Cartridge loading - does it matter?
 

Don Pearce wrote:
On Sat, 14 Oct 2006 09:18:07 +0100, Nick Gorham
wrote:

Jim Lesurf wrote:

I am not convinced that the loading makes a major change in frequency
response. If I have a chance, I will see if its measurable using the kit
I have. But I suspect it may not be. The subject difference seems to me
to be more a case of improved bass resolution, and top end extension,
but as to how that relates to a FR display I don't know.

Unless it does something like alter the response I am unclear why it would
do that...


So am I, I am just reporting subjective information.

I would think it would be possibe to consider a situation where
different loading alters the generation of distortion products and so
altered the bass. The top end could be the result in changes in
response. I have found that RIAA step changes (ie 1dB over a range of
frequency, for example) can have far more effect on the way things sound
than a simple 1dB change in volumn.

I think the mechanical sources of distortion in the cartridge are
overwhelmingly greater than any electrical ones that could be provoked
by loading change.

The level question though is much more interesting. You can make small
changes to level that are too tiny to be identified as such - but they
do have the subjective effect of the louder one being perceived as
somehow clearer or brighter.

And of course a moving coil cartridge is highly inductive and is
greatly affected by its loading, mostly the total cable capacitance,
of course, but also to a degree by the resistance, which tends to
brighten up the top end if it is higher than specified.

d


Don,

Do you have figures for the inductance of a typical low-output MC
cartridge. As far as I know, the coils are small, with very few turns,
so I would have thought the inductance would be small. I don't have an
inductance bridge to make the measurments. Compared with an MM
cartridge who's coils are larger and have many hundreds (thousands?) of
turns, I would have expected that the inductance of an MC would be
small. My Goldring 1042 has a coil inductance of 570mH and a dc
restistance of 660 ohms.

S.

Cartridge loading - does it matter?
 

On Sat, 14 Oct 2006 10:51:45 +0100, Serge Auckland
wrote:

Don Pearce wrote:
On Sat, 14 Oct 2006 09:18:07 +0100, Nick Gorham
wrote:

Jim Lesurf wrote:

I am not convinced that the loading makes a major change in frequency
response. If I have a chance, I will see if its measurable using the kit
I have. But I suspect it may not be. The subject difference seems to me
to be more a case of improved bass resolution, and top end extension,
but as to how that relates to a FR display I don't know.

Unless it does something like alter the response I am unclear why it would
do that...


So am I, I am just reporting subjective information.

I would think it would be possibe to consider a situation where
different loading alters the generation of distortion products and so
altered the bass. The top end could be the result in changes in
response. I have found that RIAA step changes (ie 1dB over a range of
frequency, for example) can have far more effect on the way things sound
than a simple 1dB change in volumn.

I think the mechanical sources of distortion in the cartridge are
overwhelmingly greater than any electrical ones that could be provoked
by loading change.

The level question though is much more interesting. You can make small
changes to level that are too tiny to be identified as such - but they
do have the subjective effect of the louder one being perceived as
somehow clearer or brighter.

And of course a moving coil cartridge is highly inductive and is
greatly affected by its loading, mostly the total cable capacitance,
of course, but also to a degree by the resistance, which tends to
brighten up the top end if it is higher than specified.

d


Don,

Do you have figures for the inductance of a typical low-output MC
cartridge. As far as I know, the coils are small, with very few turns,
so I would have thought the inductance would be small. I don't have an
inductance bridge to make the measurments. Compared with an MM
cartridge who's coils are larger and have many hundreds (thousands?) of
turns, I would have expected that the inductance of an MC would be
small. My Goldring 1042 has a coil inductance of 570mH and a dc
restistance of 660 ohms.

S.

No, I don't have figures - I'll see what I can find. All I've given
you is hearsay, but if I can find some figures I'll do the maths and
figure out what loading changes really do.

d

--
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Cartridge loading - does it matter?
 

Don Pearce wrote:
On Sat, 14 Oct 2006 10:51:45 +0100, Serge Auckland
wrote:

Don Pearce wrote:
On Sat, 14 Oct 2006 09:18:07 +0100, Nick Gorham
wrote:

Jim Lesurf wrote:
I am not convinced that the loading makes a major change in frequency
response. If I have a chance, I will see if its measurable using the kit
I have. But I suspect it may not be. The subject difference seems to me
to be more a case of improved bass resolution, and top end extension,
but as to how that relates to a FR display I don't know.
Unless it does something like alter the response I am unclear why it would
do that...


So am I, I am just reporting subjective information.

I would think it would be possibe to consider a situation where
different loading alters the generation of distortion products and so
altered the bass. The top end could be the result in changes in
response. I have found that RIAA step changes (ie 1dB over a range of
frequency, for example) can have far more effect on the way things sound
than a simple 1dB change in volumn.
I think the mechanical sources of distortion in the cartridge are
overwhelmingly greater than any electrical ones that could be provoked
by loading change.

The level question though is much more interesting. You can make small
changes to level that are too tiny to be identified as such - but they
do have the subjective effect of the louder one being perceived as
somehow clearer or brighter.

And of course a moving coil cartridge is highly inductive and is
greatly affected by its loading, mostly the total cable capacitance,
of course, but also to a degree by the resistance, which tends to
brighten up the top end if it is higher than specified.

d

Don,

Do you have figures for the inductance of a typical low-output MC
cartridge. As far as I know, the coils are small, with very few turns,
so I would have thought the inductance would be small. I don't have an
inductance bridge to make the measurments. Compared with an MM
cartridge who's coils are larger and have many hundreds (thousands?) of
turns, I would have expected that the inductance of an MC would be
small. My Goldring 1042 has a coil inductance of 570mH and a dc
restistance of 660 ohms.

S.

No, I don't have figures - I'll see what I can find. All I've given
you is hearsay, but if I can find some figures I'll do the maths and
figure out what loading changes really do.

d

Thanks, that would be useful.

S.

Cartridge loading - does it matter?
 

On Sat, 14 Oct 2006 10:51:45 +0100, Serge Auckland
wrote:

Don Pearce wrote:
On Sat, 14 Oct 2006 09:18:07 +0100, Nick Gorham
wrote:

Jim Lesurf wrote:

I am not convinced that the loading makes a major change in frequency
response. If I have a chance, I will see if its measurable using the kit
I have. But I suspect it may not be. The subject difference seems to me
to be more a case of improved bass resolution, and top end extension,
but as to how that relates to a FR display I don't know.

Unless it does something like alter the response I am unclear why it would
do that...


So am I, I am just reporting subjective information.

I would think it would be possibe to consider a situation where
different loading alters the generation of distortion products and so
altered the bass. The top end could be the result in changes in
response. I have found that RIAA step changes (ie 1dB over a range of
frequency, for example) can have far more effect on the way things sound
than a simple 1dB change in volumn.

I think the mechanical sources of distortion in the cartridge are
overwhelmingly greater than any electrical ones that could be provoked
by loading change.

The level question though is much more interesting. You can make small
changes to level that are too tiny to be identified as such - but they
do have the subjective effect of the louder one being perceived as
somehow clearer or brighter.

And of course a moving coil cartridge is highly inductive and is
greatly affected by its loading, mostly the total cable capacitance,
of course, but also to a degree by the resistance, which tends to
brighten up the top end if it is higher than specified.

d


Don,

Do you have figures for the inductance of a typical low-output MC
cartridge. As far as I know, the coils are small, with very few turns,
so I would have thought the inductance would be small. I don't have an
inductance bridge to make the measurments. Compared with an MM
cartridge who's coils are larger and have many hundreds (thousands?) of
turns, I would have expected that the inductance of an MC would be
small. My Goldring 1042 has a coil inductance of 570mH and a dc
restistance of 660 ohms.

S.

I've found some numbers (70 microhenries and 12 ohms) for a cartridge,
and simulated what happens into 20 ohms and 47k, with 140pF of lead
capacitance. What happens is a 4dB difference in overall level and
only about 0.5dB of change frequency response over the audio range. So
I was talking ********. My apologies.

d

--
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Cartridge loading - does it matter?
 

"Don Pearce = ****ING Pommy MORON "


The level question though is much more interesting. You can make small
changes to level that are too tiny to be identified as such - but they
do have the subjective effect of the louder one being perceived as
somehow clearer or brighter.

And of course a moving coil cartridge is highly inductive


** Absolute ******** !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Moving magnet ( MM ) types are highly inductive.

MC types have SFA inductance.


and is
greatly affected by its loading,


** Absolute ******** !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!




mostly the total cable capacitance,



** Absolute ******** !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!




of course, but also to a degree by the resistance, which tends to
brighten up the top end if it is higher than specified.


Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com



** DO NOT GO ANYWHERE NEAR THIS 100 % DEMENTED BLOODY IDIOT !!!!!!!!!!


NOT EVEN IF YOUR LIFE DEPENDS ON IT !!!!





........ Phil

Cartridge loading - does it matter?
 

Ok, just had a look,

Dennon 103, into Lundahl stepup at 1:20 (so its possible the change is
as much down the the TX's as the cart).

This is pink noise, with the 230R loading I use.

http://www.lurcher.org/nick/audio/D103-250R.jpg

And this is the same, with one chan down to 37R loading.

http://www.lurcher.org/nick/audio/D103-37R.jpg

--
Nick

Cartridge loading - does it matter?
 

On Sat, 14 Oct 2006 15:00:26 +0100, Nick Gorham
wrote:

Ok, just had a look,

Dennon 103, into Lundahl stepup at 1:20 (so its possible the change is
as much down the the TX's as the cart).

This is pink noise, with the 230R loading I use.

http://www.lurcher.org/nick/audio/D103-250R.jpg

And this is the same, with one chan down to 37R loading.

http://www.lurcher.org/nick/audio/D103-37R.jpg

That pretty much bears out what I found, although it points to your
cart having rather more DC resistance than the one I modelled. Any
thoughts on what might be causing all that upper-mid nastiness on one
channel? That is going to be as audible as hell.

d

--
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Cartridge loading - does it matter?
 

Don Pearce wrote:

On Sat, 14 Oct 2006 15:00:26 +0100, Nick Gorham
wrote:


Ok, just had a look,

Dennon 103, into Lundahl stepup at 1:20 (so its possible the change is
as much down the the TX's as the cart).

This is pink noise, with the 230R loading I use.

http://www.lurcher.org/nick/audio/D103-250R.jpg

And this is the same, with one chan down to 37R loading.

http://www.lurcher.org/nick/audio/D103-37R.jpg


That pretty much bears out what I found, although it points to your
cart having rather more DC resistance than the one I modelled. Any
thoughts on what might be causing all that upper-mid nastiness on one
channel? That is going to be as audible as hell.

d


A very old and well used test record was my thinking.

Remember the difference in gain will also be affected by the losses in
the stepup TX in thi scase.

--
Nick

Cartridge loading - does it matter?
 

On Sat, 14 Oct 2006 16:09:07 +0100, Nick Gorham
wrote:

Don Pearce wrote:

On Sat, 14 Oct 2006 15:00:26 +0100, Nick Gorham
wrote:


Ok, just had a look,

Dennon 103, into Lundahl stepup at 1:20 (so its possible the change is
as much down the the TX's as the cart).

This is pink noise, with the 230R loading I use.

http://www.lurcher.org/nick/audio/D103-250R.jpg

And this is the same, with one chan down to 37R loading.

http://www.lurcher.org/nick/audio/D103-37R.jpg


That pretty much bears out what I found, although it points to your
cart having rather more DC resistance than the one I modelled. Any
thoughts on what might be causing all that upper-mid nastiness on one
channel? That is going to be as audible as hell.

d


A very old and well used test record was my thinking.


Not sure it would account for all of that. It is all on one channel -
how convinced are you of the arm's bias setting?

Remember the difference in gain will also be affected by the losses in
the stepup TX in thi scase.

True, but they will be tiny in comparison to the7-odd dB we are seeing
from the resistive potential divider. What is the cartridge? It would
be interesting to model the right parameters and see how close it
comes.

d

--
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Cartridge loading - does it matter?
 

Don Pearce wrote:


A very old and well used test record was my thinking.



Not sure it would account for all of that. It is all on one channel -
how convinced are you of the arm's bias setting?

I am not, its on a new (to me) deck, and needs proper setting up. Thats
my job for the weekend.


True, but they will be tiny in comparison to the7-odd dB we are seeing
from the resistive potential divider. What is the cartridge? It would
be interesting to model the right parameters and see how close it
comes.

Its a Denon 301 that started this off.

--
Nick.