Apogee mini dac or Benchmark DAC1
 

Andy Evans wrote:

In my experience tube amp owners are one of the most contented
groups of people with an interest in audio and music. As Peter Lewis
put it, "Happiness is a warm cathode" :-)

Or - "If it ain't glowing, it ain't going"

Is that the best you've got to offer ?

Graham

Apogee mini dac or Benchmark DAC1
 

"Eeyore" wrote in
message ...


Keith G wrote:

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
"Iain Churches" wrote in message

"Andy Evans" wrote in
message
oups.com...
What they are confusing this with is their preference
for an intentionally flawed but
entirely pleasnt and relatively benign form of
distortion. Nothing wrong with their
listening preference but the presentation of this as
inherently superior is utterly
bogus.

The idea that valves are simply "added distortion" and
nothing else could only be made by somebody with a) very
little knowledge of modern valve circuits and how they
sound or b) somebody with cloth ears.


A Swedish "very high end" dealer told me just recently:
quote:

" The very top of the audio market is totally dominated
by tube amplifiers. Music lovers in this sector (many of
who have speakers at 10k a pair) are highly discerning."

In short, he has a lot of respect for people that pay his way.

Proves nothing.

*Denial* is the 'Christian Way', eh Arny? :-)

In truth what one high-end esoteric dealer says does indeed prove nothing.

It reflects the situation in his own location, amongst his own client-base.
I agree this may or may not be representative of the situation in other
regions, or as a whole.

I feel sure that if the dealer had said "tube amp sales are zero"
then both you and Arny would have both responded gleefully,
"There, you see! That proves it!"

Iain

Apogee mini dac or Benchmark DAC1
 

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
In article , Iain Churches
wrote:


A Swedish "very high end" dealer told me just recently: quote:

" The very top of the audio market is totally dominated by tube
amplifiers. Music lovers in this sector (many of who have speakers at
10k a pair) are highly discerning."

Was "top" a subjective judgement, or a comment on the prices and
his markup profits for "very high end" equipment? :-)

I think the mark-up is probably the same at all levels. one probably has to
give a better, more personal service (home demonstrations etc) at the
higher end of the market.


Afraid I don't have any 10k speakers. Do two pairs of ESLs count?[1]

Why not? :-)


Or would it be silly of me to confuse the price of the equipment with the
levels of musical enjoyment or 'discernment' of the listener?... ;-

Probably not. You get what you pay for. But as with most things,
beyond a certain point, improvement is subject to the law of diminishing
returns.

[1] Come to think of it, does a pair of ESL988's register as '10k'
in whatever monetary units you had in mind?

Well, living in an EMU country, the Euro comes naturally to me.
But given the silly prices in the UK, I suppose GBP 10k would be OK:-)


Would I be more discerning
if I emigrated to Zimbabwe? 8-]

No boss. Aah ha been there. Don't rekommend dat aat aal.

... or did you mean 10k Ohms, and
speakers which allow the user to avoid an output transformer on the
valve amp? ;-

No need to go to such lengths, you can drive a pair of 4 Ohm speakers
with an OTL.

Iain

Apogee mini dac or Benchmark DAC1
 

In article , Iain Churches
wrote:



I don't read hi-fi reviews, but listen carefully to what dealers tell
me. They are not trying to sell me anything, but they do have their
finger on the pulse, and know precisely what products are in demand. The
fact that in Stockholm one can buy a Krell at -30% while there is a
longish waiting list for Conrad Johnson, speaks volumes.

You seem to keep assuming pricing and markup practices indicate quality.
Are you not aware that both makers and dealers will have varying practices
in these matters? All part of the ways they try to compete and promote
sales of their products.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html

Apogee mini dac or Benchmark DAC1
 

"Eeyore" wrote in
message ...


Iain Churches wrote:

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
"Iain Churches" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
"Keith G" wrote in message


What do you people play recorded music for - to be
entertained and pleased

Yeah, and there's a ton of music in this world that does
not need to be wallpapered to sound good.

or sit there with a notepad and
write down what defects you *think* you can hear....??

That seems to be what you tube bigots do.

Arny. Why do you choose to call people who use/enjoy tube
amps "bigots" Is this in keeping with your new-born
Christian beliefs?

Just calling things what I see them to be. I guess Iain would prefer
that
I lie or obfuscate.


It hasn't bothered you up to now, Arny, so why change? :-)

In my experience tube amp owners are one of the most contented
groups of people with an interest in audio and music.
As Peter Lewis put it, "Happiness is a warm cathode" :-)

Maybe they're just easily contented ?

No Graham. Probably quite the reverse. The tube audio people that
I know seem to spend a long time looking for that last few percent in
the musical performance. That's why there is so much interest in
things like SET and open baffle speakers, horns etc.

But, if you don't care about the ability to differentiate between an
oboe and a cor Anglais then it doesn't really matter, does it?

I have made my choice, a homebrew EL34 PPP amp.
http://www.kolumbus.fi/iain.churches...em/C50_002.jpg


I am happy to leave you to make yours.

Best regards
Iain

Apogee mini dac or Benchmark DAC1
 

In article , Iain Churches
wrote:

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
In article , Iain
Churches wrote:


A Swedish "very high end" dealer told me just recently: quote:

" The very top of the audio market is totally dominated by tube
amplifiers. Music lovers in this sector (many of who have speakers at
10k a pair) are highly discerning."

Was "top" a subjective judgement, or a comment on the prices and his
markup profits for "very high end" equipment? :-)

I think the mark-up is probably the same at all levels.

I doubt that. Firstly, my experience is that the mark-up varies from one
maker's products to another, and the dealers in most countries will tweak
this as they see fit. Secondly because it will tend to be assessed as a
percentage of the price. This means a "very high end" price will generally
put more cash into the dealer's pocket than something at budget price. One
of the reasons dealers like to sell high end if they can gather potential
customers from a large enough area to be able to do so sucessfully.

one probably has to give a better, more personal service (home
demonstrations etc) at the higher end of the market.

Well, my experience may be out-of-date. However when I knew various dealers
via the biz, they were generally as happy to give good support service to
people who bought modest kit as the those who bought expensive kit. The
reason being that there were more of them, and it helped establish a decent
reputation. Also because they tended to want their customers to be happy.

OK, I knew a few sharks as well. These mainly focused on high price items
as I recall.

There were some dealers I would have regarded as being excellent and
reliable. But there were others where I would be inclined to count my
fingers after shaking hands with them. And who showed in practice that they
could not hear what they enthused about, as well as talking technobabble to
try and impress customers.

Or would it be silly of me to confuse the price of the equipment with
the levels of musical enjoyment or 'discernment' of the listener?...
;-

Probably not. You get what you pay for.

Do you? Always? :-) I know that it is likely that you will pay for what
you get. However I am less confident that you will get what you pay for -
particularly at prices well above the average. Unless, of course, you are
paying for a brand name and items with an impressive reputation. :-)

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html

Apogee mini dac or Benchmark DAC1
 

Iain Churches wrote:

"Eeyore" wrote
Keith G wrote:
"Arny Krueger" wrote
"Iain Churches" wrote
"Andy Evans" wrote

What they are confusing this with is their preference
for an intentionally flawed but
entirely pleasnt and relatively benign form of
distortion. Nothing wrong with their
listening preference but the presentation of this as
inherently superior is utterly
bogus.

The idea that valves are simply "added distortion" and
nothing else could only be made by somebody with a) very
little knowledge of modern valve circuits and how they
sound or b) somebody with cloth ears.


A Swedish "very high end" dealer told me just recently:
quote:

" The very top of the audio market is totally dominated
by tube amplifiers. Music lovers in this sector (many of
who have speakers at 10k a pair) are highly discerning."

In short, he has a lot of respect for people that pay his way.

Proves nothing.

*Denial* is the 'Christian Way', eh Arny? :-)

In truth what one high-end esoteric dealer says does indeed prove nothing.

It reflects the situation in his own location, amongst his own client-base.
I agree this may or may not be representative of the situation in other
regions, or as a whole.

I feel sure that if the dealer had said "tube amp sales are zero"
then both you and Arny would have both responded gleefully,
"There, you see! That proves it!"

It really wouldn't bother me quite frankly.

Graham

Apogee mini dac or Benchmark DAC1
 

"If it ain't glowing, it ain't going"

Is that the best you've got to offer ? Graham

The best I have to offer is a preamp kit with DHTs, filament supply,
stepped attenuator, case and power supply. Currently six people I know
are building preamps with DHTs as a result of hearing the difference in
their systems.

Apogee mini dac or Benchmark DAC1
 

Andy Evans wrote:

"If it ain't glowing, it ain't going"

Is that the best you've got to offer ? Graham

The best I have to offer is a preamp kit with DHTs, filament supply,
stepped attenuator, case and power supply. Currently six people I know
are building preamps with DHTs as a result of hearing the difference in
their systems.

So do tell me about this 'difference'.

Even better, what's the reason for it ?

Graham

Apogee mini dac or Benchmark DAC1
 

"Andy Evans" wrote in message
oups.com...
"If it ain't glowing, it ain't going"

Is that the best you've got to offer ? Graham

The best I have to offer is a preamp kit with DHTs, filament supply,
stepped attenuator, case and power supply. Currently six people I know
are building preamps with DHTs as a result of hearing the difference in
their systems.


And two more coming up:-)
Iain

Apogee mini dac or Benchmark DAC1
 

"Wally" wrote in message
...
Eeyore wrote:

They're quite different styles. What's your point ?

They are indeed quite different styles. It just so happens that I like
both
styles, probably in pretty equal measure. For me, the quality that one
example has over the other is that it is involving - it takes me
somewhere.
The lad doing the rock version of Pachabel's Canon can riff like a
good-un',
but it lacks soul. The guy with the uke takes the tune to a different
level,
another dimension.

I've played guitar for many years (less so in the last two or three), and
my
repertoire includes both of those styles. I can feel what the ukelele guy
is
doing - he's doing stuff that even he barely knows is happening
(especially
during the strummy passage near the end, where he's multiplying the rythm
strokes - totally tripped out). I know what that feels like because, when
I'm "on it", the same thing happens to me. By contrast, the Canon Kid
knows
exactly what he's doing, every note of the way.

You start by knowing what you're doing - you know the chord shapes, the
finger movements, the timing of the notes and strums, etc. You are overtly
conscious of the physical actions that are required to present a rendition
of a tune. Then you start listening to what you're doing without actually
thinking about the hand movements - you become your own entertainer with
the
unique ability of being able to make the music change
mood/feel/tempo/whatever - by mind power, essentially. Eventually, you
have
those moments where stuff comes out that you're barely aware that you, the
musician, are making happen - to the extent that you wonder if it really
is
you that's 'making it happen'.

There are peices I've been playing for 20 years that I *still* haven't
been
able to analyse in terms of the hand movements - I 'wrote' them, but I
couldn't tell you a damn thing about them, because 'I' wasn't paying that
sort of attention when they were written. Ever wondered why some artists
talk about being a conduit or channel? It's because they're so
disassociated
from the the conscious application of technique or theory (stuff literally
just comes out), that they're not even sure it's coming from themselves.

I'll give the kid two stars for effort - I like the tune, his technique is
generally clean, and his chord riffing is excellent (if you like tight as
****, bang-on-the-money rock riffing, that is). He's docked for lack of
imagination in phrasing (gets repetitive) and there's a dodgy edit at the
traffic sign thing where I suspect he's dubbed in a better concluding
passage. Fair play to the lad, it's a good effort. Give him another 10
years
and he might progress from player to musician.

The ukelele guy? Undoubted five star material. He gets the five stars for
the sheer ability to let go and give his subconscious free reign. When a
piece of music takes you to where the ukelele guy is, 'listening' - 'aural
observation' if you like - has nothing to do with it.

When you approach music with a perspective like this, stuff like
'accuracy'
and 'fidelity' just *don't matter*. It's about the emotional experience
that
the sound induces in you.

The Canon Kid is listening. The uke guy is living it.



That guy is a Flamenco player with an undersized guitar.....

I liked this one too:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l89JJ...elated&search=

None too smooth yet but he's got the right 'mouth movements'..!! :-)

Apogee mini dac or Benchmark DAC1
 

"Iain Churches" wrote in message
. ..

"Andy Evans" wrote in message
oups.com...
"If it ain't glowing, it ain't going"

Is that the best you've got to offer ? Graham

The best I have to offer is a preamp kit with DHTs, filament supply,
stepped attenuator, case and power supply. Currently six people I know
are building preamps with DHTs as a result of hearing the difference in
their systems.


And two more coming up:-)



Don't.....

ATM I'm winning these:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...MEWA%3AIT&rd=1


I'll be in the sodding doghouse again if I get 'em!!

(It ain't just the drivers, it's the 200+ quid's worth of board &c. you need
to go with 'em!! :-)

Apogee mini dac or Benchmark DAC1
 

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
In article , Keith G
wrote:

The problem here is the 'producers' (pros/retired pros/self-styled pros
who aren't really pros/wannabee pros who never will be pros) can't even
create a neutral product. Never mind that they should try to dictate
what we, the consumers, do with it once we've bought it....

Indeed. The snag, though, is that the results vary from one
CD/LP/broadcast
to another. I don't listen and think I can hear 'valves' or 'DHT' or
'solid
state'. I want each LP/CD/broadcast to sound as I'd expect for the
individual source.

The odd thing is that despite all the arguments, and the only valve in my
systems being a CRT for the display for video where appropriate, the
results tend to sound like music to me, and I enjoy them.

My experience is that when I listen to something like a prom from the RAH
it sounds to me a lot like what I heard when I attended them in person. So
much so that listening to the music gives me great pleasure. I don't seem
to need any valves, etc, to get this result.


Another shining example of 'it's not what you say, but the way that you say
it'....!!

I can only respond with my usual 'advice' - if you don't perceive any
benefit or advantage with valves, then don't use 'em!! ;-)

Apogee mini dac or Benchmark DAC1
 

In article , Iain Churches
wrote:

"Eeyore" wrote in
message ...


Maybe they're just easily contented ?

No Graham. Probably quite the reverse.

Is that an absolute assertion, or just a possibilty? :-)


The tube audio people that I
know seem to spend a long time looking for that last few percent in the
musical performance. That's why there is so much interest in things
like SET and open baffle speakers, horns etc.

But, if you don't care about the ability to differentiate between an
oboe and a cor Anglais then it doesn't really matter, does it?

Alternatively you may care, or be able to distinguish, but be able to do so
using equipment which does not make you wish to spend your time on anything
other than doing so by listening to and enjoying the music.

Could even be possible to do this using audio systems that have no valves,
or SETs, or... :-)

I can understand that some people feel dissatisfied with what they have,
though.

A few days ago I was enjoying a couple of DVDs of Brendel playing. Both
recorded in the same location, but on different occasions. I could easily
hear that the sounds differed - I think, because of the differences in mic
types and positions[1] - yet I still enjoyed the music. I guess I am easily
satisfied - having spent a few decades working at getting the audio systems
I use to deliver the results I enjoy. :-)

Although I admit that in my case, "open baffle" speakers do seem to help me
enjoy the music. Thank you, again, PJW.[2] ;-

Slainte,

Jim

[1] Although perhaps he was more plastered on one occasion than the
other. He plays better when plastered, and it did seem that the Liszt
gave the better stereo image, etc. :-)

[2] Who also moved on from valves to SS in due course and despite
being a keen musician tended then to be puzzled by the ongoing
arguments about valve amps. I can't recall him ever complaining
that without valves he couldn't tell an oboe from a cor any more...

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html

Apogee mini dac or Benchmark DAC1
 

In article , Keith G
wrote:

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...

My experience is that when I listen to something like a prom from the
RAH it sounds to me a lot like what I heard when I attended them in
person. So much so that listening to the music gives me great
pleasure. I don't seem to need any valves, etc, to get this result.


Another shining example of 'it's not what you say, but the way that you
say it'....!!

I can only respond with my usual 'advice' - if you don't perceive any
benefit or advantage with valves, then don't use 'em!! ;-)

I appreciate you giving me permission. :-)

But don't worry, I had no plans to, anyway.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html

Apogee mini dac or Benchmark DAC1
 

"Iain Churches" wrote in message


Arny. I don't know what the situation is in your part of
the world, but here in Scandinavia, where people probably
have more disposable income, and hopefully a higher level
of taste/expectation, tube amps have the majority market
share at the very top end of the market.

Whatever that means.

I am told that this group includes professional people,
doctors, lawyers, and many musicians, so they hardly fit
into your "poorly-educated, well-funded,
obsessive-compulsives" category.

Whatever that means.

Apogee mini dac or Benchmark DAC1
 

"Iain Churches" wrote in message

"Eeyore"
wrote
in message
...


Keith G wrote:

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
"Iain Churches" wrote in
message

"Andy Evans" wrote in
message
oups.com...
What they are confusing this with is their preference
for an intentionally flawed but
entirely pleasnt and relatively benign form of
distortion. Nothing wrong with their
listening preference but the presentation of this as
inherently superior is utterly
bogus.

The idea that valves are simply "added distortion"
and nothing else could only be made by somebody with
a) very little knowledge of modern valve circuits
and how they sound or b) somebody with cloth ears.


A Swedish "very high end" dealer told me just
recently: quote:

" The very top of the audio market is totally
dominated by tube amplifiers. Music lovers in this
sector (many of who have speakers at 10k a pair) are
highly discerning."

In short, he has a lot of respect for people that pay
his way. Proves nothing.

*Denial* is the 'Christian Way', eh Arny? :-)

In truth what one high-end esoteric dealer says does
indeed prove nothing.

It reflects the situation in his own location, amongst
his own client-base. I agree this may or may not be
representative of the situation in other regions, or as a
whole.

Or, what he wishes it to be.

The Scandanavians must be a gullable lot if their folklore doesn't include a
lot of jokes along the lines of:

Q: How can you tell that a salesman is lying?

A: His lips are moving.


I feel sure that if the dealer had said "tube amp sales
are zero" then both you and Arny would have both responded
gleefully, "There, you see! That proves it!"

Iain forgets that I own a Conrad-Johnson preamp.

Apogee mini dac or Benchmark DAC1
 

"Eeyore"
wrote
in message
Arny Krueger wrote:

"Andy Evans" wrote in
message
oups.com
All it has to do is sound as *realistic* as possible for
me - that's
*my* realistic, not anyone else's and it definitely
helps if I can hear
*all* of the voices, *all* of the words (where
applicable) and *all* of the instruments. Keith.

Keith, you're definitely heading for one of my small-DHT
preamps - I can give you all the kit bits cheap and you
can assemble it. Don't ask me why, but these small DHTs
have a clarity I don't find in any other amplification
stage. You have a little treat in store. Andy

DHT = Directly-Heated Triodes. They must be a treat to
bias properly given that the cathode isn't all at the
same potential.

I'm perplexed as to how a heater method can alter the
'sound' other than in the believer's mind.

DHTs could be prone to humming.

Either the
cathode's at the right temperature for emission or it
isn't.

Given how ancient most DHT devices are, they might not be the most linear
things around. The filaments could be more microphonic, too.

Apogee mini dac or Benchmark DAC1
 

"Iain Churches" wrote in message

"Eeyore"
wrote
in message
...


Iain Churches wrote:

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
"Iain Churches" wrote in
message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
"Keith G" wrote in message


What do you people play recorded music for - to be
entertained and pleased

Yeah, and there's a ton of music in this world that
does not need to be wallpapered to sound good.

or sit there with a notepad and
write down what defects you *think* you can
hear....??

That seems to be what you tube bigots do.

Arny. Why do you choose to call people who use/enjoy
tube amps "bigots" Is this in keeping with your
new-born Christian beliefs?

Just calling things what I see them to be. I guess
Iain would prefer that
I lie or obfuscate.


It hasn't bothered you up to now, Arny, so why change?
:-) In my experience tube amp owners are one of the most
contented groups of people with an interest in audio
and music. As Peter Lewis put it, "Happiness is a warm cathode" :-)

Maybe they're just easily contented ?

No Graham. Probably quite the reverse. The tube audio
people that I know seem to spend a long time looking for that last
few percent in the musical performance. That's why
there is so much interest in things like SET and open
baffle speakers, horns etc.
But, if you don't care about the ability to differentiate
between an oboe and a cor Anglais then it doesn't really
matter, does it?
I have made my choice, a homebrew EL34 PPP amp.
http://www.kolumbus.fi/iain.churches...em/C50_002.jpg


I am happy to leave you to make yours.

I moved past fiddling with that kind of crap in the late 1960s.

Apogee mini dac or Benchmark DAC1
 

I am less confident that you will get what you pay for - particularly
at prices well above the average. Unless, of course, you are paying for
a brand name and items with an impressive reputation Jim

I would be very wary of brand names and established products. They may
well be less innovative, use standard parts rather than higher grade
alternatives, and in many cases will be "built to a price" because
overheads and advertising may be built in to the margin.

Small companies may be more cutting edge (except in the case of complex
technology) and better value with less overheads e.g. with direct sales
via internet or even ebay shops. They may be more risky, but the best
should offer more for the price. How to know which are the best? This
is maybe what you mean by "reputation" in the form of reviews, but
since their products take less time to come to market they may have had
less opportunity to "impress".

Apogee mini dac or Benchmark DAC1
 

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
"Iain Churches" wrote in message


Arny. I don't know what the situation is in your part of
the world, but here in Scandinavia, where people probably
have more disposable income, and hopefully a higher level
of taste/expectation, tube amps have the majority market
share at the very top end of the market.

Whatever that means.

I am told that this group includes professional people,
doctors, lawyers, and many musicians, so they hardly fit
into your "poorly-educated, well-funded,
obsessive-compulsives" category.

Whatever that means.


Which parts of the two simple statements above are
beyond your level of comprehension, Arny?
I am sorry I cannot write in Afrikaans.

Iain

Apogee mini dac or Benchmark DAC1
 

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
In article , Iain Churches
wrote:



I don't read hi-fi reviews, but listen carefully to what dealers tell
me. They are not trying to sell me anything, but they do have their
finger on the pulse, and know precisely what products are in demand. The
fact that in Stockholm one can buy a Krell at -30% while there is a
longish waiting list for Conrad Johnson, speaks volumes.

You seem to keep assuming pricing and markup practices indicate quality.
Are you not aware that both makers and dealers will have varying practices
in these matters? All part of the ways they try to compete and promote
sales of their products.



I think the word *demand* (not quality per se) is of the essence here....???

Apogee mini dac or Benchmark DAC1
 

"Iain Churches" wrote in message
...

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
"Iain Churches" wrote in message


Arny. I don't know what the situation is in your part of
the world, but here in Scandinavia, where people probably
have more disposable income, and hopefully a higher level
of taste/expectation, tube amps have the majority market
share at the very top end of the market.

Whatever that means.

I am told that this group includes professional people,
doctors, lawyers, and many musicians, so they hardly fit
into your "poorly-educated, well-funded,
obsessive-compulsives" category.

Whatever that means.


Which parts of the two simple statements above are
beyond your level of comprehension, Arny?
I am sorry I cannot write in Afrikaans.



Oh, he knows well enough what you mean, Iain - he's in *denial* mode.....

PS: The PM6Cs are *mine*...!! ;-)

Apogee mini dac or Benchmark DAC1
 

Keith G wrote:

That guy is a Flamenco player with an undersized guitar.....

He's not a flamenco player.

It's not a guitar.

Looks like he is a pro musician, though...

http://www.jakeshimabukuro.com/bio.html


I liked this one too:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l89JJ...elated&search=

None too smooth yet but he's got the right 'mouth movements'..!! :-)

Issokay, but too much reverb, and not enough pinkie. Yer discerning
guitarist can count the number of fingers on his left hand and make use of
them all (including hooking the thumb over the *top* of the neck). Overall,
it lacks flow, as you say.


--
Wally
www.wally.myby.co.uk
If it ain't broke, fix it until it is.

Apogee mini dac or Benchmark DAC1
 

"Iain Churches" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
"Iain Churches" wrote in message


Arny. I don't know what the situation is in your part of
the world, but here in Scandinavia, where people
probably have more disposable income, and hopefully a
higher level of taste/expectation, tube amps have the
majority market share at the very top end of the market.

More disposable income than where? Scandanavia seems to have these problems
with energy costs and taxes, not to mention sort of stagnant economies.
Something about Scandanavian government spending hovering around half their
GDP. Ours is closer to 1/3.

Whatever that means.

I am told that this group includes professional people,
doctors, lawyers, and many musicians, so they hardly fit
into your "poorly-educated, well-funded,
obsessive-compulsives" category.

Whatever that means.

IOW. I get told all sorts of things by sales hacks. They have this
propensity to tell people what they want to hear.

Everybody knows there is not a lot of money in telling people what they
don't want to hear about the products they are in the market for.

Which parts of the two simple statements above are
beyond your level of comprehension, Arny?

Iain, your problem isn't comprehension, it is credibility.

I am sorry I cannot write in Afrikaans.

That's OK, I can't read it.

Apogee mini dac or Benchmark DAC1
 

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
In article , Iain Churches
wrote:



I don't read hi-fi reviews, but listen carefully to what dealers tell
me. They are not trying to sell me anything, but they do have their
finger on the pulse, and know precisely what products are in demand. The
fact that in Stockholm one can buy a Krell at -30% while there is a
longish waiting list for Conrad Johnson, speaks volumes.

You seem to keep assuming pricing and markup practices indicate quality.
Are you not aware that both makers and dealers will have varying practices
in these matters? All part of the ways they try to compete and promote
sales of their products.


Jim. It is a lot simpler than that. The Krells on offer from stock at -30%
are SS amplifiers. The CJs (at list price with a waiting period) are valve
models. Both have a 40% mark-up. I asked, "why would a dealer be
willing to forgo the larger part of his profit to move the Krells?" The
answer is that this segment of the market is becoming increasingly
dominated by valve equipment.

I am aware that what is happening locally, may not be representative
of the situation elsewhere. But despite the temptation to take home a
high end SS bargain, people are happy to wait for their valve amp:-)

Iain

Apogee mini dac or Benchmark DAC1
 

In article . com,
Andy
Evans wrote:
I am less confident that you will get what you pay for - particularly at
prices well above the average. Unless, of course, you are paying for a
brand name and items with an impressive reputation Jim

I would be very wary of brand names and established products.

Indeed, so would I in general. But the problem is that people do go into
shops with brand names and reputations already in mind that they have
picked up from the twaddle in magazines, etc. I knew more than one dealer
who regarded certain franchises as a license to print money. The items
'sold' with the customers often having no interest in (or opportunity to)
compare them with (often cheaper) alternatives. Given that some of these
products often had a higher price and a higher mark-up percentage, the
dealers did not rush to pursuade customers to listen to cheaper
alternatives.

They may well be less innovative, use standard parts rather than higher
grade alternatives, and in many cases will be "built to a price" because
overheads and advertising may be built in to the margin.

Alas, the above may or may not be so in any individual case, so a
generalisation about the above will be worthless without specific data on
the individual maker and model.

Small companies may be more cutting edge (except in the case of complex
technology) and better value with less overheads e.g. with direct sales
via internet or even ebay shops.

Comment as above. A small company may have more scope for being daring or
innovative. But they may lack the resources and understanding to produce a
good quality product. I can recall more than one example of a 'small new'
audio company that started with a single product that turned out to be a
firecracker despite getting good reviews. Reason being that they made
something they felt 'sounded good' but lacked the resources/understanding
to make them safe, reliable, and with consistent performance. Being
able to make a one-off or a few on a bench that work for a few months
is very different to making items on a regular basis that unknown
customers will be using in all kinds of situations for years.

A small company may also be more nimble at jumping onto the latest
fashionable bandwaggon, and grab sales from it before the fashion
passes. So as with large companies this is all case-by-case, and
generalisations may be useless.

They may be more risky, but the best should offer more for the price.

The snag is in "should". :-)

Particularly in audio where some items seem to have prices wildly higher
than others and people are told they are "very high end" or something
similar as if that justified it. Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't.

How to know which are the best? This is maybe what you mean by
"reputation" in the form of reviews, but since their products take less
time to come to market they may have had less opportunity to "impress".

In my experience what may 'impress' a reviewer may have little to do
with reality in some cases. But as people in the trade know well,
a good review often has a noticable impact on how people come into
the shops, asking to hear given items. As does a bad review. Up to
the makers and the magazine to time the appearance of a review wrt
the item being on sale.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html

Apogee mini dac or Benchmark DAC1
 

In article , Keith G
wrote:

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
In article , Iain
Churches wrote:



I don't read hi-fi reviews, but listen carefully to what dealers tell
me. They are not trying to sell me anything, but they do have their
finger on the pulse, and know precisely what products are in demand.
The fact that in Stockholm one can buy a Krell at -30% while there is
a longish waiting list for Conrad Johnson, speaks volumes.

You seem to keep assuming pricing and markup practices indicate
quality. Are you not aware that both makers and dealers will have
varying practices in these matters? All part of the ways they try to
compete and promote sales of their products.



I think the word *demand* (not quality per se) is of the essence
here....???

Indeed, that may well be so. You may note that the 'demand' for CDs is
larger than for LPs, larger for blockbuster movies than for concerts of
obscure classical music, etc. You may also note that the markup on items
varies according to their sales positioning and company practices.
None of this necessarily has much to do with quality.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html

Apogee mini dac or Benchmark DAC1
 

In article , Iain Churches
wrote:

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...

I don't read hi-fi reviews, but listen carefully to what dealers tell
me. They are not trying to sell me anything, but they do have their
finger on the pulse, and know precisely what products are in demand.
The fact that in Stockholm one can buy a Krell at -30% while there is
a longish waiting list for Conrad Johnson, speaks volumes.

You seem to keep assuming pricing and markup practices indicate
quality. Are you not aware that both makers and dealers will have
varying practices in these matters? All part of the ways they try to
compete and promote sales of their products.


Jim. It is a lot simpler than that. The Krells on offer from stock at
-30% are SS amplifiers. The CJs (at list price with a waiting period)
are valve models. Both have a 40% mark-up.

You don't say the actual prices or mark up as cash amounts. However I did
understand the above, but it does not change the points I was making.

I asked, "why would a dealer be willing to forgo the larger part of his
profit to move the Krells?" The answer is that this segment of the
market is becoming increasingly dominated by valve equipment.

IIUC you are saying that you asked why they don't try to sell the Krells
which would put less into their pockets, and that is the answer they gave.
Is that correct?

I am aware that what is happening locally, may not be representative of
the situation elsewhere. But despite the temptation to take home a high
end SS bargain, people are happy to wait for their valve amp:-)

I am sure that some of the people who visit 'high end' dealers do. Although
that may "speak volumes" as you phrased it about the attitudes of those who
go to 'high end' dealers, I can't see that it says a lot about either
Krell, or CJ, or the attitudes of those who find they can buy equipment and
enjoy music without visiting a 'high end' dealer. It seems to me that you
are making a comment about the attitudes of a self-selected grouping which
they perhaps had *before* they went into the shop - thus prompting their
decision to go to such a dealer in the first place.

Indeed, in such cases being told, "You can have A now, but you have
to wait for B as there is *so* much demand for them from people who
decided to wait rather than have A", might have some effect, I
suppose. Can't do any harm to let people think they are getting
something 'rare' and 'exclusive' and 'people think is worth
'waiting for'. More of a trophy to show off to your peers. :-)

I also wonder: Do the customers have to pay when they order? Thus
getting the cash into the dealer's bank account whilst they wait?
If so, it probably looks good to his bank manager and accountant.
:-)

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html

Apogee mini dac or Benchmark DAC1
 

Although perhaps (Brendel) was more plastered on one occasion than the
other. He plays better when plastered, and it did seem that the Liszt
gave the better stereo image, etc. :-) JLS

The music of Abbe Franz Liszt
If loszt would never be miszt.
They all stood aghaszt
As he played oh so faszt
But moszt of the time he was piszt.


When Josef Hofmann's career was in its last stage, when he'd apparently
play brilliantly before the interval then come back on stage tanked up,
a pupil of a friend of Hofmann related going to hear Hofmann play
Chopin and being amazed at his extraordinarily rapid tempo for one of
the more difficult etudes I think it was.
"Why" he asked his teacher, "does he play them so fast?"
"Because he can't play them any faster".

"He has fingers like lightning - they never strike the same place
twice!"

Apogee mini dac or Benchmark DAC1
 

On 2006-09-14, Andy Evans wrote:
Although perhaps (Brendel) was more plastered on one occasion than the
other. He plays better when plastered, and it did seem that the Liszt
gave the better stereo image, etc. :-) JLS

The music of Abbe Franz Liszt
If loszt would never be miszt.
They all stood aghaszt
As he played oh so faszt
But moszt of the time he was piszt.

When Josef Hofmann's career was in its last stage, when he'd apparently
play brilliantly before the interval then come back on stage tanked up,
a pupil of a friend of Hofmann related going to hear Hofmann play
Chopin and being amazed at his extraordinarily rapid tempo for one of
the more difficult etudes I think it was.
"Why" he asked his teacher, "does he play them so fast?"
"Because he can't play them any faster".

Yes, I too immediately thought of the Chopin études when Liszt's speed
was mentioned.

But then I thought of Ligeti's études which can be even more diabolical.

And then there's Nancarrow's studies for player piano which are
*definitely* too fast for human digits. Indeed some of them have been
described as sounding like "Wanda Landowska's harpsichord on speed."

--
John Phillips

Apogee mini dac or Benchmark DAC1
 

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...


[2] Who also moved on from valves to SS in due course and despite
being a keen musician tended then to be puzzled by the ongoing
arguments about valve amps. I can't recall him ever complaining
that without valves he couldn't tell an oboe from a cor any more...



Jim. A "cor" is the name commnonly used by musicians to
denote a French horn, (the instrument first developed in France
from the "cor de chasse") and marked "cor" on most symphonic
full scores.

I don't think anyone on this planet could fail to discern
between a French horn and an oboe:-)

Iain

Apogee mini dac or Benchmark DAC1
 

On Thu, 14 Sep 2006 14:03:51 +0300, "Iain Churches"
wrote:

[2] Who also moved on from valves to SS in due course and despite
being a keen musician tended then to be puzzled by the ongoing
arguments about valve amps. I can't recall him ever complaining
that without valves he couldn't tell an oboe from a cor any more...



Jim. A "cor" is the name commnonly used by musicians to
denote a French horn, (the instrument first developed in France
from the "cor de chasse") and marked "cor" on most symphonic
full scores.

I don't think anyone on this planet could fail to discern
between a French horn and an oboe:-)

Whereas "tell an oboe from a cor" clearly implies a cor anglais. Don't
be silly.

Apogee mini dac or Benchmark DAC1
 

"Laurence Payne" lpayne1NOSPAM@dslDOTpipexDOTcom wrote in message
...
On Thu, 14 Sep 2006 14:03:51 +0300, "Iain Churches"
wrote:

[2] Who also moved on from valves to SS in due course and despite
being a keen musician tended then to be puzzled by the ongoing
arguments about valve amps. I can't recall him ever complaining
that without valves he couldn't tell an oboe from a cor any more...



Jim. A "cor" is the name commnonly used by musicians to
denote a French horn, (the instrument first developed in France
from the "cor de chasse") and marked "cor" on most symphonic
full scores.

I don't think anyone on this planet could fail to discern
between a French horn and an oboe:-)

Whereas "tell an oboe from a cor" clearly implies a cor anglais. Don't
be silly.


Laurence.
Jim's post was brought to my attention by a French horn player in
a major symphony orchestra, a member of the music group to which
I belong. He did not think that accurately differentiating between the
two was "silly". Neither do I.

A cor Anglais is no more a cor than a saxophone is a horn:-)

regards
Iain

Apogee mini dac or Benchmark DAC1
 

On Thu, 14 Sep 2006 15:30:03 +0300, "Iain Churches"
wrote:

Jim. A "cor" is the name commnonly used by musicians to
denote a French horn, (the instrument first developed in France
from the "cor de chasse") and marked "cor" on most symphonic
full scores.

I don't think anyone on this planet could fail to discern
between a French horn and an oboe:-)

Whereas "tell an oboe from a cor" clearly implies a cor anglais. Don't
be silly.


Laurence.
Jim's post was brought to my attention by a French horn player in
a major symphony orchestra, a member of the music group to which
I belong. He did not think that accurately differentiating between the
two was "silly". Neither do I.

A cor Anglais is no more a cor than a saxophone is a horn:-)

Yes dear. Now re-examine the context and stop being silly.

Apogee mini dac or Benchmark DAC1
 

In article , Iain Churches
wrote:

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...


[2] Who also moved on from valves to SS in due course and despite
being a keen musician tended then to be puzzled by the ongoing
arguments about valve amps. I can't recall him ever complaining that
without valves he couldn't tell an oboe from a cor any more...


Jim. A "cor" is the name commnonly used by musicians to denote a
French horn, (the instrument first developed in France from the "cor de
chasse") and marked "cor" on most symphonic full scores.

Happy to accept what you say. That doesn't seem the usual practice in the
small collection of pocket scores I have, but I'd appreciate that full
professional scores may well be very different. Indeed, when I looked
just now in one of my old books on score reading, etc, some of the
examples show 'cor' for the horns, although others do not.

I just typed cor to be brief in what was an aside. Afraid I'd long
forgotten this practice. Probably never had any idea it was common.

I'd be surprised if anyone genuinely misunderstood my meaning, given the
context, but apologies if anyone was.

I don't think anyone on this planet could fail to discern between a
French horn and an oboe:-)

I think I'd agree. Particulary if they use full scores. :-)

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html

Apogee mini dac or Benchmark DAC1
 

Iain Churches wrote:

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
In article , Iain Churches
wrote:

I don't read hi-fi reviews, but listen carefully to what dealers tell
me. They are not trying to sell me anything, but they do have their
finger on the pulse, and know precisely what products are in demand. The
fact that in Stockholm one can buy a Krell at -30% while there is a
longish waiting list for Conrad Johnson, speaks volumes.

You seem to keep assuming pricing and markup practices indicate quality.
Are you not aware that both makers and dealers will have varying practices
in these matters? All part of the ways they try to compete and promote
sales of their products.

Jim. It is a lot simpler than that. The Krells on offer from stock at -30%
are SS amplifiers. The CJs (at list price with a waiting period) are valve
models. Both have a 40% mark-up. I asked, "why would a dealer be
willing to forgo the larger part of his profit to move the Krells?" The
answer is that this segment of the market is becoming increasingly
dominated by valve equipment.

I am aware that what is happening locally, may not be representative
of the situation elsewhere. But despite the temptation to take home a
high end SS bargain, people are happy to wait for their valve amp:-)

Is there any evidence to sugget that this isn't anything more or less than just
a 'cult' ?

Graham

Apogee mini dac or Benchmark DAC1
 

Iain Churches wrote:

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
In article , Iain Churches
wrote:

I don't read hi-fi reviews, but listen carefully to what dealers tell
me. They are not trying to sell me anything, but they do have their
finger on the pulse, and know precisely what products are in demand. The
fact that in Stockholm one can buy a Krell at -30% while there is a
longish waiting list for Conrad Johnson, speaks volumes.

You seem to keep assuming pricing and markup practices indicate quality.
Are you not aware that both makers and dealers will have varying practices
in these matters? All part of the ways they try to compete and promote
sales of their products.

Jim. It is a lot simpler than that. The Krells on offer from stock at -30%
are SS amplifiers. The CJs (at list price with a waiting period) are valve
models. Both have a 40% mark-up. I asked, "why would a dealer be
willing to forgo the larger part of his profit to move the Krells?" The
answer is that this segment of the market is becoming increasingly
dominated by valve equipment.

I am aware that what is happening locally, may not be representative
of the situation elsewhere. But despite the temptation to take home a
high end SS bargain, people are happy to wait for their valve amp:-)

Ppl also buy Rolexes despite the fact that a Casio or Sekonda will tell you the
time just as well for 1/100 the price or less.

What rich ppl buy is no guide of real worth at all.

They just do it because they can.

Graham

Apogee mini dac or Benchmark DAC1
 

"Laurence Payne" lpayne1NOSPAM@dslDOTpipexDOTcom wrote in message
...
On Thu, 14 Sep 2006 15:30:03 +0300, "Iain Churches"
wrote:

Jim. A "cor" is the name commnonly used by musicians to
denote a French horn, (the instrument first developed in France
from the "cor de chasse") and marked "cor" on most symphonic
full scores.

I don't think anyone on this planet could fail to discern
between a French horn and an oboe:-)

Whereas "tell an oboe from a cor" clearly implies a cor anglais. Don't
be silly.



Laurence.
Jim's post was brought to my attention by a French horn player in
a major symphony orchestra, a member of the music group to which
I belong. He did not think that accurately differentiating between the
two was "silly". Neither do I.

A cor Anglais is no more a cor than a saxophone is a horn:-)

Yes dear. Now re-examine the context and stop being silly.


Laurence. Lighten up a little. Did you not see the smiley
which ended both my posts? If the lines written by Jim were
from anyone else, they would have probably passed un-noticed.
But Jim is renowned for his accuracy in writing, and expects
the same from others.

One more thing. Please do not call me "dear", unless of course
you are a female in your mid 30s, tall, blonde, beautiful and
musically gifted:-)

Regards
Iain

Apogee mini dac or Benchmark DAC1
 

Jim Lesurf wrote:
In article , Iain Churches
wrote:

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...


[2] Who also moved on from valves to SS in due course and despite
being a keen musician tended then to be puzzled by the ongoing
arguments about valve amps. I can't recall him ever complaining that
without valves he couldn't tell an oboe from a cor any more...


Jim. A "cor" is the name commnonly used by musicians to denote a
French horn, (the instrument first developed in France from the "cor de
chasse") and marked "cor" on most symphonic full scores.

Happy to accept what you say. That doesn't seem the usual practice in the
small collection of pocket scores I have, but I'd appreciate that full
professional scores may well be very different. Indeed, when I looked
just now in one of my old books on score reading, etc, some of the
examples show 'cor' for the horns, although others do not.

I just typed cor to be brief in what was an aside. Afraid I'd long
forgotten this practice. Probably never had any idea it was common.

I'd be surprised if anyone genuinely misunderstood my meaning, given the
context, but apologies if anyone was.


James! You of all people must appreciate that accuracy is all and
context is nowt after the stern telling off* you gave me recently :-)

Rob

*watts, hours, joules per second per hour per day and so forth. A friend
(a proper scientist no less, although a polymer scientist) recently in
conversation, happened to say 'watts per hour', and I politely but
firmly corrected him. 'Pedant, you know what I mean', was what I got
back - the look on his face when I explained that one academic, and
another know-all, would actually die before understanding the meaning :-)