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What's your view of speaker crossovers?



 
 
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  #1 (permalink)  
Old November 20th 06, 05:16 PM posted to uk.rec.audio
Keith G
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Posts: 7,388
Default What's your view of speaker crossovers?


"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
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OK, here we go - this is the setup:

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show...Setup%2001.JPG

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show...Setup%2002.JPG

and here is the track:

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show...,%20SE1As).mp3

...and here's the Lowther track again for direct
comparison (if anyone else is interested):

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/Track10.mp3

Missing - track10 from the original source.



Here you go:

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show...0In%20Love.mp3

...seein's as how ya arst so nice like....

Clipped to blue blazes. Is that what you played through
the speakers?


Yes and no - that's a straight computer CD to HDD rip via
Sound Forge (in the normal manner, done some time back),


Good enough.

what I played (and recorded yesterday and today) was the
*original* CD (in two different Pioneer DVDPs)....???


Probably much the same was coming out of the optical players.

Weird - my 'open mic' recordings are better (levelswise)
than the computer rip...???


No, but the frequency response variations make the clipped signals appear
to be unclipped. I've seen this many times. The same is true of
compression. Highly compressed songs will lose their flat envelope look
(and to some degree their flat sound) if you apply some eq.




OK, that's very interesting.

I routinely rip each and every CD that comes my way and a lot of them are
painted the same colour (blue in SF) all the way from *ceiling to floor*
these days and I've long since stopped noticing it!!

Aside, I contacted your link on the Rode mics and got a shipping price of
52+ bucks and notification of a very *helpful* 'standard value' that is put
on the packaging in 'export' circumstances..!!??

Probably still going to stack up uneconomic (oops - little pun there)
though....



  #2 (permalink)  
Old November 20th 06, 09:45 PM posted to uk.rec.audio
Arny Krueger
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Posts: 3,850
Default What's your view of speaker crossovers?

"Keith G" wrote in message
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"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
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"Keith G" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
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"Keith G" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
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"Keith G" wrote in message


OK, here we go - this is the setup:

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show...Setup%2001.JPG

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show...Setup%2002.JPG

and here is the track:

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show...,%20SE1As).mp3

...and here's the Lowther track again for direct
comparison (if anyone else is interested):

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/Track10.mp3

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show...0In%20Love.mp3


Interesting to ABX, level matched.

I hate to sound like an ingrate but the Ruarks and their associated amps
combined to add fairly massive amounts of even order distortion - no doubt
10%. It is audible, man is it audible! Note what happens to the sound of the
triangle.

The nonlinear distortion is also hihgly visible in a visual display
(CoolEdit). The source material being hihgly clipped, has very symmetrical
tops and bottoms. After a trip through the amp+speakers, it is very
asymmetrical.

If you like your percussion extra crunchy, this might be your preference. I
like my percussion crisp, if that is how the origional recording is.


  #3 (permalink)  
Old November 20th 06, 10:35 PM posted to uk.rec.audio
Keith G
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Posts: 7,388
Default What's your view of speaker crossovers?


"Arny Krueger" wrote


Interesting to ABX, level matched.

I hate to sound like an ingrate but the Ruarks and their associated amps
combined to add fairly massive amounts of even order distortion - no doubt
10%. It is audible, man is it audible! Note what happens to the sound of

the triangle.

The nonlinear distortion is also hihgly visible in a visual display
(CoolEdit). The source material being hihgly clipped, has very symmetrical
tops and bottoms. After a trip through the amp+speakers, it is very
asymmetrical.

If you like your percussion extra crunchy, this might be your preference.
I like my percussion crisp, if that is how the origional recording is.




OK, to round it off, I have posted a couple of (identical?) 30sec extracts
from the original WAVs to remove any 'MP3 spuriae' and have more clearly
titled them:

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show...%20Extract.wav

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show...%20Extract.wav


But have a care Arny, mon brave - if I read the above right (?) and you are
saying you prefer the Fidelio treble (as I do) then it's a vote for triodes
and horns over the 'normal' 2-way speakers on the Sony SS AV amp under the
telly in this pic:

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show...Setup%2001.JPG

(The Pioneer DVDP is with the projector - not in the pic...)

Bass is not the issue here - there never was any suggestion (from me) that a
pair of FR horns would ever 'outbass' a normal speaker with 215mm (Focal)
drivers and the fact that the 'lite bass' of the Fidelios suits my small
listening room better is also neither here nor there in this comparison....



  #4 (permalink)  
Old November 20th 06, 10:54 PM posted to uk.rec.audio
Keith G
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Posts: 7,388
Default What's your view of speaker crossovers?


"Keith G" wrote


OK, to round it off, I have posted a couple of (identical?) 30sec extracts
from the original WAVs to remove any 'MP3 spuriae' and have more clearly
titled them:

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show...%20Extract.wav

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show...%20Extract.wav





Strikes me that those clips also serve to illustrate my recent remarks about
'speed and immediacy' quite well - AFAIAC, the Fidelios demonstrate clear
superiority in both these aspects, making the Ruarks seem quite ponderous by
comparison....??

No-one else see (hear) it....??



  #5 (permalink)  
Old November 21st 06, 01:14 PM posted to uk.rec.audio
Arny Krueger
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,850
Default What's your view of speaker crossovers?

"Keith G" wrote in message


OK, to round it off, I have posted a couple of
(identical?) 30sec extracts from the original WAVs to
remove any 'MP3 spuriae' and have more clearly titled
them:
http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show...%20Extract.wav


http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show...%20Extract.wav


Very different samples from before, even though the music is a subset of
what came before. They also showed up rather precisely level-matched.

But have a care Arny, mon brave - if I read the above
right (?) and you are saying you prefer the Fidelio
treble (as I do) then it's a vote for triodes and horns


No, I still prefer the Fidelios sample, and I still hear a crunching sort
distortion on the Ruarks sample, instead of the more natural crisp sound of
undistorted percussion.

I also analyzed the two samples technically, and can see a big hole around
2KHz, and peakiness around 18 KHz in the Ruarks sample.


  #6 (permalink)  
Old November 21st 06, 04:06 PM posted to uk.rec.audio
Keith G
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 7,388
Default What's your view of speaker crossovers?


"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Keith G" wrote in message


OK, to round it off, I have posted a couple of
(identical?) 30sec extracts from the original WAVs to
remove any 'MP3 spuriae' and have more clearly titled
them:
http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show...%20Extract.wav


http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show...%20Extract.wav


Very different samples from before, even though the music is a subset of
what came before.



Sure, the previous MP3s were made from the same WAVs as the above extracts
(contrary to what one or two here seem to think, I have never *knowingly*
posted BS in this group! ;-) but your comment is an interesting one - that
MP3s do seem to represent a considerably 'altered state' from the original,
even though I think they can sound perfectly fine in the right circumstances
if the bitrate is high enough!


They also showed up rather precisely level-matched.


That would be more by luck than judgement - the levels were set by 'eye' but
it is a lot easier now on my cracking little (Yankee) tube pre's which have
the usual two ranges (Norm and +20dB) and which give me 2x almost a full
rotation's worth of adjustment....



But have a care Arny, mon brave - if I read the above
right (?) and you are saying you prefer the Fidelio
treble (as I do) then it's a vote for triodes and horns


No, I still prefer the Fidelios sample, and I still hear a crunching sort
distortion on the Ruarks sample, instead of the more natural crisp sound
of undistorted percussion.



I perhaps should have mentioned there was an SS pre driving the 300B amp
(beefs the sound up to ridiculous levels if/when required and gives me
remote volume control!!), but I think the comparison of the upper limits of
(certain/most/all??) FR drivers and 'normal tweeters' are one of those
situations where the 'appearances on paper' and the actual sounds produced
don't necessarily line up....



I also analyzed the two samples technically, and can see a big hole around
2KHz, and peakiness around 18 KHz in the Ruarks sample.



Interesting. When I bought the Paladins they were at a very good price
(then) from one of the shops in town, but the boxes were marked 'seconds'. I
phoned Ruark and the chap there looked them up - the shop had bought a job
lot which were all marked 'seconds', but mine had been out on exhibition
work is all. One thing the guy said was that there was a note 'in the book'
that one of the crossovers was 'blackened' (??) - I asked if it was likely
to be a problem, he said no....(??)

In any case, the crossover point is 2.8k, as can be seen from the manual:

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/paladin.JPG


Continuing my 'revisit' of them, I was running them quite loud earlier today
and every upright surface in the place was thrumming, but I think I have
evolved too far away from that type of sound to enjoy them now - they do a
super (invisible) job on the telly and movies (*and* match the nearby
piano), so I think they have found their rightful place!

:-)




 




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