On Sun, 19 Nov 2006 12:56:28 -0000, "Keith G"
wrote:

You should also know that the full-range driver is in fact a myth. They
are all dual cone devices with some sort of mechanical crossover

Hi Don - yes, the majority are as above, but I'm talking single cone
here.


I would also disagree with Don's statement, especially if you take the
umpteen million single cone/FR drivers that are used worldwide in radios,
TVs, cars &c. - I certainly have single cone Visaton drivers on the go here
myself...

Well, those umpteen million single cone drivers in TVs and radios are
anything but FR - they pretty much universally have no bass and no
treble.

Which Visatons do you have again? I've just looked at their web site,
and everything I can find has a separate treble unit of one sort or
another in the middle of the bass cone.

d

--
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 19 Nov 2006 12:56:28 -0000, "Keith G"
wrote:

You should also know that the full-range driver is in fact a myth. They
are all dual cone devices with some sort of mechanical crossover

Hi Don - yes, the majority are as above, but I'm talking single cone
here.


I would also disagree with Don's statement, especially if you take the
umpteen million single cone/FR drivers that are used worldwide in radios,
TVs, cars &c. - I certainly have single cone Visaton drivers on the go
here
myself...

Well, those umpteen million single cone drivers in TVs and radios are
anything but FR - they pretty much universally have no bass and no
treble.



Ah, but they *can* have - ask yer mate Dr Bose or any 'horn' cabinet
builder....!! ;-)



Which Visatons do you have again? I've just looked at their web site,
and everything I can find has a separate treble unit of one sort or
another in the middle of the bass cone.


FRS8s in the Needles and B200s back in their boxes....

http://www.impactaudio.co.uk/speaker...b6ddb0ba26b286


Let's put this 'frequency extremes' thing to bed once and for all - there is
no shortage of high frequency with just about all the drivers I have
used/considered and which quote a top end of 18K or better and up to 30K in
some instances. Bass is no worse than 'ordinary' speakers and is dependent
on cabinet/room science, as you know better than I.....

See again:

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/LS35a.JPG

for an example of a speaker with 'no frequency extremes' which would appear
to benefit from the use of a subwoofer in *no different way* to many (maybe
most) FR designs - *if* you need yer trousers flapped...!!

One visitor here, on hearing my Pinkies...

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/busc.../buschorns.htm

"Whoah! They've got more bass than my AEs...!!"

(The pinkies have 4" FR drivers and the AEs are/were 3-way floorstanding
speakers with 165mm bass units - EVO 3s??)

In article ,
Keith G wrote:
Well, those umpteen million single cone drivers in TVs and radios are
anything but FR - they pretty much universally have no bass and no
treble.

Ah, but they *can* have - ask yer mate Dr Bose or any 'horn' cabinet
builder....!! ;-)

Which is why both these produce incredibly 'coloured' sound.

--
*Why are a wise man and a wise guy opposites?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Keith G wrote:
Well, those umpteen million single cone drivers in TVs and radios are
anything but FR - they pretty much universally have no bass and no
treble.

Ah, but they *can* have - ask yer mate Dr Bose or any 'horn' cabinet
builder....!! ;-)

Which is why both these produce incredibly 'coloured' sound.



Ah. Those flowery expressions again. Wish I knew what they meant - or were
intended to mean.

What colour did you have in mind? Puce? Cerise?

Eau De Nil...??

Burnt Umber....??

In article ,
Keith G wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article , Keith G
wrote:
Well, those umpteen million single cone drivers in TVs and radios
are anything but FR - they pretty much universally have no bass and
no treble.

Ah, but they *can* have - ask yer mate Dr Bose or any 'horn' cabinet
builder....!! ;-)

Which is why both these produce incredibly 'coloured' sound.



Ah. Those flowery expressions again. Wish I knew what they meant - or
were intended to mean.

What colour did you have in mind? Puce? Cerise?

Eau De Nil...??

Burnt Umber....??

Colouration of sound is a term that has been in use by pros ever since I
started in the industry - and that's a long long time ago. Think of a PA
system just before the point of howlround - that's colouration. Or the
same with vinyl being played on certain turntables at high level. In other
words an external influence on a sound.

There now. That's an explanation.

How about one for 'speed' and 'immediacy' ;-)

--
*Where do forest rangers go to "get away from it all?"

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Keith G wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article , Keith G
wrote:
Well, those umpteen million single cone drivers in TVs and radios
are anything but FR - they pretty much universally have no bass and
no treble.

Ah, but they *can* have - ask yer mate Dr Bose or any 'horn' cabinet
builder....!! ;-)

Which is why both these produce incredibly 'coloured' sound.



Ah. Those flowery expressions again. Wish I knew what they meant - or
were intended to mean.

What colour did you have in mind? Puce? Cerise?

Eau De Nil...??

Burnt Umber....??

Colouration of sound is a term that has been in use by pros ever since I
started in the industry - and that's a long long time ago. Think of a PA
system just before the point of howlround - that's colouration. Or the
same with vinyl being played on certain turntables at high level. In other
words an external influence on a sound.

There now. That's an explanation.

How about one for 'speed' and 'immediacy' ;-)



No thanks, I'll pass - the one for 'coloured' wasn't too hot....

In article ,
Keith G wrote:
o thanks, I'll pass - the one for 'coloured' wasn't too hot....

So as a self professed vinyl freak you've never heard the effect of
feedback?

--
*Horn broken. - Watch for finger.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Keith G wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Keith G wrote:
Well, those umpteen million single cone drivers in TVs and radios
are anything but FR - they pretty much universally have no bass and
no treble.

Ah, but they *can* have - ask yer mate Dr Bose or any 'horn' cabinet
builder....!! ;-)

Which is why both these produce incredibly 'coloured' sound.



Ah. Those flowery expressions again. Wish I knew what they meant - or
were intended to mean.

You might find this article to be of use. Consider it a form of
advertising, though.

http://www.harbeth.co.uk/designersno...r7-2/index.php

--
*Fax is stronger than fiction *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Sun, 19 Nov 2006 13:49:24 -0000, "Keith G"
wrote:


"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 19 Nov 2006 12:56:28 -0000, "Keith G"
wrote:

You should also know that the full-range driver is in fact a myth. They
are all dual cone devices with some sort of mechanical crossover

Hi Don - yes, the majority are as above, but I'm talking single cone
here.


I would also disagree with Don's statement, especially if you take the
umpteen million single cone/FR drivers that are used worldwide in radios,
TVs, cars &c. - I certainly have single cone Visaton drivers on the go
here
myself...

Well, those umpteen million single cone drivers in TVs and radios are
anything but FR - they pretty much universally have no bass and no
treble.



Ah, but they *can* have - ask yer mate Dr Bose or any 'horn' cabinet
builder....!! ;-)



No, they can't. Dr. Bose's reputation goes before him as a marketeer,
but his speakers are universally derided among the cognoscenti (and
they do sound genuinely horrible). And of course horns make no
difference to treble, and can only increase bass down to the
wavelength limit of the horn's dimensions - I've never come across one
with the twenty feet or so you would need to get true bass out of
them, although I have seen pictures of builds by the certifiable.


Which Visatons do you have again? I've just looked at their web site,
and everything I can find has a separate treble unit of one sort or
another in the middle of the bass cone.


FRS8s in the Needles and B200s back in their boxes....

http://www.impactaudio.co.uk/speaker...b6ddb0ba26b286


Let's put this 'frequency extremes' thing to bed once and for all - there is
no shortage of high frequency with just about all the drivers I have
used/considered and which quote a top end of 18K or better and up to 30K in
some instances. Bass is no worse than 'ordinary' speakers and is dependent
on cabinet/room science, as you know better than I.....


Didn't we measure your speakers and find them rolling off severely
above 10kHz? As for bass, we also found that there was nothing below
about 60Hz - which makes total sense for the dimensions you have. I
have a tiny pair of bookshelves in front f me (KEF Cresta 10) which do
at least as well, probably rather better. Top end of course - no
comparison.

See again:

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/LS35a.JPG

for an example of a speaker with 'no frequency extremes' which would appear
to benefit from the use of a subwoofer in *no different way* to many (maybe
most) FR designs - *if* you need yer trousers flapped...!!

The LS35a was designed for a purpose, and it fitted that very well. It
was for monitoring BBC programme material. Extremes of bass and treble
formed no part of the BBC output, so didn't need monitoring. Sure
people adopted them for home listening, at which point the
shortcomings started revealing themselves, so subwoofers got added.

One visitor here, on hearing my Pinkies...

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/busc.../buschorns.htm

"Whoah! They've got more bass than my AEs...!!"

(The pinkies have 4" FR drivers and the AEs are/were 3-way floorstanding
speakers with 165mm bass units - EVO 3s??)



Yup, and we both know what that is all about. It is why those really
cheap home cinema kits can have subwoofers that go no lower than 100Hz
- make it boom a bit and it sounds like bass - until you hear the real
thing, that is. You really do need to think some more about that
subwoofer, you know ;-)

d

--
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 19 Nov 2006 13:49:24 -0000, "Keith G"
wrote:


"Don Pearce" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 19 Nov 2006 12:56:28 -0000, "Keith G"
wrote:

You should also know that the full-range driver is in fact a myth.
They
are all dual cone devices with some sort of mechanical crossover

Hi Don - yes, the majority are as above, but I'm talking single cone
here.


I would also disagree with Don's statement, especially if you take the
umpteen million single cone/FR drivers that are used worldwide in
radios,
TVs, cars &c. - I certainly have single cone Visaton drivers on the go
here
myself...

Well, those umpteen million single cone drivers in TVs and radios are
anything but FR - they pretty much universally have no bass and no
treble.



Ah, but they *can* have - ask yer mate Dr Bose or any 'horn' cabinet
builder....!! ;-)



No, they can't. Dr. Bose's reputation goes before him as a marketeer,
but his speakers are universally derided among the cognoscenti (and
they do sound genuinely horrible). And of course horns make no
difference to treble, and can only increase bass down to the
wavelength limit of the horn's dimensions - I've never come across one
with the twenty feet or so you would need to get true bass out of
them, although I have seen pictures of builds by the certifiable.


Which Visatons do you have again? I've just looked at their web site,
and everything I can find has a separate treble unit of one sort or
another in the middle of the bass cone.


FRS8s in the Needles and B200s back in their boxes....

http://www.impactaudio.co.uk/speaker...b6ddb0ba26b286


Let's put this 'frequency extremes' thing to bed once and for all - there
is
no shortage of high frequency with just about all the drivers I have
used/considered and which quote a top end of 18K or better and up to 30K
in
some instances. Bass is no worse than 'ordinary' speakers and is dependent
on cabinet/room science, as you know better than I.....


Didn't we measure your speakers and find them rolling off severely
above 10kHz? As for bass, we also found that there was nothing below
about 60Hz - which makes total sense for the dimensions you have. I
have a tiny pair of bookshelves in front f me (KEF Cresta 10) which do
at least as well, probably rather better. Top end of course - no
comparison.

See again:

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/LS35a.JPG

for an example of a speaker with 'no frequency extremes' which would
appear
to benefit from the use of a subwoofer in *no different way* to many
(maybe
most) FR designs - *if* you need yer trousers flapped...!!

The LS35a was designed for a purpose, and it fitted that very well. It
was for monitoring BBC programme material. Extremes of bass and treble
formed no part of the BBC output, so didn't need monitoring. Sure
people adopted them for home listening, at which point the
shortcomings started revealing themselves, so subwoofers got added.

One visitor here, on hearing my Pinkies...

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/busc.../buschorns.htm

"Whoah! They've got more bass than my AEs...!!"

(The pinkies have 4" FR drivers and the AEs are/were 3-way floorstanding
speakers with 165mm bass units - EVO 3s??)



Yup, and we both know what that is all about. It is why those really
cheap home cinema kits can have subwoofers that go no lower than 100Hz
- make it boom a bit and it sounds like bass - until you hear the real
thing, that is. You really do need to think some more about that
subwoofer, you know ;-)



Later, Don - I gotta grab some daylight and go walk the dog!!