designed mosfet amp for comparison ? A well-designed mosfet amp is going to have loop feedback and a resonably-low output impedance. The "Keithe G" market is high-output-Z amps that sound different with every different speaker they hook up, aside from the differences in the speakers themselves. |
Apogee mini dac or Benchmark DAC1
"Eeyore"
wrote in message Arny Krueger wrote: "Laurence Payne" lpayne1NOSPAM@dslDOTpipexDOTcom wrote in message On Sat, 09 Sep 2006 16:42:49 +0100, Eeyore wrote: There is precious litle 'modern' about any valve circuit. I learnt on them btw. I've no doubt you know valves from ( ?50s, 60s?, 70s?), but you'd be very surprised at how much things have changed. There has been no change whatever. Tube technology peaked in the early 50s. Not the function of the triode itself, which is well known, but the support circuitry is now quite complex - cascode active loads, constant current sinks etc. - a whole cuisine of modern ss devices and traditional stuff like glow tubes. It really is "nouvelle cuisine" if you pardon the expression. We're not talking Mullard circuits with EF86s and ECC83s any more. Indeed, toobists now use semiconductors to help cure the inherent flaws of thermionic devices. Well, make your mind up! Either valve circuits have changed or they haven't. No, the proper term for the use of semiconductors to help cure some of the inherent flaws of terminonic devices is "hybrid". There has been some advance in the design of hybrid circuits since the 1950s. Nor is the mixed use of semiconductors and thermionics in electronic equipment especially new either ! Agreed. A fair amount of the military equipment I worked on in the late 60s was hybrid. Some was designed that way from scratch, and some was due to the use of SS replacements for tubes. For example our 250-300 VDC power supplies were designed to use 300Bs as power regulators, but they were mostly replaced with SS modules that plugged into the same sockets. The impact of SS electronics on this gear was extreme. The tubed equipment tracked one target, weighed about 4 tons, used about 25 KW of 400 Hz 3 phase, and filled a dedicated trailer that barely fit under freeway bridges. Its current SS replacment sits on the bed of a HUMV, tracks 100's of targets concurrently, has about 5 times the range, and runs off a generator that a couple of guys can heft around. |
Apogee mini dac or Benchmark DAC1
"Iain Churches" wrote in message
"Andy Evans" wrote in message oups.com... What they are confusing this with is their preference for an intentionally flawed but entirely pleasnt and relatively benign form of distortion. Nothing wrong with their listening preference but the presentation of this as inherently superior is utterly bogus. The idea that valves are simply "added distortion" and nothing else could only be made by somebody with a) very little knowledge of modern valve circuits and how they sound or b) somebody with cloth ears. A Swedish "very high end" dealer told me just recently: quote: " The very top of the audio market is totally dominated by tube amplifiers. Music lovers in this sector (many of who have speakers at 10k a pair) are highly discerning." In short, he has a lot of respect for people that pay his way. Proves nothing. |
Apogee mini dac or Benchmark DAC1
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message ... "Keith G" wrote in message "Arny Krueger" wrote in message ... "Keith G" wrote in message You've got more faith with some of these 'hot under the collar' types than I have Andy - I take a lot of what they say with a pinch of salt (large one). Most of 'em have never heard a valve amp and some of the others have only heard some old *legacy* struggler at best and seem to forget what some of the transistor equipment from the 70s could sound like..... And some of us jsut lately spent three days at a well-known high end audio show, listening to bunches and bunches of this crap. Did I say that it was crap? What crap - legacy valve amps or 70s transistor equipment? Actually, new production valve amps. Or are you saying there were a *lot* of new valve amps there? Yes. If there were it would tell us something - your not liking them means nothing to me, almost certainly nothing to the manufacturers or even the rest of the world probably....?? ;-) Fact is the matter is that almost nobody likes this crap - just a few poorly-educated, well-funded, obsessive-compulsives. Denial of this magnitude is almost impressive, but your theories lose out to the *facts* reported by Iain, I'm sorry to say.... |
Apogee mini dac or Benchmark DAC1
"Keith G" wrote in message
"Arny Krueger" wrote snip ******** What do you people play recorded music for - to be entertained and pleased Yeah, and there's a ton of music in this world that does not need to be wallpapered to sound good. or sit there with a notepad and write down what defects you *think* you can hear....?? That seems to be what you tube bigots do. Yeah, right - I post a quick and dirty recording, you come on here and tell me how many times it clipped.... Just trying to explain why it sounded so bad. |
Apogee mini dac or Benchmark DAC1
"Keith G" wrote in message
"Eeyore" wrote in message ... Keith G wrote: "Arny Krueger" wrote snip ******** What do you people play recorded music for - to be entertained and pleased Yeah, and there's a ton of music in this world that does not need to be wallpapered to sound good. or sit there with a notepad and write down what defects you *think* you can hear....?? That seems to be what you tube bigots do. Yeah, right - I post a quick and dirty recording, you come on here and tell me how many times it clipped.... No he didn't. Yes he did, often - before your time.... Just trying to explain why it sounded bad. Keith had his training wheels on and eventually he learned how to make a fairly competent transcription of vinyl. |
Apogee mini dac or Benchmark DAC1
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message . .. "Iain Churches" wrote in message "Andy Evans" wrote in message oups.com... What they are confusing this with is their preference for an intentionally flawed but entirely pleasnt and relatively benign form of distortion. Nothing wrong with their listening preference but the presentation of this as inherently superior is utterly bogus. The idea that valves are simply "added distortion" and nothing else could only be made by somebody with a) very little knowledge of modern valve circuits and how they sound or b) somebody with cloth ears. A Swedish "very high end" dealer told me just recently: quote: " The very top of the audio market is totally dominated by tube amplifiers. Music lovers in this sector (many of who have speakers at 10k a pair) are highly discerning." In short, he has a lot of respect for people that pay his way. Proves nothing. *Denial* is the 'Christian Way', eh Arny? :-) |
Apogee mini dac or Benchmark DAC1
"Andy Evans" wrote in
message oups.com All it has to do is sound as *realistic* as possible for me - that's *my* realistic, not anyone else's and it definitely helps if I can hear *all* of the voices, *all* of the words (where applicable) and *all* of the instruments. Keith. Keith, you're definitely heading for one of my small-DHT preamps - I can give you all the kit bits cheap and you can assemble it. Don't ask me why, but these small DHTs have a clarity I don't find in any other amplification stage. You have a little treat in store. Andy DHT = Directly-Heated Triodes. They must be a treat to bias properly given that the cathode isn't all at the same potential. |
Apogee mini dac or Benchmark DAC1
"Iain Churches" wrote in message
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message . .. "Keith G" wrote in message What do you people play recorded music for - to be entertained and pleased Yeah, and there's a ton of music in this world that does not need to be wallpapered to sound good. or sit there with a notepad and write down what defects you *think* you can hear....?? That seems to be what you tube bigots do. Arny. Why do you choose to call people who use/enjoy tube amps "bigots" Is this in keeping with your new-born Christian beliefs? Just calling things what I see them to be. I guess Iain would prefer that I lie or obfuscate. |
Apogee mini dac or Benchmark DAC1
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message . .. "Eeyore" wrote in message Arny Krueger wrote: "Laurence Payne" lpayne1NOSPAM@dslDOTpipexDOTcom wrote in message On Sat, 09 Sep 2006 16:42:49 +0100, Eeyore wrote: There is precious litle 'modern' about any valve circuit. I learnt on them btw. I've no doubt you know valves from ( ?50s, 60s?, 70s?), but you'd be very surprised at how much things have changed. There has been no change whatever. Tube technology peaked in the early 50s. Not the function of the triode itself, which is well known, but the support circuitry is now quite complex - cascode active loads, constant current sinks etc. - a whole cuisine of modern ss devices and traditional stuff like glow tubes. It really is "nouvelle cuisine" if you pardon the expression. We're not talking Mullard circuits with EF86s and ECC83s any more. Indeed, toobists now use semiconductors to help cure the inherent flaws of thermionic devices. Well, make your mind up! Either valve circuits have changed or they haven't. No, the proper term for the use of semiconductors to help cure some of the inherent flaws of terminonic devices is "hybrid". There has been some advance in the design of hybrid circuits since the 1950s. Nor is the mixed use of semiconductors and thermionics in electronic equipment especially new either ! Agreed. A fair amount of the military equipment I worked on in the late 60s was hybrid. Some was designed that way from scratch, and some was due to the use of SS replacements for tubes. For example our 250-300 VDC power supplies were designed to use 300Bs as power regulators, but they were mostly replaced with SS modules that plugged into the same sockets. The impact of SS electronics on this gear was extreme. The tubed equipment tracked one target, weighed about 4 tons, used about 25 KW of 400 Hz 3 phase, and filled a dedicated trailer that barely fit under freeway bridges. Its current SS replacment sits on the bed of a HUMV, tracks 100's of targets concurrently, has about 5 times the range, and runs off a generator that a couple of guys can heft around. And all this relates to what, precisely....?? |
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