|
|
What's your view of speaker crossovers?
For years I've been using a single driver now (Monacor 130AL, aluminium
cone like a Jordan). Of course it's not perfect - bass is only just there and treble could be better. That's the deal. But nevertheless I add ribbon tweeters (Decca) and take them away. Yes, the ribbon sounds better but the crossover doesn't. So, what do you guys feel rocks your boat? Are you in the camp of full frequency response or that of total integrity (or whatever words you feel describes a single driver)? As a reference, the best speakers I know are panels like Magneplanar or even better Apogee - yes they have crossovers but the sound remains the same top to bottom in terms of delicacy, so you have the "feel" of a single driver. |
What's your view of speaker crossovers?
On 18 Nov 2006 15:38:33 -0800, "Andy Evans"
wrote: For years I've been using a single driver now (Monacor 130AL, aluminium cone like a Jordan). Of course it's not perfect - bass is only just there and treble could be better. That's the deal. But nevertheless I add ribbon tweeters (Decca) and take them away. Yes, the ribbon sounds better but the crossover doesn't. Not entirely sure what you are saying here - do you meant he sound is not good around the crossover region? You do understand that this isn't going to work simply by bolting a tweeter alongside a single full-range driver; you need to get a proper bass unit that isn't trying to operate up in the treble region. You should also know that the full-range driver is in fact a myth. They are all dual cone devices with some sort of mechanical crossover built into the junction of the cones. Obviously they can't be designed and configured anything like as cleanly as one implemented with and L and a C. So, what do you guys feel rocks your boat? Are you in the camp of full frequency response or that of total integrity (or whatever words you feel describes a single driver)? I do have a system that provides full frequency response with the integrity of a single driver - my Stax electrostatic headphones. As a reference, the best speakers I know are panels like Magneplanar or even better Apogee - yes they have crossovers but the sound remains the same top to bottom in terms of delicacy, so you have the "feel" of a single driver. That is because they (the panels) have been designed and developed to be that way. They probably had a very disjointed sound in the first model they built; it would have taken many iterations to refine the design to the point where it all joined up nicely. d -- Pearce Consulting http://www.pearce.uk.com |
What's your view of speaker crossovers?
You should also know that the full-range driver is in fact a myth. They
are all dual cone devices with some sort of mechanical crossover Hi Don - yes, the majority are as above, but I'm talking single cone here. http://www.bmm-electronics.com/Produ...roduct_ID=2731 Here's the frequency response: http://www.bmm-electronics.com/docum...SPH-130ALc.pdf The Jordan is similar. http://www.ejjordan.co.uk/drivers/jx92.html As you can see, you can just about coax enough bass from these aluminium units and the highs are there. The Monacor isn't as peaky as the fr suggests. I have a friend with the Jordans and in my opinion they sound better with no tweeter. He's endlessly working on the crossover - I think it's better without. Maybe it's a cop-out to not use a crossover, but crossovers do alter the sound, and I'm not sure it's worth it in the end. |
What's your view of speaker crossovers?
On 19 Nov 2006 03:59:47 -0800, "Andy Evans"
wrote: You should also know that the full-range driver is in fact a myth. They are all dual cone devices with some sort of mechanical crossover Hi Don - yes, the majority are as above, but I'm talking single cone here. http://www.bmm-electronics.com/Produ...roduct_ID=2731 Here's the frequency response: http://www.bmm-electronics.com/docum...SPH-130ALc.pdf Well, that one goes really nasty above about 4kHz, so you would want to be crossing over into a tweeter at no more than 2kHz to keep that lump from making this one screech. I wouldn't want to try for a single driver speaker using this driver - and nor would the manufacturers, reading their web site. I am also curious as to why the response starts falling below 150Hz. I can't see any reason for it in the impedance curve or T-S parameters. This will also really need helping out at the bottom end with a subwoofer if you want deep bass. Its Xmax isn't up to shifting a great deal of air. The Jordan is similar. http://www.ejjordan.co.uk/drivers/jx92.html As you can see, you can just about coax enough bass from these aluminium units and the highs are there. The Monacor isn't as peaky as the fr suggests. I have a friend with the Jordans and in my opinion they sound better with no tweeter. He's endlessly working on the crossover - I think it's better without. Maybe it's a cop-out to not use a crossover, but crossovers do alter the sound, and I'm not sure it's worth it in the end. If you are adding a tweeter, you absolutely must have a crossover - there is no way tweeters can handle bass frequencies. But this certainly isn't a "just do it" sort of thing. You do need to put in the work to integrate their responses together, otherwise you will have a bad-sounding setup. d -- Pearce Consulting http://www.pearce.uk.com |
What's your view of speaker crossovers?
Andy Evans wrote:
...crossovers do alter the sound, and I'm not sure it's worth it in the end. Do they? Leaving aside the question of inaccurate implementations, I'm not convinced that any sensible crossover has an audible effect on the sound. By sensible, I mean like a fourth order Linkwitz-Riley where the outputs are in phase with each other at all frequencies and the sum of the output voltages has the same frequency response as the original. Of course, the phase is changed but ears don't respond to phase. -- Eiron. |
What's your view of speaker crossovers?
"Andy Evans" wrote in message oups.com... You should also know that the full-range driver is in fact a myth. They are all dual cone devices with some sort of mechanical crossover Hi Don - yes, the majority are as above, but I'm talking single cone here. I would also disagree with Don's statement, especially if you take the umpteen million single cone/FR drivers that are used worldwide in radios, TVs, cars &c. - I certainly have single cone Visaton drivers on the go here myself... As you can see, you can just about coax enough bass from these aluminium units and the highs are there. The Monacor isn't as peaky as the fr suggests. I have a friend with the Jordans and in my opinion they sound better with no tweeter. He's endlessly working on the crossover - I think it's better without. Maybe it's a cop-out to not use a crossover, but crossovers do alter the sound, and I'm not sure it's worth it in the end. Hah! It never fails to amaze me that, given the extremely low rate of traffic here, just how *topical* the group continually manages to be! Only yesterday I finally consigned my Jerichos to the garage for all eternity* having decided that they will never be any good without correction networks to contain the peakiness that has remained constant with summat like 4 different drivers being tried! I found these pages to be very informative: http://www.termpro.com/articles/xover.html http://www.termpro.com/articles/xover2.html but still don't understand the technology/science well enough to consider efforts made *trying* various networks to be likely worth the risk/time/energy/expense - too much likelihood of a 'near miss' and endless, ongoing experimentation...!! (As your friend seems to be discovering!) In any case, at best, I see multiway speakers with complicated crossovers (19 elements in the B&W TLs I had and a crossover bigger than many amps in the Rogers Studio Monitors I had) as a costly fudge to allow the use of drivers that will provide unnecessary frequency extremes at the cost of immediacy, speed, timbre and clarity - see: http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/LS35a.JPG for mention of a good example of a popular speaker (or type of speaker) that is liked and used by many, despite not appearing to 'have it on paper'...?? As I do from time to time, I did a 'back to basics' SS amp/CD/2-way speaker (Ruarks) comparison the other day and was quite surprised just how muddy and blurry the sound was compared to my Lowthers - I had forgotten that the setup that works brilliantly for TV/Movies (on a daily basis) is quite useless for music! (So *boring* after the FR units.....!!??) *Unless anybody wants to take them on a swap 'em for summat interesting...?? See the details he http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/fostexfe206e/fostex.htm - but expect the wording to be changed in the near future and don't underestimate the size/weight of them! |
What's your view of speaker crossovers?
On Sun, 19 Nov 2006 12:56:28 -0000, "Keith G"
wrote: You should also know that the full-range driver is in fact a myth. They are all dual cone devices with some sort of mechanical crossover Hi Don - yes, the majority are as above, but I'm talking single cone here. I would also disagree with Don's statement, especially if you take the umpteen million single cone/FR drivers that are used worldwide in radios, TVs, cars &c. - I certainly have single cone Visaton drivers on the go here myself... Well, those umpteen million single cone drivers in TVs and radios are anything but FR - they pretty much universally have no bass and no treble. Which Visatons do you have again? I've just looked at their web site, and everything I can find has a separate treble unit of one sort or another in the middle of the bass cone. d -- Pearce Consulting http://www.pearce.uk.com |
What's your view of speaker crossovers?
In article .com,
Andy Evans wrote: You should also know that the full-range driver is in fact a myth. They are all dual cone devices with some sort of mechanical crossover Hi Don - yes, the majority are as above, but I'm talking single cone here. If you are referring to single units, then do you not mean frequency correction and/or matching networks, not 'crossover'? As to your original question: My reaction is to choose by the results. :-) My impression is that making a single driver speaker imposes such demanding constraints on the design and use as to be rather limiting. But then my reaction is to prefer (phased array) electrostatics to cone-and-box speakers, anyway. Slainte, Jim -- Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html |
What's your view of speaker crossovers?
"Don Pearce" wrote in message ... On Sun, 19 Nov 2006 12:56:28 -0000, "Keith G" wrote: You should also know that the full-range driver is in fact a myth. They are all dual cone devices with some sort of mechanical crossover Hi Don - yes, the majority are as above, but I'm talking single cone here. I would also disagree with Don's statement, especially if you take the umpteen million single cone/FR drivers that are used worldwide in radios, TVs, cars &c. - I certainly have single cone Visaton drivers on the go here myself... Well, those umpteen million single cone drivers in TVs and radios are anything but FR - they pretty much universally have no bass and no treble. Ah, but they *can* have - ask yer mate Dr Bose or any 'horn' cabinet builder....!! ;-) Which Visatons do you have again? I've just looked at their web site, and everything I can find has a separate treble unit of one sort or another in the middle of the bass cone. FRS8s in the Needles and B200s back in their boxes.... http://www.impactaudio.co.uk/speaker...b6ddb0ba26b286 Let's put this 'frequency extremes' thing to bed once and for all - there is no shortage of high frequency with just about all the drivers I have used/considered and which quote a top end of 18K or better and up to 30K in some instances. Bass is no worse than 'ordinary' speakers and is dependent on cabinet/room science, as you know better than I..... See again: http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/LS35a.JPG for an example of a speaker with 'no frequency extremes' which would appear to benefit from the use of a subwoofer in *no different way* to many (maybe most) FR designs - *if* you need yer trousers flapped...!! One visitor here, on hearing my Pinkies... http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/busc.../buschorns.htm "Whoah! They've got more bass than my AEs...!!" (The pinkies have 4" FR drivers and the AEs are/were 3-way floorstanding speakers with 165mm bass units - EVO 3s??) |
What's your view of speaker crossovers?
In article ,
Keith G wrote: "Andy Evans" wrote in message oups.com... You should also know that the full-range driver is in fact a myth. They are all dual cone devices with some sort of mechanical crossover Hi Don - yes, the majority are as above, but I'm talking single cone here. I would also disagree with Don's statement, especially if you take the umpteen million single cone/FR drivers that are used worldwide in radios, TVs, cars &c. These are 'full range', are they? I suppose it depends on what your range is. But I can't think of any decent ICE setup that uses single drivers - quite the reverse in fact. Nor of *any* TV set with a decent internal speaker setup. - I certainly have single cone Visaton drivers on the go here myself... As you can see, you can just about coax enough bass from these aluminium units and the highs are there. The Monacor isn't as peaky as the fr suggests. I have a friend with the Jordans and in my opinion they sound better with no tweeter. He's endlessly working on the crossover - I think it's better without. Maybe it's a cop-out to not use a crossover, but crossovers do alter the sound, and I'm not sure it's worth it in the end. Hah! It never fails to amaze me that, given the extremely low rate of traffic here, just how *topical* the group continually manages to be! Only yesterday I finally consigned my Jerichos to the garage for all eternity* having decided that they will never be any good without correction networks to contain the peakiness that has remained constant with summat like 4 different drivers being tried! I found these pages to be very informative: http://www.termpro.com/articles/xover.html http://www.termpro.com/articles/xover2.html but still don't understand the technology/science well enough to consider efforts made *trying* various networks to be likely worth the risk/time/energy/expense - too much likelihood of a 'near miss' and endless, ongoing experimentation...!! (As your friend seems to be discovering!) In any case, at best, I see multiway speakers with complicated crossovers (19 elements in the B&W TLs I had and a crossover bigger than many amps in the Rogers Studio Monitors I had) as a costly fudge to allow the use of drivers that will provide unnecessary frequency extremes Like over about 2 kHz? ;-) at the cost of immediacy, speed, timbre and clarity Ah. Those flowery expressions again. Wish I knew what they meant - or were intended to mean. I'll try:- Immediacy:- I've failed. Speed:- A small unit can move faster than a large one. Timb- Mostly provided by the cabinet. Clarity:- Mostly provided with no cabinet. - see: http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/LS35a.JPG for mention of a good example of a popular speaker (or type of speaker) that is liked and used by many, despite not appearing to 'have it on paper'...?? The 3/5a has a very involved crossover to allow for production tolerances of the drive units. They also are poor at maintaining their performance over the years. As I do from time to time, I did a 'back to basics' SS amp/CD/2-way speaker (Ruarks) comparison the other day and was quite surprised just how muddy and blurry the sound was compared to my Lowthers - I had forgotten that the setup that works brilliantly for TV/Movies (on a daily basis) is quite useless for music! (So *boring* after the FR units.....!!??) A system which does well on all types of music will also be more than suitable for TV/movies. Unless you think these things are balanced of some strange exotic setups? Of course you *might* want more power for the jets taking off on Top Gun etc... *Unless anybody wants to take them on a swap 'em for summat interesting...?? See the details he http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/fostexfe206e/fostex.htm - but expect the wording to be changed in the near future and don't underestimate the size/weight of them! Seems only yesterday they were impressing the milkman. ;-) -- *He who laughs last, thinks slowest. Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
What's your view of speaker crossovers?
In article ,
Keith G wrote: Well, those umpteen million single cone drivers in TVs and radios are anything but FR - they pretty much universally have no bass and no treble. Ah, but they *can* have - ask yer mate Dr Bose or any 'horn' cabinet builder....!! ;-) Which is why both these produce incredibly 'coloured' sound. -- *Why are a wise man and a wise guy opposites? Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
What's your view of speaker crossovers?
On Sun, 19 Nov 2006 13:49:24 -0000, "Keith G"
wrote: "Don Pearce" wrote in message ... On Sun, 19 Nov 2006 12:56:28 -0000, "Keith G" wrote: You should also know that the full-range driver is in fact a myth. They are all dual cone devices with some sort of mechanical crossover Hi Don - yes, the majority are as above, but I'm talking single cone here. I would also disagree with Don's statement, especially if you take the umpteen million single cone/FR drivers that are used worldwide in radios, TVs, cars &c. - I certainly have single cone Visaton drivers on the go here myself... Well, those umpteen million single cone drivers in TVs and radios are anything but FR - they pretty much universally have no bass and no treble. Ah, but they *can* have - ask yer mate Dr Bose or any 'horn' cabinet builder....!! ;-) No, they can't. Dr. Bose's reputation goes before him as a marketeer, but his speakers are universally derided among the cognoscenti (and they do sound genuinely horrible). And of course horns make no difference to treble, and can only increase bass down to the wavelength limit of the horn's dimensions - I've never come across one with the twenty feet or so you would need to get true bass out of them, although I have seen pictures of builds by the certifiable. Which Visatons do you have again? I've just looked at their web site, and everything I can find has a separate treble unit of one sort or another in the middle of the bass cone. FRS8s in the Needles and B200s back in their boxes.... http://www.impactaudio.co.uk/speaker...b6ddb0ba26b286 Let's put this 'frequency extremes' thing to bed once and for all - there is no shortage of high frequency with just about all the drivers I have used/considered and which quote a top end of 18K or better and up to 30K in some instances. Bass is no worse than 'ordinary' speakers and is dependent on cabinet/room science, as you know better than I..... Didn't we measure your speakers and find them rolling off severely above 10kHz? As for bass, we also found that there was nothing below about 60Hz - which makes total sense for the dimensions you have. I have a tiny pair of bookshelves in front f me (KEF Cresta 10) which do at least as well, probably rather better. Top end of course - no comparison. See again: http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/LS35a.JPG for an example of a speaker with 'no frequency extremes' which would appear to benefit from the use of a subwoofer in *no different way* to many (maybe most) FR designs - *if* you need yer trousers flapped...!! The LS35a was designed for a purpose, and it fitted that very well. It was for monitoring BBC programme material. Extremes of bass and treble formed no part of the BBC output, so didn't need monitoring. Sure people adopted them for home listening, at which point the shortcomings started revealing themselves, so subwoofers got added. One visitor here, on hearing my Pinkies... http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/busc.../buschorns.htm "Whoah! They've got more bass than my AEs...!!" (The pinkies have 4" FR drivers and the AEs are/were 3-way floorstanding speakers with 165mm bass units - EVO 3s??) Yup, and we both know what that is all about. It is why those really cheap home cinema kits can have subwoofers that go no lower than 100Hz - make it boom a bit and it sounds like bass - until you hear the real thing, that is. You really do need to think some more about that subwoofer, you know ;-) d -- Pearce Consulting http://www.pearce.uk.com |
What's your view of speaker crossovers?
"Don Pearce" wrote in message ... On Sun, 19 Nov 2006 13:49:24 -0000, "Keith G" wrote: "Don Pearce" wrote in message .. . On Sun, 19 Nov 2006 12:56:28 -0000, "Keith G" wrote: You should also know that the full-range driver is in fact a myth. They are all dual cone devices with some sort of mechanical crossover Hi Don - yes, the majority are as above, but I'm talking single cone here. I would also disagree with Don's statement, especially if you take the umpteen million single cone/FR drivers that are used worldwide in radios, TVs, cars &c. - I certainly have single cone Visaton drivers on the go here myself... Well, those umpteen million single cone drivers in TVs and radios are anything but FR - they pretty much universally have no bass and no treble. Ah, but they *can* have - ask yer mate Dr Bose or any 'horn' cabinet builder....!! ;-) No, they can't. Dr. Bose's reputation goes before him as a marketeer, but his speakers are universally derided among the cognoscenti (and they do sound genuinely horrible). And of course horns make no difference to treble, and can only increase bass down to the wavelength limit of the horn's dimensions - I've never come across one with the twenty feet or so you would need to get true bass out of them, although I have seen pictures of builds by the certifiable. Which Visatons do you have again? I've just looked at their web site, and everything I can find has a separate treble unit of one sort or another in the middle of the bass cone. FRS8s in the Needles and B200s back in their boxes.... http://www.impactaudio.co.uk/speaker...b6ddb0ba26b286 Let's put this 'frequency extremes' thing to bed once and for all - there is no shortage of high frequency with just about all the drivers I have used/considered and which quote a top end of 18K or better and up to 30K in some instances. Bass is no worse than 'ordinary' speakers and is dependent on cabinet/room science, as you know better than I..... Didn't we measure your speakers and find them rolling off severely above 10kHz? As for bass, we also found that there was nothing below about 60Hz - which makes total sense for the dimensions you have. I have a tiny pair of bookshelves in front f me (KEF Cresta 10) which do at least as well, probably rather better. Top end of course - no comparison. See again: http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/LS35a.JPG for an example of a speaker with 'no frequency extremes' which would appear to benefit from the use of a subwoofer in *no different way* to many (maybe most) FR designs - *if* you need yer trousers flapped...!! The LS35a was designed for a purpose, and it fitted that very well. It was for monitoring BBC programme material. Extremes of bass and treble formed no part of the BBC output, so didn't need monitoring. Sure people adopted them for home listening, at which point the shortcomings started revealing themselves, so subwoofers got added. One visitor here, on hearing my Pinkies... http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/busc.../buschorns.htm "Whoah! They've got more bass than my AEs...!!" (The pinkies have 4" FR drivers and the AEs are/were 3-way floorstanding speakers with 165mm bass units - EVO 3s??) Yup, and we both know what that is all about. It is why those really cheap home cinema kits can have subwoofers that go no lower than 100Hz - make it boom a bit and it sounds like bass - until you hear the real thing, that is. You really do need to think some more about that subwoofer, you know ;-) Later, Don - I gotta grab some daylight and go walk the dog!! |
What's your view of speaker crossovers?
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message ... In article , Keith G wrote: Well, those umpteen million single cone drivers in TVs and radios are anything but FR - they pretty much universally have no bass and no treble. Ah, but they *can* have - ask yer mate Dr Bose or any 'horn' cabinet builder....!! ;-) Which is why both these produce incredibly 'coloured' sound. Ah. Those flowery expressions again. Wish I knew what they meant - or were intended to mean. What colour did you have in mind? Puce? Cerise? Eau De Nil...?? Burnt Umber....?? |
What's your view of speaker crossovers?
"Andy Evans" wrote in message
ups.com... For years I've been using a single driver now (Monacor 130AL, aluminium cone like a Jordan). Of course it's not perfect - bass is only just there and treble could be better. That's the deal. But nevertheless I add ribbon tweeters (Decca) and take them away. Yes, the ribbon sounds better but the crossover doesn't. So, what do you guys feel rocks your boat? Are you in the camp of full frequency response or that of total integrity (or whatever words you feel describes a single driver)? As a reference, the best speakers I know are panels like Magneplanar or even better Apogee - yes they have crossovers but the sound remains the same top to bottom in terms of delicacy, so you have the "feel" of a single driver. I thought that Decca had disappeared years ago, apart from Decca Records. Mike. |
What's your view of speaker crossovers?
In article ,
Keith G wrote: "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message ... In article , Keith G wrote: Well, those umpteen million single cone drivers in TVs and radios are anything but FR - they pretty much universally have no bass and no treble. Ah, but they *can* have - ask yer mate Dr Bose or any 'horn' cabinet builder....!! ;-) Which is why both these produce incredibly 'coloured' sound. Ah. Those flowery expressions again. Wish I knew what they meant - or were intended to mean. What colour did you have in mind? Puce? Cerise? Eau De Nil...?? Burnt Umber....?? Colouration of sound is a term that has been in use by pros ever since I started in the industry - and that's a long long time ago. Think of a PA system just before the point of howlround - that's colouration. Or the same with vinyl being played on certain turntables at high level. In other words an external influence on a sound. There now. That's an explanation. How about one for 'speed' and 'immediacy' ;-) -- *Where do forest rangers go to "get away from it all?" Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
What's your view of speaker crossovers?
In article ,
Keith G wrote: "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message ... In article , Keith G wrote: Well, those umpteen million single cone drivers in TVs and radios are anything but FR - they pretty much universally have no bass and no treble. Ah, but they *can* have - ask yer mate Dr Bose or any 'horn' cabinet builder....!! ;-) Which is why both these produce incredibly 'coloured' sound. Ah. Those flowery expressions again. Wish I knew what they meant - or were intended to mean. You might find this article to be of use. Consider it a form of advertising, though. http://www.harbeth.co.uk/designersno...r7-2/index.php -- *Fax is stronger than fiction * Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
What's your view of speaker crossovers?
Let's put this 'frequency extremes' thing to bed once and for all -
there is no shortage of high frequency with just about all the drivers I have used/considered The BBC traditionally only required sound flat to 13Khz. Being in my 50s, I consider that quite enough. I don't think it's the extension that matters but the delicacy and faithfullness of timbre. I'd prefer a ribbon for the treble, and I might eventually get it right (an active crossover would do the trick). But aluminium cones are really quite detailed and get most of it right. Eiron suggested that crossovers could be virtually inaudible in their effects. Even apart from the phase anomalies and design artefacts, they're made from componants, and componants affect the sound. A 47uF capacitor is no way going to be transparent - I can hear differences between different kinds of polypropylenes in this value, without even thinking of electrolytics, which I wouldn't have anywhere in the signal path of anything in my system. So I reject out of hand the idea that crossovers are virtually transparent. Of course the goal is, when using them, to make them sound the least un-transparent, and really good componants can go some way in that direction, so all isn't lost. Plus computer modelling helps a lot these days. The best way to do the crossover is no doubt in the digital domain - that really is something that interests me, having heard the Lyngdorf Audio stuff at the HiFi show, it was really impressive. |
What's your view of speaker crossovers?
I thought that Decca had disappeared years ago, apart from Decca
Records. Mike Too true, alas. These are old units I have. See them on ebay sometimes. |
What's your view of speaker crossovers?
"Don Pearce" wrote in message ... On Sun, 19 Nov 2006 13:49:24 -0000, "Keith G" wrote: "Don Pearce" wrote in message .. . On Sun, 19 Nov 2006 12:56:28 -0000, "Keith G" wrote: You should also know that the full-range driver is in fact a myth. They are all dual cone devices with some sort of mechanical crossover Hi Don - yes, the majority are as above, but I'm talking single cone here. I would also disagree with Don's statement, especially if you take the umpteen million single cone/FR drivers that are used worldwide in radios, TVs, cars &c. - I certainly have single cone Visaton drivers on the go here myself... Well, those umpteen million single cone drivers in TVs and radios are anything but FR - they pretty much universally have no bass and no treble. Ah, but they *can* have - ask yer mate Dr Bose or any 'horn' cabinet builder....!! ;-) No, they can't. Dr. Bose's reputation goes before him as a marketeer, but his speakers are universally derided among the cognoscenti (and they do sound genuinely horrible). And of course horns make no difference to treble, and can only increase bass down to the wavelength limit of the horn's dimensions - I've never come across one with the twenty feet or so you would need to get true bass out of them, although I have seen pictures of builds by the certifiable. I'm wary of terms like 'true bass' given that, at best, 'hifi' is a *depiction* of 'real sound' - but, surely it doesn't need to be repeated that nobody in his right mind would seek 'true bass' from horns or bookshelf speakers....??? Which Visatons do you have again? I've just looked at their web site, and everything I can find has a separate treble unit of one sort or another in the middle of the bass cone. FRS8s in the Needles and B200s back in their boxes.... http://www.impactaudio.co.uk/speaker...b6ddb0ba26b286 Let's put this 'frequency extremes' thing to bed once and for all - there is no shortage of high frequency with just about all the drivers I have used/considered and which quote a top end of 18K or better and up to 30K in some instances. Bass is no worse than 'ordinary' speakers and is dependent on cabinet/room science, as you know better than I..... Didn't we measure your speakers and find them rolling off severely above 10kHz? Read the numbers: Lowther PM6C (30 - 20k) Lowther EX3 (30 - 22k) Fostex FE103E (fs - 22k) Visaton B200 (fu - 18k) Visaton FRS8-8 (80 - 20k) None of the drivers I currently use quote a top end anything like as low as 10k. Consequently, I take all these 'readings/measurements' and various other figures with a pinch of salt - it what they *sound* like (overall) to me that counts... As for bass, we also found that there was nothing below about 60Hz - which makes total sense for the dimensions you have. I have a tiny pair of bookshelves in front f me (KEF Cresta 10) which do at least as well, probably rather better. Top end of course - no comparison. You are forgetting that I've had various examples of the following makes of speakers he KEF Tannoy Wharfedale Quad Dynaudio Ruark JM-Labs B&W Jamo (Concert 8s) Rogers plus probably others I can't recall...?? See again: http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/LS35a.JPG for an example of a speaker with 'no frequency extremes' which would appear to benefit from the use of a subwoofer in *no different way* to many (maybe most) FR designs - *if* you need yer trousers flapped...!! The LS35a was designed for a purpose, and it fitted that very well. It was for monitoring BBC programme material. Extremes of bass and treble formed no part of the BBC output, so didn't need monitoring. Sure people adopted them for home listening, at which point the shortcomings started revealing themselves, so subwoofers got added. I've not had anything like as much exposure to subs - all I can say is I've never yet had one here that I didn't switch off after a few minutes... One visitor here, on hearing my Pinkies... http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/busc.../buschorns.htm "Whoah! They've got more bass than my AEs...!!" (The pinkies have 4" FR drivers and the AEs are/were 3-way floorstanding speakers with 165mm bass units - EVO 3s??) Yup, and we both know what that is all about. It is why those really cheap home cinema kits can have subwoofers that go no lower than 100Hz - make it boom a bit and it sounds like bass - until you hear the real thing, that is. You really do need to think some more about that subwoofer, you know ;-) See above - if it were not for the plethora of organ music I have stacked here, waiting for serious attention, I wouldn't entertain the idea for a moment. I have been fighting *too much bass* in my very small room for a while now, but any time I need my trousers flapped I'd only have to drag my Paladins the length of the house.... |
What's your view of speaker crossovers?
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message ... In article , Keith G wrote: "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message ... In article , Keith G wrote: Well, those umpteen million single cone drivers in TVs and radios are anything but FR - they pretty much universally have no bass and no treble. Ah, but they *can* have - ask yer mate Dr Bose or any 'horn' cabinet builder....!! ;-) Which is why both these produce incredibly 'coloured' sound. Ah. Those flowery expressions again. Wish I knew what they meant - or were intended to mean. What colour did you have in mind? Puce? Cerise? Eau De Nil...?? Burnt Umber....?? Colouration of sound is a term that has been in use by pros ever since I started in the industry - and that's a long long time ago. Think of a PA system just before the point of howlround - that's colouration. Or the same with vinyl being played on certain turntables at high level. In other words an external influence on a sound. There now. That's an explanation. How about one for 'speed' and 'immediacy' ;-) No thanks, I'll pass - the one for 'coloured' wasn't too hot.... |
What's your view of speaker crossovers?
"Andy Evans" wrote in message oups.com... Let's put this 'frequency extremes' thing to bed once and for all - there is no shortage of high frequency with just about all the drivers I have used/considered The BBC traditionally only required sound flat to 13Khz. Being in my 50s, I consider that quite enough. I don't think it's the extension that matters but the delicacy and faithfullness of timbre. I don't worry about the 'figures' Andy - as I've just said to Don, it's the sound (*only*) that counts. It's not what 'horns' may (or may not) do well, it's that once you are used to them, going back to ordinary speakers is such a depressing experience..... |
What's your view of speaker crossovers?
In article ,
Keith G wrote: Read the numbers: Lowther PM6C (30 - 20k) Lowther EX3 (30 - 22k) Fostex FE103E (fs - 22k) Visaton B200 (fu - 18k) Visaton FRS8-8 (80 - 20k) None of the drivers I currently use quote a top end anything like as low as 10k. Consequently, I take all these 'readings/measurements' and various other figures with a pinch of salt - it what they *sound* like (overall) to me that counts... Those numbers mean nothing without how they're derived. -- *No I haven't stolen it , I'm just a **** driver* Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
What's your view of speaker crossovers?
In article ,
Keith G wrote: o thanks, I'll pass - the one for 'coloured' wasn't too hot.... So as a self professed vinyl freak you've never heard the effect of feedback? -- *Horn broken. - Watch for finger. Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
What's your view of speaker crossovers?
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message ... In article , Keith G wrote: Read the numbers: Lowther PM6C (30 - 20k) Lowther EX3 (30 - 22k) Fostex FE103E (fs - 22k) Visaton B200 (fu - 18k) Visaton FRS8-8 (80 - 20k) None of the drivers I currently use quote a top end anything like as low as 10k. Consequently, I take all these 'readings/measurements' and various other figures with a pinch of salt - it what they *sound* like (overall) to me that counts... Those numbers mean nothing without how they're derived. Frankly, the numbers don't mean very much at all in the real world, other than to a designer or manufacturer - for example, the frequency range of a full orchestra is only about 40-14k and the *dink dink* 'Top C' on a piano is only about 4096 Hz with only weak (inaudible for most purposes) harmonics extending beyond 10 kHz.... (Kinda make waving the *numbers* about a bit of an exercise in pointlessness, doesn't it...??? :-) |
What's your view of speaker crossovers?
On Sun, 19 Nov 2006 23:11:32 -0000, "Keith G"
wrote: "Don Pearce" wrote in message ... On Sun, 19 Nov 2006 13:49:24 -0000, "Keith G" wrote: "Don Pearce" wrote in message . .. On Sun, 19 Nov 2006 12:56:28 -0000, "Keith G" wrote: You should also know that the full-range driver is in fact a myth. They are all dual cone devices with some sort of mechanical crossover Hi Don - yes, the majority are as above, but I'm talking single cone here. I would also disagree with Don's statement, especially if you take the umpteen million single cone/FR drivers that are used worldwide in radios, TVs, cars &c. - I certainly have single cone Visaton drivers on the go here myself... Well, those umpteen million single cone drivers in TVs and radios are anything but FR - they pretty much universally have no bass and no treble. Ah, but they *can* have - ask yer mate Dr Bose or any 'horn' cabinet builder....!! ;-) No, they can't. Dr. Bose's reputation goes before him as a marketeer, but his speakers are universally derided among the cognoscenti (and they do sound genuinely horrible). And of course horns make no difference to treble, and can only increase bass down to the wavelength limit of the horn's dimensions - I've never come across one with the twenty feet or so you would need to get true bass out of them, although I have seen pictures of builds by the certifiable. I'm wary of terms like 'true bass' given that, at best, 'hifi' is a *depiction* of 'real sound' - but, surely it doesn't need to be repeated that nobody in his right mind would seek 'true bass' from horns or bookshelf speakers....??? It does sound a lot nicer, though. And it certainly doesn't sound like "a lot of bass". And why do you think that nobody in his right mind would seek true bass from *any* speaker? It is an entirely reasonable thing to seek. Which Visatons do you have again? I've just looked at their web site, and everything I can find has a separate treble unit of one sort or another in the middle of the bass cone. FRS8s in the Needles and B200s back in their boxes.... http://www.impactaudio.co.uk/speaker...b6ddb0ba26b286 Let's put this 'frequency extremes' thing to bed once and for all - there is no shortage of high frequency with just about all the drivers I have used/considered and which quote a top end of 18K or better and up to 30K in some instances. Bass is no worse than 'ordinary' speakers and is dependent on cabinet/room science, as you know better than I..... Didn't we measure your speakers and find them rolling off severely above 10kHz? Read the numbers: Lowther PM6C (30 - 20k) Lowther EX3 (30 - 22k) Fostex FE103E (fs - 22k) Visaton B200 (fu - 18k) Visaton FRS8-8 (80 - 20k) None of the drivers I currently use quote a top end anything like as low as 10k. Consequently, I take all these 'readings/measurements' and various other figures with a pinch of salt - it what they *sound* like (overall) to me that counts... I've read the numbers - and like you, I'm unimpressed by them. As you say, what they sound like matters much more and for me a real, dedicated tweeter produces a much cleaner, pleasanter sound that a single FR unit. As for bass, we also found that there was nothing below about 60Hz - which makes total sense for the dimensions you have. I have a tiny pair of bookshelves in front f me (KEF Cresta 10) which do at least as well, probably rather better. Top end of course - no comparison. You are forgetting that I've had various examples of the following makes of speakers he KEF Tannoy Wharfedale Quad Dynaudio Ruark JM-Labs B&W Jamo (Concert 8s) Rogers plus probably others I can't recall...?? Yup, some good names there. See again: http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/LS35a.JPG for an example of a speaker with 'no frequency extremes' which would appear to benefit from the use of a subwoofer in *no different way* to many (maybe most) FR designs - *if* you need yer trousers flapped...!! The LS35a was designed for a purpose, and it fitted that very well. It was for monitoring BBC programme material. Extremes of bass and treble formed no part of the BBC output, so didn't need monitoring. Sure people adopted them for home listening, at which point the shortcomings started revealing themselves, so subwoofers got added. I've not had anything like as much exposure to subs - all I can say is I've never yet had one here that I didn't switch off after a few minutes... Nor had I until I bit the bullet and built my own. Now I really can't tell it is on until I turn it off IYSWIM. One visitor here, on hearing my Pinkies... http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/busc.../buschorns.htm "Whoah! They've got more bass than my AEs...!!" (The pinkies have 4" FR drivers and the AEs are/were 3-way floorstanding speakers with 165mm bass units - EVO 3s??) Yup, and we both know what that is all about. It is why those really cheap home cinema kits can have subwoofers that go no lower than 100Hz - make it boom a bit and it sounds like bass - until you hear the real thing, that is. You really do need to think some more about that subwoofer, you know ;-) See above - if it were not for the plethora of organ music I have stacked here, waiting for serious attention, I wouldn't entertain the idea for a moment. I have been fighting *too much bass* in my very small room for a while now, but any time I need my trousers flapped I'd only have to drag my Paladins the length of the house.... You don't get "too much bass" with a good sub. The system may even sound a little lighter in bass, because you have the opportunity to tune out the upper-bass hump that is currently propping up the illusion of bass. d -- Pearce Consulting http://www.pearce.uk.com |
What's your view of speaker crossovers?
In article ,
Keith G wrote: Frankly, the numbers don't mean very much at all in the real world, other than to a designer or manufacturer - for example, the frequency range of a full orchestra is only about 40-14k and the *dink dink* 'Top C' on a piano is only about 4096 Hz with only weak (inaudible for most purposes) harmonics extending beyond 10 kHz.... If the harmonics were inaudible it would sound like a sine wave. So nothing like a piano at all. I'm amazed at you. You go on and on about the subtle differences you claim to hear then come up with rubbish like this... -- *The severity of the itch is proportional to the reach * Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
What's your view of speaker crossovers?
"Don Pearce" wrote in message ... On Sun, 19 Nov 2006 23:11:32 -0000, "Keith G" wrote: "Don Pearce" wrote in message .. . On Sun, 19 Nov 2006 13:49:24 -0000, "Keith G" wrote: "Don Pearce" wrote in message .. . On Sun, 19 Nov 2006 12:56:28 -0000, "Keith G" wrote: You should also know that the full-range driver is in fact a myth. They are all dual cone devices with some sort of mechanical crossover Hi Don - yes, the majority are as above, but I'm talking single cone here. I would also disagree with Don's statement, especially if you take the umpteen million single cone/FR drivers that are used worldwide in radios, TVs, cars &c. - I certainly have single cone Visaton drivers on the go here myself... Well, those umpteen million single cone drivers in TVs and radios are anything but FR - they pretty much universally have no bass and no treble. Ah, but they *can* have - ask yer mate Dr Bose or any 'horn' cabinet builder....!! ;-) No, they can't. Dr. Bose's reputation goes before him as a marketeer, but his speakers are universally derided among the cognoscenti (and they do sound genuinely horrible). And of course horns make no difference to treble, and can only increase bass down to the wavelength limit of the horn's dimensions - I've never come across one with the twenty feet or so you would need to get true bass out of them, although I have seen pictures of builds by the certifiable. I'm wary of terms like 'true bass' given that, at best, 'hifi' is a *depiction* of 'real sound' - but, surely it doesn't need to be repeated that nobody in his right mind would seek 'true bass' from horns or bookshelf speakers....??? It does sound a lot nicer, though. And it certainly doesn't sound like "a lot of bass". And why do you think that nobody in his right mind would seek true bass from *any* speaker? It is an entirely reasonable thing to seek. No, try it this way round - why would people seeking 'true bass' from a speaker choose the wrong tool for the job...?? Which Visatons do you have again? I've just looked at their web site, and everything I can find has a separate treble unit of one sort or another in the middle of the bass cone. FRS8s in the Needles and B200s back in their boxes.... http://www.impactaudio.co.uk/speaker...b6ddb0ba26b286 Let's put this 'frequency extremes' thing to bed once and for all - there is no shortage of high frequency with just about all the drivers I have used/considered and which quote a top end of 18K or better and up to 30K in some instances. Bass is no worse than 'ordinary' speakers and is dependent on cabinet/room science, as you know better than I..... Didn't we measure your speakers and find them rolling off severely above 10kHz? Read the numbers: Lowther PM6C (30 - 20k) Lowther EX3 (30 - 22k) Fostex FE103E (fs - 22k) Visaton B200 (fu - 18k) Visaton FRS8-8 (80 - 20k) None of the drivers I currently use quote a top end anything like as low as 10k. Consequently, I take all these 'readings/measurements' and various other figures with a pinch of salt - it what they *sound* like (overall) to me that counts... I've read the numbers - and like you, I'm unimpressed by them. As you say, what they sound like matters much more and for me a real, dedicated tweeter produces a much cleaner, pleasanter sound that a single FR unit. OK, just for you ( I know how much you like them) I've recorded the track that immediately springs to mind for 'isolated' treble. It has been posted before but I think you will find it is better miked now: http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/mic.JPG - than it was before, on the poor little lapel mic! There's a lot less 'room' in the equation (almost none) which, of course, means the bass is less than I get to hear for real as my bass comes off the walls, but there is at least some indication of it. See below for the relevance.... http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/Track10.mp3 I do not ordinarily like to hear 'treble' or 'bass', I like a sound which Swim describes as *balanced* - that is 'cohesive' in audio terms, I believe...?? The only exception to that is a 'proper organ' when I like to *feel* the bass and, as I have said 28,000 times now, I don't expect to get that from horns the size I have in the room the size mine is. (Later on, if I get time, I'm going to hook up to the Ruarks and 'revisit' a couple of my organ discs!!) In fact, as I have said before, I quickly accomodate the various sounds from my system and various radios (car/bathroom/garage) very quickly and tend not to be listening to the kit. Best example of this is out in my garage where I frequently enjoy R3 of an afternoon from a decent little Roberts radio - I hear the music only and never give a thought to the radio itself..!! As for bass, we also found that there was nothing below about 60Hz - which makes total sense for the dimensions you have. I have a tiny pair of bookshelves in front f me (KEF Cresta 10) which do at least as well, probably rather better. Top end of course - no comparison. You are forgetting that I've had various examples of the following makes of speakers he KEF Tannoy Wharfedale Quad Dynaudio Ruark JM-Labs B&W Jamo (Concert 8s) Rogers plus probably others I can't recall...?? Yup, some good names there. Yes, all the same but different with skightly different strengths and weaknesses - all of which I could live with if I had to, all of which I have rejected... See again: http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/LS35a.JPG for an example of a speaker with 'no frequency extremes' which would appear to benefit from the use of a subwoofer in *no different way* to many (maybe most) FR designs - *if* you need yer trousers flapped...!! The LS35a was designed for a purpose, and it fitted that very well. It was for monitoring BBC programme material. Extremes of bass and treble formed no part of the BBC output, so didn't need monitoring. Sure people adopted them for home listening, at which point the shortcomings started revealing themselves, so subwoofers got added. I've not had anything like as much exposure to subs - all I can say is I've never yet had one here that I didn't switch off after a few minutes... Nor had I until I bit the bullet and built my own. Now I really can't tell it is on until I turn it off IYSWIM. You'll get away with that - if I had posted it, I'd damn soon have a couple of hot little faces telling me that it's probably 'builders's blindness' or somesuch.... One visitor here, on hearing my Pinkies... http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/busc.../buschorns.htm "Whoah! They've got more bass than my AEs...!!" (The pinkies have 4" FR drivers and the AEs are/were 3-way floorstanding speakers with 165mm bass units - EVO 3s??) Yup, and we both know what that is all about. It is why those really cheap home cinema kits can have subwoofers that go no lower than 100Hz - make it boom a bit and it sounds like bass - until you hear the real thing, that is. You really do need to think some more about that subwoofer, you know ;-) See above - if it were not for the plethora of organ music I have stacked here, waiting for serious attention, I wouldn't entertain the idea for a moment. I have been fighting *too much bass* in my very small room for a while now, but any time I need my trousers flapped I'd only have to drag my Paladins the length of the house.... You don't get "too much bass" with a good sub. Yes, I *do* know that and obviously tried the various subs here at 'inaudible' levels.... The system may even sound a little lighter in bass, because you have the opportunity to tune out the upper-bass hump that is currently propping up the illusion of bass. OK, here's one for you and for 'someone else' to throw rocks at: Last week, quite out of the blue, I bumped into an old friend I hadn't seen for about TWENTY years!! And, yes, he lives only a couple of miles from here, which would have been a tragedy (as we have been here ourselves for getting for 10 years) *if* we had a lot more in common than we appear now to do!! (??) (I'm getting a little too old for ****-ups and skirt-chasing now!! ;-) Naturally, he got a demo of my kit (for at least 20 seconds - no interest in it whatsoever) of the track posted above when I got the standard 'Woah, that's nice and clear!' immediate reaction and then 'Here's comes a bit of 'bottom end!' a few moments later. Then switch off and no further reference to it. It's people's immediate reactions that tell me what I want to know - by the time it's got to mention of terms like the 'upper mid' and all that old ******** I stop taking note. Strangers and indifferent types are more use than 'fellow enthusiasts' in this respect... Indicate when you have got/heard that track and I'll post it again recorded from my Ruarks a little later on, for comparison.... |
What's your view of speaker crossovers?
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message ... In article , Keith G wrote: Frankly, the numbers don't mean very much at all in the real world, other than to a designer or manufacturer - for example, the frequency range of a full orchestra is only about 40-14k and the *dink dink* 'Top C' on a piano is only about 4096 Hz with only weak (inaudible for most purposes) harmonics extending beyond 10 kHz.... If the harmonics were inaudible it would sound like a sine wave. So nothing like a piano at all. I'm amazed at you. You go on and on about the subtle differences you claim to hear then come up with rubbish like this... Plowie, you really got to stop *making things up* - it does you no credit whatsoever! I have never posted that I can hear subtle differences - quite the reverse (as ****ing usual), in fact I have only just this moment replied to Don to effectively say I accomodate differences almost too quickly to make other than 'night and day' comparisons between subtle changes in kit. It's *why* I ask the milkman for his opinion.... ....except that we don't have a milkman... As the the utter ******** regarding the mention of Top C on a piano - do you think I *invented* the phrase 'inaudible for most purposes'...?? Or, to put it your way: So you don't know that progressively higher orders of harmonics become increasingly inaudible...?? Now stop clutching at straws and go see my reply to Don - lots for you to get your knife into there.... |
What's your view of speaker crossovers?
"Keith G" wrote Indicate when you have got/heard that track and I'll post it again recorded from my Ruarks a little later on, for comparison.... Also, what do you reckon to this little bugger: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...0656&rd=1&rd=1 - that's about 200 quid less than normal retail and half the price of a Russian Nevaton equivalent (which are unobtainable anyway)....?? One or two good reviews on the Net from people who I suspect wouldn't *dare* to back a crock in public (independent Yank recording studios, mostly), here and there...?? |
What's your view of speaker crossovers?
On Mon, 20 Nov 2006 10:04:04 -0000, "Keith G"
wrote: I'm wary of terms like 'true bass' given that, at best, 'hifi' is a *depiction* of 'real sound' - but, surely it doesn't need to be repeated that nobody in his right mind would seek 'true bass' from horns or bookshelf speakers....??? It does sound a lot nicer, though. And it certainly doesn't sound like "a lot of bass". And why do you think that nobody in his right mind would seek true bass from *any* speaker? It is an entirely reasonable thing to seek. No, try it this way round - why would people seeking 'true bass' from a speaker choose the wrong tool for the job...?? That I can see. I do want true bass though - I'm different, I suppose. OK, just for you ( I know how much you like them) I've recorded the track that immediately springs to mind for 'isolated' treble. It has been posted before but I think you will find it is better miked now: http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/mic.JPG - than it was before, on the poor little lapel mic! There's a lot less 'room' in the equation (almost none) which, of course, means the bass is less than I get to hear for real as my bass comes off the walls, but there is at least some indication of it. See below for the relevance.... http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/Track10.mp3 This is really hard to judge, because the track is entirely synthetic - I have no internal sound picture to compare it with. It does seem to me though that the bottom end of the bass just isn't there. I do not ordinarily like to hear 'treble' or 'bass', I like a sound which Swim describes as *balanced* - that is 'cohesive' in audio terms, I believe...?? The only exception to that is a 'proper organ' when I like to *feel* the bass and, as I have said 28,000 times now, I don't expect to get that from horns the size I have in the room the size mine is. (Later on, if I get time, I'm going to hook up to the Ruarks and 'revisit' a couple of my organ discs!!) Balance is everything - you should be unaware of all parts of the spectrum. If you are noticing treble or bass, they are simply wrong. That is all part of my advice to people buying speakers - if they make you go "wow", just walk on by - they are crap. In fact, as I have said before, I quickly accomodate the various sounds from my system and various radios (car/bathroom/garage) very quickly and tend not to be listening to the kit. Best example of this is out in my garage where I frequently enjoy R3 of an afternoon from a decent little Roberts radio - I hear the music only and never give a thought to the radio itself..!! I have a couple of Roberts of my own for exactly those purposes, and they are great. But if I am sitting down of an evening to actually listen to some music, they simply don't do the job. KEF Tannoy Wharfedale Quad Dynaudio Ruark JM-Labs B&W Jamo (Concert 8s) Rogers plus probably others I can't recall...?? Yup, some good names there. Yes, all the same but different with skightly different strengths and weaknesses - all of which I could live with if I had to, all of which I have rejected... Well, from my point of view it is a shame you didn't persevere. You'll get away with that - if I had posted it, I'd damn soon have a couple of hot little faces telling me that it's probably 'builders's blindness' or somesuch.... I know all too well about builder's blindness. But there is slightly more to it than that. I built a design that simply isn't available to the manufacturer, and guarantees a smooth response with no honking humps. OK, here's one for you and for 'someone else' to throw rocks at: Last week, quite out of the blue, I bumped into an old friend I hadn't seen for about TWENTY years!! And, yes, he lives only a couple of miles from here, which would have been a tragedy (as we have been here ourselves for getting for 10 years) *if* we had a lot more in common than we appear now to do!! (??) (I'm getting a little too old for ****-ups and skirt-chasing now!! ;-) Naturally, he got a demo of my kit (for at least 20 seconds - no interest in it whatsoever) of the track posted above when I got the standard 'Woah, that's nice and clear!' immediate reaction and then 'Here's comes a bit of 'bottom end!' a few moments later. Then switch off and no further reference to it. That is exactly the response I would expect. The initial reaction to any system with an exaggeration of any particular part of the frequency range is fairly predictable. That is well known to recording engineers who use the fact to inject the right mood into their product. Indicate when you have got/heard that track and I'll post it again recorded from my Ruarks a little later on, for comparison.... Bring 'em on! d -- Pearce Consulting http://www.pearce.uk.com |
What's your view of speaker crossovers?
On Mon, 20 Nov 2006 10:22:47 -0000, "Keith G"
wrote: "Keith G" wrote Indicate when you have got/heard that track and I'll post it again recorded from my Ruarks a little later on, for comparison.... Also, what do you reckon to this little bugger: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...0656&rd=1&rd=1 - that's about 200 quid less than normal retail and half the price of a Russian Nevaton equivalent (which are unobtainable anyway)....?? One or two good reviews on the Net from people who I suspect wouldn't *dare* to back a crock in public (independent Yank recording studios, mostly), here and there...?? I reckon you now have your fair share of cardioids - and you have much greater flexibility when you have them in separate bodies. I'd leave this monster where it is. d -- Pearce Consulting http://www.pearce.uk.com |
What's your view of speaker crossovers?
In article ,
Keith G wrote: As the the utter ******** regarding the mention of Top C on a piano - do you think I *invented* the phrase 'inaudible for most purposes'...?? Doesn't matter whether you did or not - quoting it would suggest you believe it. Or, to put it your way: So you don't know that progressively higher orders of harmonics become increasingly inaudible...?? Do you understand what a sine wave is? If the harmonics from a musical instrument were unimportant then top C from a piano would sound exactly the same as from a violin. Of course perhaps they do on your setup... -- *Middle age is when it takes longer to rest than to get tired. Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
What's your view of speaker crossovers?
"Don Pearce" wrote in message ... On Mon, 20 Nov 2006 10:22:47 -0000, "Keith G" wrote: "Keith G" wrote Indicate when you have got/heard that track and I'll post it again recorded from my Ruarks a little later on, for comparison.... Also, what do you reckon to this little bugger: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...0656&rd=1&rd=1 - that's about 200 quid less than normal retail and half the price of a Russian Nevaton equivalent (which are unobtainable anyway)....?? One or two good reviews on the Net from people who I suspect wouldn't *dare* to back a crock in public (independent Yank recording studios, mostly), here and there...?? I reckon you now have your fair share of cardioids - and you have much greater flexibility when you have them in separate bodies. I'd leave this monster where it is. I wasn't thinking for use as a simple cardoid - it's multi-pattern/stereo and appears to be quite good for various techniques like M/S and X/Y (Stereosonic/Blumlein??): http://www.studioprojectsusa.com/pdf...CTS%20LSD2.pdf http://www.studioprojectsusa.com/lsd2.html (No funds atm in any case.....) OK, I'll set up on the Ruarks now - although a quick burst of the same track just now sounded like ****, I thought.... While you're waiting, have a pop at this - play it twice, the joke's OK but the laughter just cracks me up!! :-) http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show...e-cricket1.mp3 (Kerry O'Keefe :-) |
What's your view of speaker crossovers?
On Mon, 20 Nov 2006 11:23:13 -0000, "Keith G"
wrote: "Don Pearce" wrote in message ... On Mon, 20 Nov 2006 10:22:47 -0000, "Keith G" wrote: "Keith G" wrote Indicate when you have got/heard that track and I'll post it again recorded from my Ruarks a little later on, for comparison.... Also, what do you reckon to this little bugger: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...0656&rd=1&rd=1 - that's about 200 quid less than normal retail and half the price of a Russian Nevaton equivalent (which are unobtainable anyway)....?? One or two good reviews on the Net from people who I suspect wouldn't *dare* to back a crock in public (independent Yank recording studios, mostly), here and there...?? I reckon you now have your fair share of cardioids - and you have much greater flexibility when you have them in separate bodies. I'd leave this monster where it is. I wasn't thinking for use as a simple cardoid - it's multi-pattern/stereo and appears to be quite good for various techniques like M/S and X/Y (Stereosonic/Blumlein??): http://www.studioprojectsusa.com/pdf...CTS%20LSD2.pdf http://www.studioprojectsusa.com/lsd2.html (No funds atm in any case.....) Well, I would still get another pair of mics - omni probably. You can still do all the miking techniques with what you have. Also this one is a bit noisy. The frog is saved - thank you! d -- Pearce Consulting http://www.pearce.uk.com |
What's your view of speaker crossovers?
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message ... In article , Keith G wrote: As the the utter ******** regarding the mention of Top C on a piano - do you think I *invented* the phrase 'inaudible for most purposes'...?? Doesn't matter whether you did or not - quoting it would suggest you believe it. Or, to put it your way: So you don't know that progressively higher orders of harmonics become increasingly inaudible...?? Do you understand what a sine wave is? If the harmonics from a musical instrument were unimportant then top C from a piano would sound exactly the same as from a violin. Of course perhaps they do on your setup... Didn't take you long, did it...?? :-) |
What's your view of speaker crossovers?
"Don Pearce" wrote in message ... On Mon, 20 Nov 2006 11:23:13 -0000, "Keith G" wrote: "Don Pearce" wrote in message .. . On Mon, 20 Nov 2006 10:22:47 -0000, "Keith G" wrote: "Keith G" wrote Indicate when you have got/heard that track and I'll post it again recorded from my Ruarks a little later on, for comparison.... Also, what do you reckon to this little bugger: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...0656&rd=1&rd=1 - that's about 200 quid less than normal retail and half the price of a Russian Nevaton equivalent (which are unobtainable anyway)....?? One or two good reviews on the Net from people who I suspect wouldn't *dare* to back a crock in public (independent Yank recording studios, mostly), here and there...?? I reckon you now have your fair share of cardioids - and you have much greater flexibility when you have them in separate bodies. I'd leave this monster where it is. I wasn't thinking for use as a simple cardoid - it's multi-pattern/stereo and appears to be quite good for various techniques like M/S and X/Y (Stereosonic/Blumlein??): http://www.studioprojectsusa.com/pdf...CTS%20LSD2.pdf http://www.studioprojectsusa.com/lsd2.html (No funds atm in any case.....) Well, I would still get another pair of mics - omni probably. You can still do all the miking techniques with what you have. Also this one is a bit noisy. OK. Ignore me - I'm only musing out loud..... |
What's your view of speaker crossovers?
"Don Pearce" wrote in message ... On Mon, 20 Nov 2006 10:04:04 -0000, "Keith G" wrote: OK, here's one for you and for 'someone else' to throw rocks at: Last week, quite out of the blue, I bumped into an old friend I hadn't seen for about TWENTY years!! And, yes, he lives only a couple of miles from here, which would have been a tragedy (as we have been here ourselves for getting for 10 years) *if* we had a lot more in common than we appear now to do!! (??) (I'm getting a little too old for ****-ups and skirt-chasing now!! ;-) Naturally, he got a demo of my kit (for at least 20 seconds - no interest in it whatsoever) of the track posted above when I got the standard 'Woah, that's nice and clear!' immediate reaction and then 'Here's comes a bit of 'bottom end!' a few moments later. Then switch off and no further reference to it. That is exactly the response I would expect. The initial reaction to any system with an exaggeration of any particular part of the frequency range is fairly predictable. That is well known to recording engineers who use the fact to inject the right mood into their product. No.... The truth is the speakers are so *clear and direct* it's quite breathtaking. They are 'stunning' in a totally *non spectacular* way - ie they are so comfortable to listen to.... Indicate when you have got/heard that track and I'll post it again recorded from my Ruarks a little later on, for comparison.... Bring 'em on! OK, here we go - this is the setup: http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show...Setup%2001.JPG http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show...Setup%2002.JPG and here is the track: http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show...,%20SE1As).mp3 ....and here's the Lowther track again for direct comparison (if anyone else is interested): http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/Track10.mp3 Now, before you tell me there's no bass on the Ruark track either - when I started it off I went over to the back door for a fag (as I do) and rested my elbow on the (patio door) pull handle. At about 1 minute in, the fekking door started thrumming and I was getting the bass through my elbow as well as hearing it!! (The Paladins quote 38 Hz at the bottom end...) As it's ****ing with rain here (on and off) I don't feel too guilty about this sort of dicking around - while I'm set up on the Ruarks what else would you rather hear? Gimme a slot and I'll see what I've got that best fits it! (Sorry if it's a bit sad, but I enjoy it and it's good practice for me!! ;-) Now, if nothing else, the recordings *look* a lot better these days, don't they?? :-) |
What's your view of speaker crossovers?
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in
message In article , Keith G wrote: Frankly, the numbers don't mean very much at all in the real world, other than to a designer or manufacturer - for example, the frequency range of a full orchestra is only about 40-14k and the *dink dink* 'Top C' on a piano is only about 4096 Hz with only weak (inaudible for most purposes) harmonics extending beyond 10 kHz.... If the harmonics were inaudible it would sound like a sine wave. So nothing like a piano at all. I'm amazed at you. You go on and on about the subtle differences you claim to hear then come up with rubbish like this... More to the point, is the lack of quality of reproduction that we get at high frequencies by single-way drivers. There are hard physical laws that say you can't have deep bass and high efficiency and small size at the same time. If you add good dynamic range, then things get that much more difficult. In a similar fashion, you can't have deep bass, extended treble, smooth response, and broad dispersion at the same time. I still remember doing some frequency response measurements on a "full range" JBL 15" driver in engineerings school in the middlee 1960s. Believe it or not, it had response at 13 KHz. But only on-axis. And only after a number of audible dips and peaks at lower frequencies. |
What's your view of speaker crossovers?
"Don Pearce" wrote in message
On Mon, 20 Nov 2006 10:22:47 -0000, "Keith G" wrote: Also, what do you reckon to this little bugger: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...0656&rd=1&rd=1 Seems to be a convenient package. It looks neat. Self-noise is actually high enough to be of concern. For half the price I'd have a pair of Rhode NT1A, which I indeed already have. Quieter, and probably smoother. I have a mount for coincident micing that cost about $15. - that's about 200 quid less than normal retail and half the price of a Russian Nevaton equivalent (which are unobtainable anyway)....?? One or two good reviews on the Net from people who I suspect wouldn't *dare* to back a crock in public (independent Yank recording studios, mostly), here and there...?? I reckon you now have your fair share of cardioids - and you have much greater flexibility when you have them in separate bodies. I'd leave this monster where it is. |
| All times are GMT. The time now is 02:24 AM. |
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
SEO by vBSEO 3.0.0
Copyright ©2004-2006 AudioBanter.co.uk