The shite wot is writ here...
 

There are a few 'wiseacres' here that know it all and will trot out the
stale, old 'FR drivers in horns have no top or bottom octave' hearsay
horse****.

Judge for yourselves - here are two 'identical' clips (end of one track,
beginning of another) of extremely complex/crowded music recorded OPEN MIC
with only a peewee little lapel mic (all I got) with digital/SS everything
except the power amp on the EX3 clip, which is 300B SET valve. No editing
whatsoever, other than a Fade In and Out at the ends to lessen the shock!

This clip is the Lowther PM6C drivers in the Jericho cabinet (10.5 Mb):

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/Clip%20PM6C.mp3

This one is the Lowther EX3 drivers in the 'InFidelio' cabinet (10.5):

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/Clip%20EX3.mp3

It's a job for decent headphones - my computer setup can't resolve the
detail and smart people will overlook the nasty (computer) recording noises
and make the necessary allowance for MP3 compression. Needless to say these
recordings are not the 'Full Monty' (not all that I hear) and a bit
monotonous in the bass, but they will give you some idea - it would be easy
to post summat a lot more sonorous, 'musical' and tinkly, but that wouldn't
prove the point.....

Not much to *enjoy* here, I'm sorry to say - a tough mission*, should you
choose to accept it!

Comments/criticism welcome as always.


* But not *impossible*....!! ;-)

The shite wot is writ here...
 

On Sun, 24 Sep 2006 15:10:37 +0100, "Keith G"
wrote:


There are a few 'wiseacres' here that know it all and will trot out the
stale, old 'FR drivers in horns have no top or bottom octave' hearsay
horse****.

Judge for yourselves - here are two 'identical' clips (end of one track,
beginning of another) of extremely complex/crowded music recorded OPEN MIC
with only a peewee little lapel mic (all I got) with digital/SS everything
except the power amp on the EX3 clip, which is 300B SET valve. No editing
whatsoever, other than a Fade In and Out at the ends to lessen the shock!

This clip is the Lowther PM6C drivers in the Jericho cabinet (10.5 Mb):

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/Clip%20PM6C.mp3

This one is the Lowther EX3 drivers in the 'InFidelio' cabinet (10.5):

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/Clip%20EX3.mp3

It's a job for decent headphones - my computer setup can't resolve the
detail and smart people will overlook the nasty (computer) recording noises
and make the necessary allowance for MP3 compression. Needless to say these
recordings are not the 'Full Monty' (not all that I hear) and a bit
monotonous in the bass, but they will give you some idea - it would be easy
to post summat a lot more sonorous, 'musical' and tinkly, but that wouldn't
prove the point.....

Not much to *enjoy* here, I'm sorry to say - a tough mission*, should you
choose to accept it!

Comments/criticism welcome as always.


* But not *impossible*....!! ;-)


Well, you haven't helped your case any here, Keith. These clips both
bear out the idea that top and bottom octaves are missing. There is
nothing significant below 60Hz, and they resemble the side of a cliff
above about 10kHz. Whether that is to do with the speaker, source
material or mic is tricky to say, but we work with what we have.

Now - details. The PM6es come out a couple of dBs louder than the EXes
- enough in fact to cause quite a lot of clipping (never wanted when
you are trying to assess top octave performance). Is that just the
volume settings on the amps? I guess it is.

d

--
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

The shite wot is writ here...
 

"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 24 Sep 2006 15:10:37 +0100, "Keith G"
wrote:


There are a few 'wiseacres' here that know it all and will trot out the
stale, old 'FR drivers in horns have no top or bottom octave' hearsay
horse****.

Judge for yourselves - here are two 'identical' clips (end of one track,
beginning of another) of extremely complex/crowded music recorded OPEN MIC
with only a peewee little lapel mic (all I got) with digital/SS everything
except the power amp on the EX3 clip, which is 300B SET valve. No editing
whatsoever, other than a Fade In and Out at the ends to lessen the shock!

This clip is the Lowther PM6C drivers in the Jericho cabinet (10.5 Mb):

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/Clip%20PM6C.mp3

This one is the Lowther EX3 drivers in the 'InFidelio' cabinet (10.5):

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/Clip%20EX3.mp3

It's a job for decent headphones - my computer setup can't resolve the
detail and smart people will overlook the nasty (computer) recording
noises
and make the necessary allowance for MP3 compression. Needless to say
these
recordings are not the 'Full Monty' (not all that I hear) and a bit
monotonous in the bass, but they will give you some idea - it would be
easy
to post summat a lot more sonorous, 'musical' and tinkly, but that
wouldn't
prove the point.....

Not much to *enjoy* here, I'm sorry to say - a tough mission*, should you
choose to accept it!

Comments/criticism welcome as always.


* But not *impossible*....!! ;-)


Well, you haven't helped your case any here, Keith. These clips both
bear out the idea that top and bottom octaves are missing. There is
nothing significant below 60Hz, and they resemble the side of a cliff
above about 10kHz. Whether that is to do with the speaker, source
material or mic is tricky to say, but we work with what we have.

Now - details. The PM6es come out a couple of dBs louder than the EXes
- enough in fact to cause quite a lot of clipping (never wanted when
you are trying to assess top octave performance). Is that just the
volume settings on the amps? I guess it is.



OK, the flames are licking round my willy and I can't get the fekkin' canopy
open!! :-[

Assuming I get out in time, later/later (or maybe even tomorrow) I will
record a track from an 'enhancer disk' which sweeps from 20 to 20,480 Hz at
the rate of + one octave every 12 seconds. This track is 2:02 long - I can
hear (feel) it immediately (on the PM6Cs at least - just checked) and
eventually lose it at 1:52 - the Vivanco EM216 lapel mic I'm using ain't
*ever* going to get the low stuff, but I'll give it a go!

Thanks for your response, Don - *always* (really *always*) useful!!

The shite wot is writ here...
 

On Sun, 24 Sep 2006 16:26:00 +0100, "Keith G"
wrote:


Assuming I get out in time, later/later (or maybe even tomorrow) I will
record a track from an 'enhancer disk' which sweeps from 20 to 20,480 Hz at
the rate of + one octave every 12 seconds.

Oh you really aren't going to like the look of what that shows. Rooms
are just horrible.

d

--
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

The shite wot is writ here...
 

In article ,
says...

There are a few 'wiseacres' here that know it all and will trot out the
stale, old 'FR drivers in horns have no top or bottom octave' hearsay
horse****.

Judge for yourselves - here are two 'identical' clips (end of one track,
beginning of another) of extremely complex/crowded music recorded OPEN MIC
with only a peewee little lapel mic

Never mind the width.. What are the tracks Keith ?

T.

The shite wot is writ here...
 

"Tony Gartshore" wrote in message
...
In article ,
says...

There are a few 'wiseacres' here that know it all and will trot out the
stale, old 'FR drivers in horns have no top or bottom octave' hearsay
horse****.

Judge for yourselves - here are two 'identical' clips (end of one track,
beginning of another) of extremely complex/crowded music recorded OPEN
MIC
with only a peewee little lapel mic

Never mind the width.. What are the tracks Keith ?


No idea atm, Tony (and I'm late for outta here) - they are the end and
beginning of two consecutive trax on the 'The Abduction Of The Art Of Noise'
CD.

I could find them later....??

The shite wot is writ here...
 

Don Pearce wrote:
On Sun, 24 Sep 2006 16:26:00 +0100, "Keith G"
wrote:


Assuming I get out in time, later/later (or maybe even tomorrow) I will
record a track from an 'enhancer disk' which sweeps from 20 to 20,480 Hz at
the rate of + one octave every 12 seconds.


Oh you really aren't going to like the look of what that shows. Rooms
are just horrible.

d


You may be better using white/pink noise Keith, single tones will just
show all sorts of peaks that just don't matter.

If you haven't any to hand, I put some wav's you for you to grab.

--
Nick

The shite wot is writ here...
 

"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 24 Sep 2006 16:26:00 +0100, "Keith G"
wrote:


Assuming I get out in time, later/later (or maybe even tomorrow) I will
record a track from an 'enhancer disk' which sweeps from 20 to 20,480 Hz
at
the rate of + one octave every 12 seconds.

Oh you really aren't going to like the look of what that shows. Rooms
are just horrible.


OK, this is the CD track I intend to use - let me know if there's anything
unsuitable about it?

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/Tone%20Sweep.mp3


Also, can you confirm the start frequency - I have no trouble hearing it
from the very start, even on the computer setup with 2.5 inch drivers...??

Right, orf aht for a while now....

The shite wot is writ here...
 

"Nick Gorham" wrote in message
...
Don Pearce wrote:
On Sun, 24 Sep 2006 16:26:00 +0100, "Keith G"
wrote:


Assuming I get out in time, later/later (or maybe even tomorrow) I will
record a track from an 'enhancer disk' which sweeps from 20 to 20,480 Hz
at the rate of + one octave every 12 seconds.


Oh you really aren't going to like the look of what that shows. Rooms
are just horrible.

d


You may be better using white/pink noise Keith, single tones will just
show all sorts of peaks that just don't matter.


Hmm, the next track is "Like 11 but with band-limited noise added. Sometimes
easier to use." - would this be better??


If you haven't any to hand, I put some wav's you for you to grab.


OK...

The shite wot is writ here...
 

On Sun, 24 Sep 2006 17:17:13 +0100, "Keith G"
wrote:


"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 24 Sep 2006 16:26:00 +0100, "Keith G"
wrote:


Assuming I get out in time, later/later (or maybe even tomorrow) I will
record a track from an 'enhancer disk' which sweeps from 20 to 20,480 Hz
at
the rate of + one octave every 12 seconds.

Oh you really aren't going to like the look of what that shows. Rooms
are just horrible.


OK, this is the CD track I intend to use - let me know if there's anything
unsuitable about it?

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/Tone%20Sweep.mp3


Also, can you confirm the start frequency - I have no trouble hearing it
from the very start, even on the computer setup with 2.5 inch drivers...??

Right, orf aht for a while now....




It starts out at 20Hz OK, but it really is unsuitable for the job. It
will spark off every standing wave in the room, and you really will be
shocked at how lumpy it is. Take up Nick's offer - it will be miles
better.

That sort of sweep is really only for internal testing of equipment,
not for rooms.

d

--
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

The shite wot is writ here...
 

Keith G wrote:


OK...

Here you go

http://www.lurcher.org/nick/audio/ob/white.wav
http://www.lurcher.org/nick/audio/ob/pink.wav

--
Nick

The shite wot is writ here...
 

In article ,
Keith G wrote:
Judge for yourselves - here are two 'identical' clips (end of one track,
beginning of another) of extremely complex/crowded music recorded OPEN
MIC with only a peewee little lapel mic (all I got) with digital/SS
everything except the power amp on the EX3 clip, which is 300B SET
valve. No editing whatsoever, other than a Fade In and Out at the ends
to lessen the shock!

Without even listening, Keith, do yourself a favour and get a half decent
mic for this sort of test.

Lapel mics have a tailored frequency response to help with the fact that
they are in a poor position for speech. They have bass rolloff to counter
chest resonance, and mid range boost to try and improve intelligibility.
And often nothing at all at the HF end since it isn't necessary.

--
*Filthy stinking rich -- well, two out of three ain't bad

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

The shite wot is writ here...
 

In article ,
Keith G wrote:
the Vivanco EM216 lapel mic I'm using ain't
*ever* going to get the low stuff, but I'll give it a go!

Just have a look at its frequency response...

http://www.lagom.nl/misc/skytronic.html

--
*How's my driving? Call 999*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

The shite wot is writ here...
 

In article ,
says...

"Tony Gartshore" wrote in message
...
In article ,
says...

There are a few 'wiseacres' here that know it all and will trot out the
stale, old 'FR drivers in horns have no top or bottom octave' hearsay
horse****.

Judge for yourselves - here are two 'identical' clips (end of one track,
beginning of another) of extremely complex/crowded music recorded OPEN
MIC
with only a peewee little lapel mic

Never mind the width.. What are the tracks Keith ?


No idea atm, Tony (and I'm late for outta here) - they are the end and
beginning of two consecutive trax on the 'The Abduction Of The Art Of Noise'
CD.

I could find them later....??

Thanks Keith, but that's enough to go on.. Explains why they sound
familiar and yet not at the same time..

T.

The shite wot is writ here...
 

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
Keith G wrote:

Judge for yourselves - here are two 'identical' clips (end of one track,
beginning of another) of extremely complex/crowded music recorded OPEN
MIC with only a peewee little lapel mic (all I got) with digital/SS
everything except the power amp on the EX3 clip, which is 300B SET
valve. No editing whatsoever, other than a Fade In and Out at the ends
to lessen the shock!


Without even listening, Keith, do yourself a favour and get a half decent
mic for this sort of test.


If its of any use Keith, I can lend you a Behringer ECM8000 and home
made pre if you wanted to play further. I don't need it until I get a
couple of inductors wound.

--
Nick

The shite wot is writ here...
 

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Keith G wrote:
Judge for yourselves - here are two 'identical' clips (end of one track,
beginning of another) of extremely complex/crowded music recorded OPEN
MIC with only a peewee little lapel mic (all I got) with digital/SS
everything except the power amp on the EX3 clip, which is 300B SET
valve. No editing whatsoever, other than a Fade In and Out at the ends
to lessen the shock!

Without even listening, Keith, do yourself a favour and get a half decent
mic for this sort of test.

Lapel mics have a tailored frequency response to help with the fact that
they are in a poor position for speech. They have bass rolloff to counter
chest resonance, and mid range boost to try and improve intelligibility.
And often nothing at all at the HF end since it isn't necessary.



OK, point(s) taken - my problem is I wouldn't know where to even start.
Every time I Google microphones I end up he

http://www.microphones.ru/

Then he

http://www.microphones.ru/downloads.htm

....and then get hung up on the downloads! (A couple of the topmost links
don't work, but the ones that do are so *beguiling* - start from the
bottom....!!! :-)


But I'm open to suggestions, Plowie - the ideal mic plugs straight into the
computer I suppose, but summat like this does have a certain appeal:

http://www.oktava-online.com/mkl2500.htm

Would that be suitable for piano recordings?? :-)

PS. Forget stuff like this:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/NEUMANN-SM69-S...QQcmdZViewItem

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/MANLEY-REFEREN...QQcmdZViewItem

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Neumann-M147-T...QQcmdZViewItem

:-)


But an opinion on these would be appreciated...???

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/MXL-V77-Tube-C...QQcmdZViewItem

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/NEW-ART-Tube-M...QQcmdZViewItem

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...keT rack=true

The shite wot is writ here...
 

"Nick Gorham" wrote in message
...
Keith G wrote:


OK...

Here you go

http://www.lurcher.org/nick/audio/ob/white.wav
http://www.lurcher.org/nick/audio/ob/pink.wav


OK, got those - ta!

But I'm not sure what use they are?? I merely wanted to demonstrate the
'dynamic range' of the Lowthers as I *hear* it - obviously, it ain't gonna
happen on the lapel mic!!

The shite wot is writ here...
 

"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 24 Sep 2006 17:17:13 +0100, "Keith G"
wrote:


"Don Pearce" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 24 Sep 2006 16:26:00 +0100, "Keith G"
wrote:


Assuming I get out in time, later/later (or maybe even tomorrow) I will
record a track from an 'enhancer disk' which sweeps from 20 to 20,480 Hz
at
the rate of + one octave every 12 seconds.

Oh you really aren't going to like the look of what that shows. Rooms
are just horrible.


OK, this is the CD track I intend to use - let me know if there's anything
unsuitable about it?

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/Tone%20Sweep.mp3


Also, can you confirm the start frequency - I have no trouble hearing it
from the very start, even on the computer setup with 2.5 inch drivers...??

Right, orf aht for a while now....




It starts out at 20Hz OK, but it really is unsuitable for the job. It
will spark off every standing wave in the room, and you really will be
shocked at how lumpy it is. Take up Nick's offer - it will be miles
better.

That sort of sweep is really only for internal testing of equipment,
not for rooms.


OK, forget that then. It looks like I'm going to have get summat sorted out
on the mic front.

The shite wot is writ here...
 

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Keith G wrote:
the Vivanco EM216 lapel mic I'm using ain't
*ever* going to get the low stuff, but I'll give it a go!

Just have a look at its frequency response...

http://www.lagom.nl/misc/skytronic.html



OK, even I can see that ain't too *flat*!! (See other post re mics.)

That little Vivanco mic was virtually FOC from Glenn Booth - one the
'missing' from here these days!

:-(

The shite wot is writ here...
 

"Tony Gartshore" wrote


Never mind the width.. What are the tracks Keith ?


No idea atm, Tony (and I'm late for outta here) - they are the end and
beginning of two consecutive trax on the 'The Abduction Of The Art Of
Noise'
CD.

I could find them later....??

Thanks Keith, but that's enough to go on.. Explains why they sound
familiar and yet not at the same time..


It's a compilation of AON remixes by various artists:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Abduction-Ar...e=UTF8&s=music


I rate 60% of the trax good, 40% less so, but none of them *bad*...!!

The shite wot is writ here...
 

"Nick Gorham" wrote in message
...
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
Keith G wrote:

Judge for yourselves - here are two 'identical' clips (end of one track,
beginning of another) of extremely complex/crowded music recorded OPEN
MIC with only a peewee little lapel mic (all I got) with digital/SS
everything except the power amp on the EX3 clip, which is 300B SET
valve. No editing whatsoever, other than a Fade In and Out at the ends
to lessen the shock!


Without even listening, Keith, do yourself a favour and get a half decent
mic for this sort of test.


If its of any use Keith, I can lend you a Behringer ECM8000 and home made
pre if you wanted to play further. I don't need it until I get a couple of
inductors wound.


Thanks Nick, if I lived round the corner I'd be delighted to take you up on
the kind offer, but I guess I gotta get summat sorted out - not for
recording speakers as such (although that is good fun) but there's the piano
recordings to be done some time in the near(ish) future!

The shite wot is writ here...
 

Keith G wrote:

http://www.oktava-online.com/mkl2500.htm

Would that be suitable for piano recordings?? :-)

That's something like 450 quid (plus taxes?). I'm no expert, but I'm sure
you could spend far less and still get a big improvement over the tie-clip
mic.


--
Wally
www.wally.myby.co.uk
Stress: You wake up screaming and realise you haven't fallen asleep yet.

The shite wot is writ here...
 

On Sun, 24 Sep 2006 21:22:00 +0100, "Keith G"
wrote:


"Nick Gorham" wrote in message
.. .
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
Keith G wrote:

Judge for yourselves - here are two 'identical' clips (end of one track,
beginning of another) of extremely complex/crowded music recorded OPEN
MIC with only a peewee little lapel mic (all I got) with digital/SS
everything except the power amp on the EX3 clip, which is 300B SET
valve. No editing whatsoever, other than a Fade In and Out at the ends
to lessen the shock!


Without even listening, Keith, do yourself a favour and get a half decent
mic for this sort of test.


If its of any use Keith, I can lend you a Behringer ECM8000 and home made
pre if you wanted to play further. I don't need it until I get a couple of
inductors wound.


Thanks Nick, if I lived round the corner I'd be delighted to take you up on
the kind offer, but I guess I gotta get summat sorted out - not for
recording speakers as such (although that is good fun) but there's the piano
recordings to be done some time in the near(ish) future!


The Behringer would be a good choice. It is part of the armoury of
most recordists because it is just so flat and faultless. Other mics
have "deliberate" limps and bumps that are used to accentuate various
sonic characteristics. The only real failing of the Behringer is that
it is a bit noisy because of the small diaphragm. That only matters on
very quiet sources though. Of course the price doesn't hurt too much
either.

Those other mics you are discussing with Dave aren't suitable for
plugging straight into a PC - they need a pre-amp. If you want to go
that route, Behringer is your friend again. You can get a UB802 mixer
for about £40. I bought one thinking I might use it once a month, but
I find it constantly handy.

d

--
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

The shite wot is writ here...
 

"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 24 Sep 2006 21:22:00 +0100, "Keith G"
wrote:


"Nick Gorham" wrote in message
. ..
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
Keith G wrote:

Judge for yourselves - here are two 'identical' clips (end of one
track,
beginning of another) of extremely complex/crowded music recorded OPEN
MIC with only a peewee little lapel mic (all I got) with digital/SS
everything except the power amp on the EX3 clip, which is 300B SET
valve. No editing whatsoever, other than a Fade In and Out at the ends
to lessen the shock!


Without even listening, Keith, do yourself a favour and get a half
decent
mic for this sort of test.


If its of any use Keith, I can lend you a Behringer ECM8000 and home
made
pre if you wanted to play further. I don't need it until I get a couple
of
inductors wound.


Thanks Nick, if I lived round the corner I'd be delighted to take you up
on
the kind offer, but I guess I gotta get summat sorted out - not for
recording speakers as such (although that is good fun) but there's the
piano
recordings to be done some time in the near(ish) future!


The Behringer would be a good choice. It is part of the armoury of
most recordists because it is just so flat and faultless. Other mics
have "deliberate" limps and bumps that are used to accentuate various
sonic characteristics. The only real failing of the Behringer is that
it is a bit noisy because of the small diaphragm. That only matters on
very quiet sources though. Of course the price doesn't hurt too much
either.

Those other mics you are discussing with Dave aren't suitable for
plugging straight into a PC - they need a pre-amp. If you want to go
that route, Behringer is your friend again. You can get a UB802 mixer
for about £40. I bought one thinking I might use it once a month, but
I find it constantly handy.


This is all new territory for me, but very interesting. I don't have much
need of a mic other than piano recordings which won't be done for a while
yet but I would like to get summat sorted out and (surprise, surprise) I
wouldn't hate it if it had valves in it!!

Otherwise, what does this look like:

http://www.bluearan.co.uk/menu/index.php?id=BEHMIC200

and which of these (if any):

http://www.bluearan.co.uk/menu/index...ew=Microphones

???

The shite wot is writ here...
 

"Wally" wrote in message
...
Keith G wrote:

http://www.oktava-online.com/mkl2500.htm

Would that be suitable for piano recordings?? :-)

That's something like 450 quid (plus taxes?). I'm no expert, but I'm sure
you could spend far less and still get a big improvement over the tie-clip
mic.


I'm sure you're right, but if Swim wants joanna recordings done, there a
good chance I can get her to spring for the mic!! But it's all in the early
stages yet and I'm sure common sense will spoil it, sooner or later...!! ;-)

The shite wot is writ here...
 

Don Pearce wrote:


The Behringer would be a good choice. It is part of the armoury of
most recordists because it is just so flat and faultless. Other mics
have "deliberate" limps and bumps that are used to accentuate various
sonic characteristics. The only real failing of the Behringer is that
it is a bit noisy because of the small diaphragm. That only matters on
very quiet sources though. Of course the price doesn't hurt too much
either.


My main reason for having one is the flat aspect, and then again, the
price does help :-)

--
Nick

The shite wot is writ here...
 

Keith G wrote:

This is all new territory for me, but very interesting. I don't have
much need of a mic other than piano recordings which won't be done
for a while yet but I would like to get summat sorted out and
(surprise, surprise) I wouldn't hate it if it had valves in it!!

Otherwise, what does this look like:

No idea about their mics and preamps, but I'm happy with the Behringer bits
I've got so far. I'd maybe look at other preamps, though - that one has a
bunch of presets to suit voicings for different instruments, which leaves me
feeling that it's trying to be all things to all men. There might be some
others which have twiddly knobs for similar money. Phantom power could be a
good thing, depending on what mic you go for.

One of my Behringer bits came from Blue Aran - it was zero hassle 'click
buttons and stuff shows up' internet shopping. Turned up within a couple of
days.


--
Wally
www.wally.myby.co.uk
I eat my peas with honey, I've done it all my life.
It makes the peas taste funny, but it keeps them on the knife.
(Spike Milligan)

The shite wot is writ here...
 

"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...

Well, you haven't helped your case any here, Keith. These clips both
bear out the idea that top and bottom octaves are missing. There is
nothing significant below 60Hz, and they resemble the side of a cliff
above about 10kHz. Whether that is to do with the speaker, source
material or mic is tricky to say, but we work with what we have.


Hi Don, I am in my 50's and find I cannot hear a hell of a lot over 10-12k
these days. Therefore I could find the top end of the setup to be as good as
anything in the market place. While these speakers *may* be deficient in
the top end it won't necessarily exclude them from the purchase list based
upon me undertaking listening tests. Should those who cannot make use of the
full sound spectrum from a speaker because of their age still only buy
speakers that supposedly meet the highest standards of frequency response
when they may not get any benefit themselves? When we have products
predominantly for our enjoyment only, should we be concerned what others may
say or should we believe what we hear?

Keith's perceptions of his equipment are 100 valid for himself and maybe so
for many others who would like equipment that produces an enjoyable sound
but have the same age related hearing deterioration as I have myself.
Keith's perceptions of his own equipment may be the same perceptions that I
would arrive at if I were to hear it.

After all, for us who replay music the end requirement is enjoyment of it.
For all those who make/play, mix and master, etc (all those professionals in
the chain) , the goal should encompass the technical issues that result in a
quality product, one of them being frequency response, with the actual goal
being to make the music as enjoyable as possible to the widest range of
people so that they want to hear it and re-hear it.

The shite wot is writ here...
 

"Wally" wrote in message
...
Keith G wrote:

This is all new territory for me, but very interesting. I don't have
much need of a mic other than piano recordings which won't be done
for a while yet but I would like to get summat sorted out and
(surprise, surprise) I wouldn't hate it if it had valves in it!!

Otherwise, what does this look like:

No idea about their mics and preamps, but I'm happy with the Behringer
bits
I've got so far.


I've never heard bad and enough people here seem to have got Behringer
stuff....???


I'd maybe look at other preamps, though - that one has a
bunch of presets to suit voicings for different instruments, which leaves
me
feeling that it's trying to be all things to all men. There might be some
others which have twiddly knobs for similar money. Phantom power could be
a
good thing, depending on what mic you go for.


OK, it's early days - the Oktava valve mic is only (yes, I know...) 179 from
this place:

http://www.kmraudio.com/catalogue/pr...roducts_id/781

But I'm totally strapped for 'toy spending' atm!! :-(



One of my Behringer bits came from Blue Aran - it was zero hassle 'click
buttons and stuff shows up' internet shopping. Turned up within a couple
of
days.


That's what you want!! :-)

The shite wot is writ here...
 

In article ,
Keith G wrote:
But I'm open to suggestions, Plowie - the ideal mic plugs straight into
the computer I suppose, but summat like this does have a certain appeal:

http://www.oktava-online.com/mkl2500.htm

Would that be suitable for piano recordings?? :-)

I read as far as 'rich enough in third harmonic distortion to brighten and
add warmth' before bursting out laughing. The frequency response added
somewhat to the joke, as did the price.

Mics, of course, often don't have as flat a frequency response as you'd
get with even a modestly specced power amp as they tend to be chosen for
particular tasks.

However, you seem to be keen on a valve mic so I'll leave any advice to
others. I was glad to see the end of them.

--
*Marriage changes passion - suddenly you're in bed with a relative*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

The shite wot is writ here...
 

Keith G wrote:

OK, it's early days - the Oktava valve mic is only (yes, I know...)
179 from this place:

http://www.kmraudio.com/catalogue/pr...roducts_id/781

Is that another Russian one? I couldn't comment, other than maybe look for
something similar, but with 'piano' in the spiel somewhere?


But I'm totally strapped for 'toy spending' atm!! :-(

Tell me about it. I got this a month ago...

http://lab.melodolic.com/MR2/MR2-NearsideWithRoad.jpg

I have one or two plans for it (after a service and cam belt change). There
will be no audiophonic splurges for quite some time, I suspect. Not that I
give a ****, you understand... ;-)


One of my Behringer bits came from Blue Aran - it was zero hassle
'click buttons and stuff shows up' internet shopping. Turned up
within a couple of days.

That's what you want!! :-)

That's why I like eBay - don't have to keep entering payment and delivery
details: win auction, pay now, stuff arrives. It's like automatic
washer-dryers: insert clothes and powder, press button, walk away. :-)


--
Wally
www.wally.myby.co.uk
Things are always clearer in the cold, post-upload light.

The shite wot is writ here...
 

In article ,
APR wrote:
Should those who cannot make use of the full sound spectrum from a
speaker because of their age still only buy speakers that supposedly
meet the highest standards of frequency response when they may not get
any benefit themselves?

There's a great deal more to a speaker driver than simple frequency
response. 'Full range' drivers are likely to have a poor directivity
pattern, transient response and distortion due to cone break up, etc. The
only valid reason for them is the efficiency is likely higher - which is
totally irrelevant since watts are cheap these days.

In other words, slight HF loss which is normal with age doesn't mean
you'll not get any benefit from a full range speaker system.

--
*When everything's coming your way, you're in the wrong lane *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

The shite wot is writ here...
 

"Wally" wrote in message
...
Keith G wrote:

OK, it's early days - the Oktava valve mic is only (yes, I know...)
179 from this place:

http://www.kmraudio.com/catalogue/pr...roducts_id/781

Is that another Russian one? I couldn't comment, other than maybe look for
something similar, but with 'piano' in the spiel somewhere?


But I'm totally strapped for 'toy spending' atm!! :-(

Tell me about it. I got this a month ago...

http://lab.melodolic.com/MR2/MR2-NearsideWithRoad.jpg

I have one or two plans for it (after a service and cam belt change).
There
will be no audiophonic splurges for quite some time, I suspect. Not that I
give a ****, you understand... ;-)


We got one of those parked out the back:

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/MisterToo.JPG


It's Swim's - she's had it from Day 1 and won't part with it!

Utterly reliable, will show you 145 on the clock, goes lethal (front end
lifts/goes light) at 110. If you ever have to take it into a garage for
problems around the door handle area (window controls, central locking &c.)
tell them there's a 'screw' in it somewhere - it's the only Toyota model
with one at that location and they'll bust it trying to pull it out as all
the others only 'click' in..!!

Enjoy! ;-)



One of my Behringer bits came from Blue Aran - it was zero hassle
'click buttons and stuff shows up' internet shopping. Turned up
within a couple of days.

That's what you want!! :-)

That's why I like eBay - don't have to keep entering payment and delivery
details: win auction, pay now, stuff arrives. It's like automatic
washer-dryers: insert clothes and powder, press button, walk away. :-)


And later on, the piper pay.....?? ;-)

(No-one here knows the song or the *singer* of that line, do they....!!??)


OK, a clue - the preceding line is:

Dosie doe, swing and sway....

The shite wot is writ here...
 

"APR" wrote


Hi Don, I am in my 50's and find I cannot hear a hell of a lot over
10-12k these days. Therefore I could find the top end of the setup to be
as good as anything in the market place. While these speakers *may* be
deficient in the top end it won't necessarily exclude them from the
purchase list based upon me undertaking listening tests. Should those who
cannot make use of the full sound spectrum from a speaker because of their
age still only buy speakers that supposedly meet the highest standards of
frequency response when they may not get any benefit themselves? When we
have products predominantly for our enjoyment only, should we be concerned
what others may say or should we believe what we hear?


The thing that matters here is not the 'measurements' but the perceptions -
I don't notice any lack of treble, the drivers in my speakers are all rated
to 20K at the top end (minimum - one of the drivers is rated at 30K) and the
bass will vary with the cabinets. There is no big 'pistonic' effect (air
shifting) with FR units but low notes are perfectly fine and (despite the
clips) there is no 'one note' bass.

Where they score bigtime (and here I remind everyone I still have Tannoys
and Ruarks here and have tried a vast number of speakers in the past) is the
*clarity* and cohesion - I have quite literally heard detail I had never
heard before on countless occasions now.

The other bonus is the efficiency of some/most (but not all) of these
speakers - they leap into life leap into life like no other and are lighting
fast with incredible attack. All other speakers sound blurry and sluggish
once you have got used to them.



Keith's perceptions of his equipment are 100 valid for himself and maybe
so for many others who would like equipment that produces an enjoyable
sound but have the same age related hearing deterioration as I have
myself. Keith's perceptions of his own equipment may be the same
perceptions that I would arrive at if I were to hear it.


My door is still open to anyone who wants to hear them - there's no
obligation whatsoever to like them!!


After all, for us who replay music the end requirement is enjoyment of it.
For all those who make/play, mix and master, etc (all those professionals
in the chain) , the goal should encompass the technical issues that result
in a quality product, one of them being frequency response, with the
actual goal being to make the music as enjoyable as possible to the widest
range of people so that they want to hear it and re-hear it.

Very nicely put!

The shite wot is writ here...
 

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
APR wrote:
Should those who cannot make use of the full sound spectrum from a
speaker because of their age still only buy speakers that supposedly
meet the highest standards of frequency response when they may not get
any benefit themselves?

There's a great deal more to a speaker driver than simple frequency
response. 'Full range' drivers are likely to have a poor directivity
pattern, transient response and distortion due to cone break up, etc. The
only valid reason for them is the efficiency is likely higher - which is
totally irrelevant since watts are cheap these days.


Can't agree with much of that - none of my FR units are rated at less than
20K at the top end...

The shite wot is writ here...
 

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Keith G wrote:
But I'm open to suggestions, Plowie - the ideal mic plugs straight into
the computer I suppose, but summat like this does have a certain appeal:

http://www.oktava-online.com/mkl2500.htm

Would that be suitable for piano recordings?? :-)

I read as far as 'rich enough in third harmonic distortion to brighten and
add warmth' before bursting out laughing. The frequency response added
somewhat to the joke, as did the price.

Mics, of course, often don't have as flat a frequency response as you'd
get with even a modestly specced power amp as they tend to be chosen for
particular tasks.

However, you seem to be keen on a valve mic so I'll leave any advice to
others. I was glad to see the end of them.


Nevertheless, I would still be interested in your recommendations.

The valve mic idea is *me* - I don't have to worry too much about *fidelity*
as well you know, I seek only the most pleasant sound I can get and if it
makes the piano recording sound particularly good it would be a bonus. But
if you have a better idea (for less money, presumably) I'd be interested to
hear it...??

The shite wot is writ here...
 

On Mon, 25 Sep 2006 08:56:57 +1000, "APR"
wrote:


"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...

Well, you haven't helped your case any here, Keith. These clips both
bear out the idea that top and bottom octaves are missing. There is
nothing significant below 60Hz, and they resemble the side of a cliff
above about 10kHz. Whether that is to do with the speaker, source
material or mic is tricky to say, but we work with what we have.


Hi Don, I am in my 50's and find I cannot hear a hell of a lot over 10-12k
these days. Therefore I could find the top end of the setup to be as good as
anything in the market place. While these speakers *may* be deficient in
the top end it won't necessarily exclude them from the purchase list based
upon me undertaking listening tests. Should those who cannot make use of the
full sound spectrum from a speaker because of their age still only buy
speakers that supposedly meet the highest standards of frequency response
when they may not get any benefit themselves? When we have products
predominantly for our enjoyment only, should we be concerned what others may
say or should we believe what we hear?

Keith's perceptions of his equipment are 100 valid for himself and maybe so
for many others who would like equipment that produces an enjoyable sound
but have the same age related hearing deterioration as I have myself.
Keith's perceptions of his own equipment may be the same perceptions that I
would arrive at if I were to hear it.

After all, for us who replay music the end requirement is enjoyment of it.
For all those who make/play, mix and master, etc (all those professionals in
the chain) , the goal should encompass the technical issues that result in a
quality product, one of them being frequency response, with the actual goal
being to make the music as enjoyable as possible to the widest range of
people so that they want to hear it and re-hear it.


Hi APR. I've never questioned Keith's perceptions, and of course he is
welcome to them. The issue under examination here was whether full
range drivers reproduce the top and bottom octaves fully - the
contention is that they on't, and Keith's postings bore out that
contention. Since they were posted Dave Plowman has pointed out that
the mic Keith was using has serious deficiencies in these areas
itself. That is where we are currently - waiting for the next chapter.

d

--
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

The shite wot is writ here...
 

On Sun, 24 Sep 2006 22:51:08 +0100, "Keith G"
wrote:


"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 24 Sep 2006 21:22:00 +0100, "Keith G"
wrote:


"Nick Gorham" wrote in message
...
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
Keith G wrote:

Judge for yourselves - here are two 'identical' clips (end of one
track,
beginning of another) of extremely complex/crowded music recorded OPEN
MIC with only a peewee little lapel mic (all I got) with digital/SS
everything except the power amp on the EX3 clip, which is 300B SET
valve. No editing whatsoever, other than a Fade In and Out at the ends
to lessen the shock!


Without even listening, Keith, do yourself a favour and get a half
decent
mic for this sort of test.


If its of any use Keith, I can lend you a Behringer ECM8000 and home
made
pre if you wanted to play further. I don't need it until I get a couple
of
inductors wound.


Thanks Nick, if I lived round the corner I'd be delighted to take you up
on
the kind offer, but I guess I gotta get summat sorted out - not for
recording speakers as such (although that is good fun) but there's the
piano
recordings to be done some time in the near(ish) future!


The Behringer would be a good choice. It is part of the armoury of
most recordists because it is just so flat and faultless. Other mics
have "deliberate" limps and bumps that are used to accentuate various
sonic characteristics. The only real failing of the Behringer is that
it is a bit noisy because of the small diaphragm. That only matters on
very quiet sources though. Of course the price doesn't hurt too much
either.

Those other mics you are discussing with Dave aren't suitable for
plugging straight into a PC - they need a pre-amp. If you want to go
that route, Behringer is your friend again. You can get a UB802 mixer
for about £40. I bought one thinking I might use it once a month, but
I find it constantly handy.


This is all new territory for me, but very interesting. I don't have much
need of a mic other than piano recordings which won't be done for a while
yet but I would like to get summat sorted out and (surprise, surprise) I
wouldn't hate it if it had valves in it!!

Otherwise, what does this look like:

http://www.bluearan.co.uk/menu/index.php?id=BEHMIC200


No, go for the UB802, not that - what you are looking at is an effects
box; maybe fun for a few minutes, but ultimately unsatisfying.

and which of these (if any):

http://www.bluearan.co.uk/menu/index...ew=Microphones

???


Any of those (apart from the couple at the top) would probably do. Buy
two of course - you need to be able to record stereo.

d

--
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

The shite wot is writ here...
 

In article ,
Keith G wrote:
The thing that matters here is not the 'measurements' but the
perceptions - I don't notice any lack of treble, the drivers in my
speakers are all rated to 20K at the top end (minimum - one of the
drivers is rated at 30K)

As you've found out with your mic what a maker claims and the reality are
not always the same thing.

--
*Where do forest rangers go to "get away from it all?"

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

The shite wot is writ here...
 

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Keith G wrote:
The thing that matters here is not the 'measurements' but the
perceptions - I don't notice any lack of treble, the drivers in my
speakers are all rated to 20K at the top end (minimum - one of the
drivers is rated at 30K)

As you've found out with your mic what a maker claims and the reality are
not always the same thing.



No, I found that out with Jap bike speedos about 40 years ago....

;-)


(Since when I have never really taken much notice of
claims/readings/measurements unless I could verify them for myself - please
see my 17,328 'pinch of salt' posts here.....)