Cartridge loading - does it matter?
 

No, my observations are purely subjective. I don't have a good capacitance
meter on hand at the moment but I would guesstimate that between the arm
cabling and preamp input, the capacitance would be about 200 pF.



"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
In article , Dish Guy
wrote:
Does it matter? Probably not.

I use a Denon 103s MC cartridge (0.385mV) and after several months of
testing/listening recently I finally settled on 47K ohms as its best
termination resistance.

I tried several values, 40, 100, 200, 1000, 2000 ohms and 47K ohms. The
lower values displayed a slight resonance in the upper bass, about 1 dB
or so somewhere around the 80-100 Hz I would estimate, just enough to
skew the frequency balance for the male voice. The 1000 and 2000 ohm
values smoothes this low freq rise but then produced a peak in the 6
KHz to 8 KHz region. The 47K resistance offers the smoothest and most
extended frequency response with neither of these two peaks being
audible.

Is the above based on measurements? If so, I'd be interested to see the
details. Can you also say what level of cable/amp capacitance was used?

I only tried the 47K loading out of frustration with the lower settings.
All seemed to introduce something not quite right. I must admit that I
was surprised that 47K loading sounded as good as it did -- and better
than all lower impedances as well. As an added bonus (I guess) the S/N
ratio is higher with the higher loading.

I am not sure that a higher load impedance will mean a better SNR. This
will depend on the details of the noise generation mechanisms involved as
well as the source details.

Slainte,

Jim

--
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Cartridge loading - does it matter?
 

I replaced my Mayware Formula 4 (unipivot) with the RB-300 earlier this
year.

Believe me, the Denon sounds MUCH better in the Rega arm.


"Nick Gorham" wrote in message
. uk...
Dish Guy wrote:
Rega Planar 3 turntable, (new) RB-300 arm and Denon 103s cartridge.


In my (limited) experence, the Rega is a very poor match for the Denon. It
works much better with loose bearing arms like the SME, and its at its
best in a unipivot.

--
Nick

Cartridge loading - does it matter?
 

Yes, so does mine.

Notwithstanding that, the recommended impedance for the Denon 103s is either
the 40 ohm input of Denon's AU-320 stepup transformer (which I also have) or
100 ohms if used directly into a preamp.


"Nick Gorham" wrote in message
. uk...
Dish Guy wrote:
Recommended loading is 100 ohms.


Not so sure about that, the sheet that comes with the cart show the FR
plot with a 1k loading.

--
Nick

Cartridge loading - does it matter?
 

Dish Guy wrote:
Yes, so does mine.

Notwithstanding that, the recommended impedance for the Denon 103s is either
the 40 ohm input of Denon's AU-320 stepup transformer (which I also have) or
100 ohms if used directly into a preamp.


Ok, but the specs I can find, and my (and several others) experence say
the source inductance is 40R, and the recommended load is 100R (only
one site I found says 100R). The 103r is happier at 100R, but I find the
103 it sounds best in a hadcock unipivot, with 6gm extra mass at the
tip, and a effective load of somewhere like 250R.

YMMV.

--
Nick

Cartridge loading - does it matter?
 

Since arms, cabling, etc. are unlikely to match in different setups all a
person can do is try various values for cartridge loadings and pick which is
most accurate for their particular system. Mine is as stated.

Yes, YMMV.

Morris


"Nick Gorham" wrote in message
...
Dish Guy wrote:
Yes, so does mine.

Notwithstanding that, the recommended impedance for the Denon 103s is
either the 40 ohm input of Denon's AU-320 stepup transformer (which I
also have) or 100 ohms if used directly into a preamp.


Ok, but the specs I can find, and my (and several others) experence say
the source inductance is 40R, and the recommended load is 100R (only one
site I found says 100R). The 103r is happier at 100R, but I find the 103
it sounds best in a hadcock unipivot, with 6gm extra mass at the tip, and
a effective load of somewhere like 250R.

YMMV.

--
Nick

Cartridge loading - does it matter?
 

In article , Nick Gorham
wrote:
Dish Guy wrote:
Yes, so does mine.

Notwithstanding that, the recommended impedance for the Denon 103s is
either the 40 ohm input of Denon's AU-320 stepup transformer (which I
also have) or 100 ohms if used directly into a preamp.


I am wondering what "40 Ohm input" may mean in this context as the actual
load it presents will depend on how the transformer secondary is
terminated. Perhaps it just means "use this input for our 40 Ohm
cartridges"?

Ok, but the specs I can find, and my (and several others) experence say
the source inductance is 40R, and the recommended load is 100R (only
one site I found says 100R). The 103r is happier at 100R, but I find the
103 it sounds best in a hadcock unipivot, with 6gm extra mass at the
tip, and a effective load of somewhere like 250R.

The references I have agree with the above w.r.t source resistance. This
month's Hi Fi World actually compares two versions of the Denon 103 and
quotes 40 Ohms as the source resistance. As does a 1980 'Hi Fi choice'
collection. Hi Fi News from 1980 give a value of 33 Ohms for another
version of the 103.

FWIW I did some quick calculations last night as I was curious about this.
If the results are correct then the stylus force required to deliver 0.5mV
into a 50R - 100R load is 3-4 orders of magnitude smaller than the force
required by a compliance of 10 cu at 1 kHz. This makes me doubtful that
electrical loading has much effect on the mechanical resonances. It may be
that the calculation was in error, though, as it was 'back of a scruffy
envelope' format. :-)

However 0.5 mV for 5cm/s and 40 Ohms make me wonder if the 103 actually
has a significant series inductance. If so, changes in loading may alter
the frequency response due to this. If not, it isn't clear to me why
changing the load would have much effect on the frequency response. So far
as I can see, it will essentially just alter the signal level and SNR.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html

Cartridge loading - does it matter?
 

Jim Lesurf wrote:
In article , Nick Gorham
wrote:

Dish Guy wrote:

Yes, so does mine.

Notwithstanding that, the recommended impedance for the Denon 103s is
either the 40 ohm input of Denon's AU-320 stepup transformer (which I
also have) or 100 ohms if used directly into a preamp.



I am wondering what "40 Ohm input" may mean in this context as the actual
load it presents will depend on how the transformer secondary is
terminated. Perhaps it just means "use this input for our 40 Ohm
cartridges"?

I guess it depends on how its expected to be used. I have found that
several of the commerical stepup TX's are built with fixed loading
resistors, so altering the load presented buy the phono stage may have
little effect.



Ok, but the specs I can find, and my (and several others) experence say
the source inductance is 40R, and the recommended load is 100R (only
one site I found says 100R). The 103r is happier at 100R, but I find the
103 it sounds best in a hadcock unipivot, with 6gm extra mass at the
tip, and a effective load of somewhere like 250R.


The references I have agree with the above w.r.t source resistance. This
month's Hi Fi World actually compares two versions of the Denon 103 and
quotes 40 Ohms as the source resistance. As does a 1980 'Hi Fi choice'
collection. Hi Fi News from 1980 give a value of 33 Ohms for another
version of the 103.


Yes, the author of the HFW article is one of the people I have compaired
results with with respect to the 103.

FWIW I did some quick calculations last night as I was curious about this.
If the results are correct then the stylus force required to deliver 0.5mV
into a 50R - 100R load is 3-4 orders of magnitude smaller than the force
required by a compliance of 10 cu at 1 kHz. This makes me doubtful that
electrical loading has much effect on the mechanical resonances. It may be
that the calculation was in error, though, as it was 'back of a scruffy
envelope' format. :-)

However 0.5 mV for 5cm/s and 40 Ohms make me wonder if the 103 actually
has a significant series inductance. If so, changes in loading may alter
the frequency response due to this. If not, it isn't clear to me why
changing the load would have much effect on the frequency response. So far
as I can see, it will essentially just alter the signal level and SNR.


I am not convinced that the loading makes a major change in frequency
response. If I have a chance, I will see if its measurable using the kit
I have. But I suspect it may not be. The subject difference seems to me
to be more a case of improved bass resolution, and top end extension,
but as to how that relates to a FR display I don't know. I do know that
changing the load from 100R to 470R does seem to provide a additional
couple of dB of signal.

--
Nick

Cartridge loading - does it matter?
 

In article , Nick
Gorham
wrote:
Jim Lesurf wrote:


However 0.5 mV for 5cm/s and 40 Ohms make me wonder if the 103
actually has a significant series inductance. If so, changes in
loading may alter the frequency response due to this. If not, it isn't
clear to me why changing the load would have much effect on the
frequency response. So far as I can see, it will essentially just
alter the signal level and SNR.


I am not convinced that the loading makes a major change in frequency
response. If I have a chance, I will see if its measurable using the kit
I have. But I suspect it may not be. The subject difference seems to me
to be more a case of improved bass resolution, and top end extension,
but as to how that relates to a FR display I don't know.

Unless it does something like alter the response I am unclear why it would
do that...

I do know that changing the load from 100R to 470R does seem to provide
a additional couple of dB of signal.

....although a change in level might be percieved as altering the overall
tonal balance in some way.

Alternatively, if the actual coils are 'sum and difference' then changing
the loading might alter the crosstalk, which might sound like an audible
difference of some other kind. Never seen anyone test for this.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html

Cartridge loading - does it matter?
 

Jim Lesurf wrote:



I am not convinced that the loading makes a major change in frequency
response. If I have a chance, I will see if its measurable using the kit
I have. But I suspect it may not be. The subject difference seems to me
to be more a case of improved bass resolution, and top end extension,
but as to how that relates to a FR display I don't know.


Unless it does something like alter the response I am unclear why it would
do that...



So am I, I am just reporting subjective information.

I would think it would be possibe to consider a situation where
different loading alters the generation of distortion products and so
altered the bass. The top end could be the result in changes in
response. I have found that RIAA step changes (ie 1dB over a range of
frequency, for example) can have far more effect on the way things sound
than a simple 1dB change in volumn.

--
Nick

Cartridge loading - does it matter?
 

On Sat, 14 Oct 2006 09:18:07 +0100, Nick Gorham
wrote:

Jim Lesurf wrote:



I am not convinced that the loading makes a major change in frequency
response. If I have a chance, I will see if its measurable using the kit
I have. But I suspect it may not be. The subject difference seems to me
to be more a case of improved bass resolution, and top end extension,
but as to how that relates to a FR display I don't know.


Unless it does something like alter the response I am unclear why it would
do that...



So am I, I am just reporting subjective information.

I would think it would be possibe to consider a situation where
different loading alters the generation of distortion products and so
altered the bass. The top end could be the result in changes in
response. I have found that RIAA step changes (ie 1dB over a range of
frequency, for example) can have far more effect on the way things sound
than a simple 1dB change in volumn.

I think the mechanical sources of distortion in the cartridge are
overwhelmingly greater than any electrical ones that could be provoked
by loading change.

The level question though is much more interesting. You can make small
changes to level that are too tiny to be identified as such - but they
do have the subjective effect of the louder one being perceived as
somehow clearer or brighter.

And of course a moving coil cartridge is highly inductive and is
greatly affected by its loading, mostly the total cable capacitance,
of course, but also to a degree by the resistance, which tends to
brighten up the top end if it is higher than specified.

d

--
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

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