What's your view of speaker crossovers?
 

For years I've been using a single driver now (Monacor 130AL, aluminium
cone like a Jordan). Of course it's not perfect - bass is only just
there and treble could be better. That's the deal. But nevertheless I
add ribbon tweeters (Decca) and take them away. Yes, the ribbon sounds
better but the crossover doesn't.

So, what do you guys feel rocks your boat? Are you in the camp of full
frequency response or that of total integrity (or whatever words you
feel describes a single driver)?

As a reference, the best speakers I know are panels like Magneplanar or
even better Apogee - yes they have crossovers but the sound remains the
same top to bottom in terms of delicacy, so you have the "feel" of a
single driver.

What's your view of speaker crossovers?
 

On 18 Nov 2006 15:38:33 -0800, "Andy Evans"
wrote:

For years I've been using a single driver now (Monacor 130AL, aluminium
cone like a Jordan). Of course it's not perfect - bass is only just
there and treble could be better. That's the deal. But nevertheless I
add ribbon tweeters (Decca) and take them away. Yes, the ribbon sounds
better but the crossover doesn't.


Not entirely sure what you are saying here - do you meant he sound is
not good around the crossover region? You do understand that this
isn't going to work simply by bolting a tweeter alongside a single
full-range driver; you need to get a proper bass unit that isn't
trying to operate up in the treble region.

You should also know that the full-range driver is in fact a myth.
They are all dual cone devices with some sort of mechanical crossover
built into the junction of the cones. Obviously they can't be designed
and configured anything like as cleanly as one implemented with and L
and a C.

So, what do you guys feel rocks your boat? Are you in the camp of full
frequency response or that of total integrity (or whatever words you
feel describes a single driver)?


I do have a system that provides full frequency response with the
integrity of a single driver - my Stax electrostatic headphones.

As a reference, the best speakers I know are panels like Magneplanar or
even better Apogee - yes they have crossovers but the sound remains the
same top to bottom in terms of delicacy, so you have the "feel" of a
single driver.

That is because they (the panels) have been designed and developed to
be that way. They probably had a very disjointed sound in the first
model they built; it would have taken many iterations to refine the
design to the point where it all joined up nicely.

d

--
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

What's your view of speaker crossovers?
 

You should also know that the full-range driver is in fact a myth. They
are all dual cone devices with some sort of mechanical crossover

Hi Don - yes, the majority are as above, but I'm talking single cone
here.

http://www.bmm-electronics.com/Produ...roduct_ID=2731

Here's the frequency response:
http://www.bmm-electronics.com/docum...SPH-130ALc.pdf

The Jordan is similar.
http://www.ejjordan.co.uk/drivers/jx92.html

As you can see, you can just about coax enough bass from these
aluminium units and the highs are there. The Monacor isn't as peaky as
the fr suggests. I have a friend with the Jordans and in my opinion
they sound better with no tweeter. He's endlessly working on the
crossover - I think it's better without. Maybe it's a cop-out to not
use a crossover, but crossovers do alter the sound, and I'm not sure
it's worth it in the end.

What's your view of speaker crossovers?
 

On 19 Nov 2006 03:59:47 -0800, "Andy Evans"
wrote:

You should also know that the full-range driver is in fact a myth. They
are all dual cone devices with some sort of mechanical crossover

Hi Don - yes, the majority are as above, but I'm talking single cone
here.

http://www.bmm-electronics.com/Produ...roduct_ID=2731

Here's the frequency response:
http://www.bmm-electronics.com/docum...SPH-130ALc.pdf


Well, that one goes really nasty above about 4kHz, so you would want
to be crossing over into a tweeter at no more than 2kHz to keep that
lump from making this one screech. I wouldn't want to try for a single
driver speaker using this driver - and nor would the manufacturers,
reading their web site.

I am also curious as to why the response starts falling below 150Hz. I
can't see any reason for it in the impedance curve or T-S parameters.

This will also really need helping out at the bottom end with a
subwoofer if you want deep bass. Its Xmax isn't up to shifting a great
deal of air.


The Jordan is similar.
http://www.ejjordan.co.uk/drivers/jx92.html

As you can see, you can just about coax enough bass from these
aluminium units and the highs are there. The Monacor isn't as peaky as
the fr suggests. I have a friend with the Jordans and in my opinion
they sound better with no tweeter. He's endlessly working on the
crossover - I think it's better without. Maybe it's a cop-out to not
use a crossover, but crossovers do alter the sound, and I'm not sure
it's worth it in the end.

If you are adding a tweeter, you absolutely must have a crossover -
there is no way tweeters can handle bass frequencies. But this
certainly isn't a "just do it" sort of thing. You do need to put in
the work to integrate their responses together, otherwise you will
have a bad-sounding setup.

d

--
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

What's your view of speaker crossovers?
 

Andy Evans wrote:

...crossovers do alter the sound, and I'm not sure it's worth it in the end.

Do they? Leaving aside the question of inaccurate implementations,
I'm not convinced that any sensible crossover has an audible effect
on the sound. By sensible, I mean like a fourth order Linkwitz-Riley
where the outputs are in phase with each other at all frequencies and
the sum of the output voltages has the same frequency response as the
original. Of course, the phase is changed but ears don't respond to phase.

--
Eiron.

What's your view of speaker crossovers?
 

"Andy Evans" wrote in message
oups.com...
You should also know that the full-range driver is in fact a myth. They
are all dual cone devices with some sort of mechanical crossover

Hi Don - yes, the majority are as above, but I'm talking single cone
here.


I would also disagree with Don's statement, especially if you take the
umpteen million single cone/FR drivers that are used worldwide in radios,
TVs, cars &c. - I certainly have single cone Visaton drivers on the go here
myself...


As you can see, you can just about coax enough bass from these
aluminium units and the highs are there. The Monacor isn't as peaky as
the fr suggests. I have a friend with the Jordans and in my opinion
they sound better with no tweeter. He's endlessly working on the
crossover - I think it's better without. Maybe it's a cop-out to not
use a crossover, but crossovers do alter the sound, and I'm not sure
it's worth it in the end.



Hah!

It never fails to amaze me that, given the extremely low rate of traffic
here, just how *topical* the group continually manages to be! Only yesterday
I finally consigned my Jerichos to the garage for all eternity* having
decided that they will never be any good without correction networks to
contain the peakiness that has remained constant with summat like 4
different drivers being tried!

I found these pages to be very informative:

http://www.termpro.com/articles/xover.html

http://www.termpro.com/articles/xover2.html

but still don't understand the technology/science well enough to consider
efforts made *trying* various networks to be likely worth the
risk/time/energy/expense - too much likelihood of a 'near miss' and endless,
ongoing experimentation...!! (As your friend seems to be discovering!)

In any case, at best, I see multiway speakers with complicated crossovers
(19 elements in the B&W TLs I had and a crossover bigger than many amps in
the Rogers Studio Monitors I had) as a costly fudge to allow the use of
drivers that will provide unnecessary frequency extremes at the cost of
immediacy, speed, timbre and clarity - see:

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/LS35a.JPG

for mention of a good example of a popular speaker (or type of speaker) that
is liked and used by many, despite not appearing to 'have it on paper'...??

As I do from time to time, I did a 'back to basics' SS amp/CD/2-way speaker
(Ruarks) comparison the other day and was quite surprised just how muddy and
blurry the sound was compared to my Lowthers - I had forgotten that the
setup that works brilliantly for TV/Movies (on a daily basis) is quite
useless for music! (So *boring* after the FR units.....!!??)


*Unless anybody wants to take them on a swap 'em for summat interesting...??

See the details he

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/fostexfe206e/fostex.htm

- but expect the wording to be changed in the near future and don't
underestimate the size/weight of them!

What's your view of speaker crossovers?
 

On Sun, 19 Nov 2006 12:56:28 -0000, "Keith G"
wrote:

You should also know that the full-range driver is in fact a myth. They
are all dual cone devices with some sort of mechanical crossover

Hi Don - yes, the majority are as above, but I'm talking single cone
here.


I would also disagree with Don's statement, especially if you take the
umpteen million single cone/FR drivers that are used worldwide in radios,
TVs, cars &c. - I certainly have single cone Visaton drivers on the go here
myself...

Well, those umpteen million single cone drivers in TVs and radios are
anything but FR - they pretty much universally have no bass and no
treble.

Which Visatons do you have again? I've just looked at their web site,
and everything I can find has a separate treble unit of one sort or
another in the middle of the bass cone.

d

--
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

What's your view of speaker crossovers?
 

In article .com,
Andy
Evans wrote:
You should also know that the full-range driver is in fact a myth. They
are all dual cone devices with some sort of mechanical crossover

Hi Don - yes, the majority are as above, but I'm talking single cone
here.

If you are referring to single units, then do you not mean frequency
correction and/or matching networks, not 'crossover'?

As to your original question: My reaction is to choose by the results. :-)

My impression is that making a single driver speaker imposes such demanding
constraints on the design and use as to be rather limiting. But then my
reaction is to prefer (phased array) electrostatics to cone-and-box
speakers, anyway.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html

What's your view of speaker crossovers?
 

"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 19 Nov 2006 12:56:28 -0000, "Keith G"
wrote:

You should also know that the full-range driver is in fact a myth. They
are all dual cone devices with some sort of mechanical crossover

Hi Don - yes, the majority are as above, but I'm talking single cone
here.


I would also disagree with Don's statement, especially if you take the
umpteen million single cone/FR drivers that are used worldwide in radios,
TVs, cars &c. - I certainly have single cone Visaton drivers on the go
here
myself...

Well, those umpteen million single cone drivers in TVs and radios are
anything but FR - they pretty much universally have no bass and no
treble.



Ah, but they *can* have - ask yer mate Dr Bose or any 'horn' cabinet
builder....!! ;-)



Which Visatons do you have again? I've just looked at their web site,
and everything I can find has a separate treble unit of one sort or
another in the middle of the bass cone.


FRS8s in the Needles and B200s back in their boxes....

http://www.impactaudio.co.uk/speaker...b6ddb0ba26b286


Let's put this 'frequency extremes' thing to bed once and for all - there is
no shortage of high frequency with just about all the drivers I have
used/considered and which quote a top end of 18K or better and up to 30K in
some instances. Bass is no worse than 'ordinary' speakers and is dependent
on cabinet/room science, as you know better than I.....

See again:

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/LS35a.JPG

for an example of a speaker with 'no frequency extremes' which would appear
to benefit from the use of a subwoofer in *no different way* to many (maybe
most) FR designs - *if* you need yer trousers flapped...!!

One visitor here, on hearing my Pinkies...

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/busc.../buschorns.htm

"Whoah! They've got more bass than my AEs...!!"

(The pinkies have 4" FR drivers and the AEs are/were 3-way floorstanding
speakers with 165mm bass units - EVO 3s??)

What's your view of speaker crossovers?
 

In article ,
Keith G wrote:

"Andy Evans" wrote in message
oups.com...
You should also know that the full-range driver is in fact a myth. They
are all dual cone devices with some sort of mechanical crossover

Hi Don - yes, the majority are as above, but I'm talking single cone
here.


I would also disagree with Don's statement, especially if you take the
umpteen million single cone/FR drivers that are used worldwide in
radios, TVs, cars &c.

These are 'full range', are they? I suppose it depends on what your range
is. But I can't think of any decent ICE setup that uses single drivers -
quite the reverse in fact. Nor of *any* TV set with a decent internal
speaker setup.


- I certainly have single cone Visaton drivers on
the go here myself...


As you can see, you can just about coax enough bass from these
aluminium units and the highs are there. The Monacor isn't as peaky as
the fr suggests. I have a friend with the Jordans and in my opinion
they sound better with no tweeter. He's endlessly working on the
crossover - I think it's better without. Maybe it's a cop-out to not
use a crossover, but crossovers do alter the sound, and I'm not sure
it's worth it in the end.



Hah!

It never fails to amaze me that, given the extremely low rate of traffic
here, just how *topical* the group continually manages to be! Only
yesterday I finally consigned my Jerichos to the garage for all
eternity* having decided that they will never be any good without
correction networks to contain the peakiness that has remained constant
with summat like 4 different drivers being tried!

I found these pages to be very informative:

http://www.termpro.com/articles/xover.html

http://www.termpro.com/articles/xover2.html

but still don't understand the technology/science well enough to
consider efforts made *trying* various networks to be likely worth the
risk/time/energy/expense - too much likelihood of a 'near miss' and
endless, ongoing experimentation...!! (As your friend seems to be
discovering!)

In any case, at best, I see multiway speakers with complicated
crossovers (19 elements in the B&W TLs I had and a crossover bigger
than many amps in the Rogers Studio Monitors I had) as a costly fudge
to allow the use of drivers that will provide unnecessary frequency
extremes

Like over about 2 kHz? ;-)


at the cost of immediacy, speed, timbre and clarity

Ah. Those flowery expressions again. Wish I knew what they meant - or were
intended to mean. I'll try:-

Immediacy:- I've failed.
Speed:- A small unit can move faster than a large one.
Timb- Mostly provided by the cabinet.
Clarity:- Mostly provided with no cabinet.

- see:

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/LS35a.JPG

for mention of a good example of a popular speaker (or type of speaker)
that is liked and used by many, despite not appearing to 'have it on
paper'...??

The 3/5a has a very involved crossover to allow for production tolerances
of the drive units. They also are poor at maintaining their performance
over the years.

As I do from time to time, I did a 'back to basics' SS amp/CD/2-way
speaker (Ruarks) comparison the other day and was quite surprised just
how muddy and blurry the sound was compared to my Lowthers - I had
forgotten that the setup that works brilliantly for TV/Movies (on a
daily basis) is quite useless for music! (So *boring* after the FR
units.....!!??)

A system which does well on all types of music will also be more than
suitable for TV/movies. Unless you think these things are balanced of some
strange exotic setups? Of course you *might* want more power for the jets
taking off on Top Gun etc...


*Unless anybody wants to take them on a swap 'em for summat
interesting...??

See the details he

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/fostexfe206e/fostex.htm

- but expect the wording to be changed in the near future and don't
underestimate the size/weight of them!

Seems only yesterday they were impressing the milkman. ;-)

--
*He who laughs last, thinks slowest.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.