Game, SET and match....
 

In article ,
Keith G wrote:
Well recorded stereo in a good room can give sounds from in front and
behind the speakers. It's not just left and right.


Stoppit, Plowie....

As I said we don't talk the same language. ;-)


But should tell you the acoustic of the venue it was recorded in -
which
takes you out of 'the room'.


Sure - which happens much better (oops) for me with SET/horns than it
does with the SS/'normal' speaker setups, but I'm not sure I'm really
bothered about *venues* as such unless it's a bit of church organ,
possibly....

Oh dear. Most of the best classical recordings involve choosing the venue
carefully for its acoustics. Although you can add reverb it's never as
good as the real thing. And for this sort of music performers play better
in a good acoustic.

If you've not been impressed by different acoustics it sounds like your
horns are masking those - as well as much else. Which really is what I'd
expect.
I do have some experience of horns having had Tannoy Autographs many years
ago. Their only advantage over other large Tannoys with the same driver
was the higher sensitivity. The disadvantages manifold. The main ones
being colouration and poor imaging. My guess is they were designed before
stereo.

--
*I went to school to become a wit, only got halfway through.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Building my own valve amp
 

Don Pearce wrote:
On Tue, 06 Nov 2007 00:35:21 -0000, Andy Evans
wrote:


The question really boils down to this; do you want to listen to
something that resembles what the artist intended, or the output of an
effects box?

There absolutely has to be a missing piece to this jigsaw. We have
perfectly sane and intelligent people at odds with each other - on
both sides are music lovers and hi-fi enthusiats but it's like a
Moslem talking to a Catholic.

I'm pretty sure I know what the missing piece is. In my opinion
different brains prioritise different key features. If certain key
features are reproduced better, even is other aspects are reproduced
worse, the listening preference will go to the key feature. Such a key
feature may be accurate tone to a piano, feeling in a voice, slam in
the bass - various things. These may be more important than frequency
response. The ear can adapt to some things easily, and a skewed
frequency response is likely to be one, since we don't mind our
kitchen radios. The ear may not adapt so easily to other aspects, and
one of those that disturbs a few musicians I know is a sharpness/
discord in the high frequencies. Others dislike bland featureless
reproduction.

Whatever it is, it's something to do with individual perception and
the differential priorities we make.



I'm sure you are right in this. My feeling is that I want to hear
straight past all the kit to the music - the equipment must efface
itself entirely.

Others want to hear what the amplifier is doing, and the speakers.

d


But this is the same thing over again Don, I know as Andy has said, that
your are "perfectly sane and intelligent" and I would like to hope the
same myself, but can you believe me when I say that when I listen to a
low distortion SS amplifier with low eficiency multi driver speakers,
all I hear IS the amplifier and speakers, so much so, it gets in the way
of hearing the music.

I know thats at odds to your view, and I have myself been wondering for
some time if there is actually some difference in the way we hear that
means the metrics used to measure systems, that are used and work for
you are different for some of us.

--
Nick

Building my own valve amp
 

On Tue, 06 Nov 2007 09:43:22 +0000, Nick Gorham
wrote:

Don Pearce wrote:
On Tue, 06 Nov 2007 00:35:21 -0000, Andy Evans
wrote:


The question really boils down to this; do you want to listen to
something that resembles what the artist intended, or the output of an
effects box?

There absolutely has to be a missing piece to this jigsaw. We have
perfectly sane and intelligent people at odds with each other - on
both sides are music lovers and hi-fi enthusiats but it's like a
Moslem talking to a Catholic.

I'm pretty sure I know what the missing piece is. In my opinion
different brains prioritise different key features. If certain key
features are reproduced better, even is other aspects are reproduced
worse, the listening preference will go to the key feature. Such a key
feature may be accurate tone to a piano, feeling in a voice, slam in
the bass - various things. These may be more important than frequency
response. The ear can adapt to some things easily, and a skewed
frequency response is likely to be one, since we don't mind our
kitchen radios. The ear may not adapt so easily to other aspects, and
one of those that disturbs a few musicians I know is a sharpness/
discord in the high frequencies. Others dislike bland featureless
reproduction.

Whatever it is, it's something to do with individual perception and
the differential priorities we make.



I'm sure you are right in this. My feeling is that I want to hear
straight past all the kit to the music - the equipment must efface
itself entirely.

Others want to hear what the amplifier is doing, and the speakers.

d


But this is the same thing over again Don, I know as Andy has said, that
your are "perfectly sane and intelligent" and I would like to hope the
same myself, but can you believe me when I say that when I listen to a
low distortion SS amplifier with low eficiency multi driver speakers,
all I hear IS the amplifier and speakers, so much so, it gets in the way
of hearing the music.

I will have to concede your point with the speakers, although they are
demonstrably less intrusive than any single FR driver and horn, but
not the amplifier. If you have a low distortion amplifier then you are
categorically NOT hearing it. You are obviously hearing the absence of
the SET distortions, but that is hardly equivalent.

I know thats at odds to your view, and I have myself been wondering for
some time if there is actually some difference in the way we hear that
means the metrics used to measure systems, that are used and work for
you are different for some of us.

No, I think it is simply a matter of preference.

Here's a question for you. Suppose some record label took all your
views on board, and produced records with wobbly eq and even order
harmonic distortion. Could you see yourself playing these records on
non-distorting, flat FR equipment - or would you still be listening to
it with SETs and horns?

d

--
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

Building my own valve amp
 

If you have a low distortion amplifier then you are categorically NOT
hearing it.

I'm with Keith and Nick here - I maintain you can hear it. As Keith
has very carefully said, and I'm sure Nick and I have said using
practically the same words, the "true" standout characteristic of
valves (and I would add DHTs in particular) that we users know and
love consists of something intrinsic in the music, not extrinsic. You
state "adding something" but we hear ss amps as "taking something
away" - usually described as vividness, inner clarity, life, that kind
of thing. We hear this inner clarity as part of the music itself, and
we believe that this vividness is present in live music. We believe
that ss amps subtly mask this and sound flat. Contrary to supposition,
valve users don't like "that warm sound" - on the contrary they try
and get rid of any warmth or tubbiness masking the inner clarity they
seek, and DHTs in particular seem to preserve the clarity without
adding the warmth.

I hope I've correctly represented Keith and Nick - I think so from
reading their posts.

Building my own valve amp
 

Whatever it is, it's something to do with individual perception and
the differential priorities we make.


You may be right - I wouldn't know. All I can say is that, having tried
20 million SS amps without real satisfaction, the minute I fired up a
valve amp I was hooked forever - immediately there was 'life' and
clarity, air, space, depth, detail, tone, timbre, realism, enchantment
and the fragrance of Attar Of Roses in the air...


And the signal source for this enlightenment was?...

--
Tony Sayer

Building my own valve amp
 

In article m, Andy
Evans scribeth thus
If you have a low distortion amplifier then you are categorically NOT
hearing it.

I'm with Keith and Nick here - I maintain you can hear it. As Keith
has very carefully said, and I'm sure Nick and I have said using
practically the same words, the "true" standout characteristic of
valves (and I would add DHTs in particular) that we users know and
love consists of something intrinsic in the music, not extrinsic. You
state "adding something" but we hear ss amps as "taking something
away" - usually described as vividness, inner clarity, life, that kind
of thing. We hear this inner clarity as part of the music itself, and
we believe that this vividness is present in live music. We believe
that ss amps subtly mask this and sound flat. Contrary to supposition,
valve users don't like "that warm sound" - on the contrary they try
and get rid of any warmth or tubbiness masking the inner clarity they
seek, and DHTs in particular seem to preserve the clarity without
adding the warmth.

I hope I've correctly represented Keith and Nick - I think so from
reading their posts.



I went to a concert the other night and some passages in that sounded
distorted!..FWIW...
--
Tony Sayer

Building my own valve amp
 

"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 06 Nov 2007 00:35:21 -0000, Andy Evans
wrote:

The question really boils down to this; do you want to listen to
something that resembles what the artist intended, or the output of an
effects box?

There absolutely has to be a missing piece to this jigsaw. We have
perfectly sane and intelligent people at odds with each other - on
both sides are music lovers and hi-fi enthusiats but it's like a
Moslem talking to a Catholic.

I'm pretty sure I know what the missing piece is. In my opinion
different brains prioritise different key features. If certain key
features are reproduced better, even is other aspects are reproduced
worse, the listening preference will go to the key feature. Such a key
feature may be accurate tone to a piano, feeling in a voice, slam in
the bass - various things. These may be more important than frequency
response. The ear can adapt to some things easily, and a skewed
frequency response is likely to be one, since we don't mind our
kitchen radios. The ear may not adapt so easily to other aspects, and
one of those that disturbs a few musicians I know is a sharpness/
discord in the high frequencies. Others dislike bland featureless
reproduction.

Whatever it is, it's something to do with individual perception and
the differential priorities we make.


I'm sure you are right in this. My feeling is that I want to hear
straight past all the kit to the music - the equipment must efface
itself entirely.

Others want to hear what the amplifier is doing, and the speakers.


No Don, you got that entirely wrong - the whole point of the 'horns' is
that they stand entirely disconnected from and seemingly independant of
the sound....

Building my own valve amp
 

On Tue, 06 Nov 2007 02:29:08 -0800, Andy Evans
wrote:

If you have a low distortion amplifier then you are categorically NOT
hearing it.

I'm with Keith and Nick here - I maintain you can hear it. As Keith
has very carefully said, and I'm sure Nick and I have said using
practically the same words, the "true" standout characteristic of
valves (and I would add DHTs in particular) that we users know and
love consists of something intrinsic in the music, not extrinsic. You
state "adding something" but we hear ss amps as "taking something
away" - usually described as vividness, inner clarity, life, that kind
of thing. We hear this inner clarity as part of the music itself, and
we believe that this vividness is present in live music. We believe
that ss amps subtly mask this and sound flat. Contrary to supposition,
valve users don't like "that warm sound" - on the contrary they try
and get rid of any warmth or tubbiness masking the inner clarity they
seek, and DHTs in particular seem to preserve the clarity without
adding the warmth.

I hope I've correctly represented Keith and Nick - I think so from
reading their posts.


To a man standing on a moving train, the world is apparently moving
past him, but that doesn't mean he can validly claim that to be so. It
is very clear from even a cursory examination of SET and SS amplifiers
that SET does things to the signal, and SS doesn't.

I'm afraid your relativistic stance doesn't survive examination.

Can you not simply accept that you like the way SETs and horns change
the sound? What is with this rather desperate attempt to claim it not
to be so? Just enjoy it.

d

--
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

Building my own valve amp
 

On Tue, 6 Nov 2007 10:36:09 -0000, "Keith G"
wrote:

Others want to hear what the amplifier is doing, and the speakers.


No Don, you got that entirely wrong - the whole point of the 'horns' is
that they stand entirely disconnected from and seemingly independant of
the sound....



See my latest reply to Andy. This is a relative thing, and you are
standing on the moving bit.

d

--
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

Building my own valve amp
 

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"Andy Evans" wrote in message
ups.com...
Perform a range of detailed and exhaustive measurements
on an amplifier

Could you give us an example of an "exhaustive measurement" which
measures EVERYTHING?

And could you follow that by explaining why, after carrying out such
an "exhaustive test" which by definition needs no further information,
you then need to go on and listen to the amplifier?



The only 'exhaustive test' that works for me is to run a bit of kit for
weeks and months in my own system, in my own room; anything less is
'lip-service' and pointless - is why I'm not particularly bothered to hear
kit before I get hold of it!

(Anything don't work out pretty soon gets moved on....)


In this (and possibly only this....) I agree with Keith, but I'm sure, for
totally different reasons. Modern SS electronics operate well below any
likely limit of perception for distortions, frequency response anomalies et.
al. Consequently, provided the facilities are what I need, listening won't
tell me anything that the spec won't. Loudspeakers are slightly different,
but in my view, only slightly. Modern loudspeakers can have remarkably flat
responses and low distortions that again, make listening fairly pointless.
Certainly the differences between loudspeakers are such that I can be happy
with any number of them sonically, what becomes more important is size,
looks, and of course, price. In the case of my current loudspeakers,
Meridian D5000, I bought these sight unseen as I was very familiar with
other Meridians, and took it on trust that these would be similar to the
others. I was not disappointed.

Consequently, in my view, listening is only important if the electronics and
loudspeakers deviate from the accepted norms of flatness of response, low
distortion etc. This would certainly apply to SET/Horns or some of the
current crop of "audiophile" loudspeakers, some of which have gross reponse
errors, but which still get good reviews. If I were interested in one of
these items, then prolonged listening and comparison with a known reference
would still be necessary, but fortunately, I'm not.

S.



--
http://audiopages.googlepages.com