Game, SET and match....
 

In article , Keith G
scribeth thus

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Keith G wrote:
I think you'll find that's more to do with the speakers than the
amp -
the one thing horns do is *remove the veil* at the possible cost of
colouration while 'normal' speakers do the reverse from what I can
see
(hear) of it....

I'd say the two are opposites. Colouration *is* the main part of the
'veil'.


Not in my book - I see (hear) colouration mostly as the 'quackiness'
that unfortunately manifests itself on the male voice at times (radio
presenters, usually)

Processing for you!..

but the *veil* on ordinary speakers as the lack of
the clarity and edge (that horns have in abundance which, of course,
many people don't like) which leads to a comparative loss of detail and
lack of space, depth and 'air'...

I think one thing that needs pointed out *yet again* is that most (if
not all) SET/horn/vinyl users have ready access to ordinary speakers and
amps and (usually) plenty of *digital music* (I have them all in *daily
use* here)

MP2 and 3 and 4 scourge of the earth;!...

- it's a bit like when you're out on a 'bike - you get
****ing idiot car drivers talking as though you have never driven a car,
let alone owned/bought about 150 of 'em and driven no end of others
also!!




--
Tony Sayer

Building my own valve amp
 

On Mon, 5 Nov 2007 08:19:06 +0200, "Iain Churches"
wrote:


"Trevor Wilson" wrote in message
...


**We're discussing REPRODUCTION systems, not CREATION systems. BIG
difference. SETs distort whatever was created.


You are conveniently overlooking the fact that most SET amplifiers fill a
room
with music at 1W, with sensitive speakers.

At that level, the THD is 0.1%.
This is inaudible.

Iain


That isn't the claim we are seeing. The claim is that it is not only
audible, but "better" than undistorted.

And of course sensitive speakers filling a room with music at 1W has
nothing to do with SETs.

d

--
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

Building my own valve amp
 

"Trevor Wilson" wrote in message
...

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"Trevor Wilson" wrote


a tidy up


**You are, of course, incorrect. That won't stop you from lying and
misrepresenting my position, nor my words in the future, however. You've
made it into something of an art form. You are a lying piece of ****.


Iain needs to gauge better how to play you without breaking the line....


Mixed metaphors here Keith. Not "fish and line" but "red rags and bulls"
Poor old Trev is the bull, and SET is the red rag:-) Even the mention of
it it has him snorting, foaming at the mouth and clawing at the ground in
desperation.

Iain


PS The text below, written on Usenet by Patrick Turner on 22nd
October 2007.

"It should be well known that our Trevor has a mental block about
single ended triode amplifiers, and its no use arguing with him.

I have given up years ago after several attempts and logic and reason.
I've based all my long detailed arguments on the technical facts about
hi-fi and the limits of tolerances for it.
And upon the basic workings of what can be achieved and what cannot with
SE amplifiers.

So I would advise ppl not to bother arguing with TW about this issue;
nobody is ever going to change his mind.

And its all been argued ad infinitum at least 4 times by different ppl
and myself and with all the same tired old BS exchanges. See the
archives, and you'll get my drift at least"

Building my own valve amp
 

"Trevor Wilson" wrote in message
...

"Iain Churches" wrote in message
i.fi...

"Trevor Wilson" wrote in message
...

"Nick Gorham" wrote in message
...
Trevor Wilson wrote:


What the OP needs to do is listen to those who are experienced with
real
*buildable* circuits and follow the advice he likes the sound of
best -
he's got to start somewhere and damn near every 'normal' PP amp on the
planet owes summat to the early Mullard designs (AFAIK) so why
struggle
against it??


**Why trust what people say? Some people are seriously deluded. How is
Max to know if the people he is speaking to know anything at all? MUCH
better for him to listen to a product, BEFORE plonking down the cash.


Because the OP asked about BUILDING a amplifier, given you find this
mythical dealer that lets you geard some commercial amps, what then,
ask
the maker for the winding schedule for their TX's

**How will he know what to build, unless he can listen to it? Valve amps
mostly sound different to each other. Their sound is largely
differentiated by the topolgy, the output transformers and the valves
used. Without a good listen to the amps, it is a total crap shoot. MUCH
better to listen to several amps and make a choice from those.



(Different with SETs of course, but I'd recommend a SET as a start amp
for a number of reasons!)


**SETs are for idiots.

"Why trust what people say? Some people are seriously deluded."

**Want me to explain to you why SET amps are for idiots? I'm quite happy
to explain in exquisite detail, that any technical person can
understand.
You'll need to explain it to Iain though. He's not too bright in things
technical.

Trevor. Some time ago, It became clear to me after reading
some of your posts, that Patrick Turner (acknowledged by
one and all to be a man of considerable expertise in things
thermionic) was correct when he wrote in a Usenet post
(I paraphrase) "There is nothing that TW can teach Iain
or probably anyone else here about valve/tube audio.
He is an SS audio salesman with little knowledge and
no practical experience in valve amp construction"

**You are, of course, incorrect. That won't stop you from lying and
misrepresenting my position, nor my words in the future, however. You've
made it into something of an art form. You are a lying piece of ****.

Trevor. It is impossible for you to discuss in a calm and rational
way, without recourse to invective. You are sounding more like
Pinky by the day:-)


Anyone can check the archive to find that my paragraph above is
sadly correct. Sadder still is the fact that since he made that
statement, you have confirmed Patrick's findings in any number of
tube audio related posts.


**No. I am advising him to LISTEN, before he plonks down a single cent.


Others have asked. How can he listen to it before he has built it????

Surely you are not naive enough to think that people do not listen
carefully to a selection of amplifiers before making their choice?

**Lots of people don't listen. Keith is one.

I will continue to challenge your lies. Do not think you can get away with
them. You won't.

Nothing to challenge. Anyone can check. .

A short while ago I was travelling in India. I spent an evening in
the company of a Jainist mystic/philosopher. He told me that he
believed that after death we each go to our own private hell.

So you can look forward to an eternity of Shostakovich Quartets
on SET amps with Lowthers, whioe the furnaces are fired with
ME amplifiers and HK cheapo CD players:-)

Iain

Building my own valve amp
 

"Iain Churches" wrote in message
i.fi...

"Trevor Wilson" wrote in message
...

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"Trevor Wilson" wrote


a tidy up


**You are, of course, incorrect. That won't stop you from lying and
misrepresenting my position, nor my words in the future, however.
You've
made it into something of an art form. You are a lying piece of
****.


Iain needs to gauge better how to play you without breaking the
line....


Mixed metaphors here Keith. Not "fish and line" but "red rags and
bulls"
Poor old Trev is the bull, and SET is the red rag:-) Even the mention
of
it it has him snorting, foaming at the mouth and clawing at the ground
in
desperation.


OK, couple of small 'pickies' - the metaphors are different but not
mixed as such and Trevor doesn't 'snort, foam and claw', he only whinges
and pontificates....

;-)



Iain


PS The text below, written on Usenet by Patrick Turner on 22nd
October 2007.

"It should be well known that our Trevor has a mental block about
single ended triode amplifiers, and its no use arguing with him.

I have given up years ago after several attempts and logic and reason.
I've based all my long detailed arguments on the technical facts about
hi-fi and the limits of tolerances for it.
And upon the basic workings of what can be achieved and what cannot
with
SE amplifiers.

So I would advise ppl not to bother arguing with TW about this issue;
nobody is ever going to change his mind.

And its all been argued ad infinitum at least 4 times by different ppl
and myself and with all the same tired old BS exchanges. See the
archives, and you'll get my drift at least"


Yep, there's nothing new about Trevor's *antiSET* prejudices, he
dismisses them on the grounds of a Treble Blind Test - ie. he was *even
there*...!! :-)

Muzak in hell was Building my own valve amp
 

On Nov 5, 3:27 pm, "Iain Churches" wrote (to
Trevor Wilson):

A short while ago I was travelling in India. I spent an evening in
the company of a Jainist mystic/philosopher. He told me that he
believed that after death we each go to our own private hell.

You're not "going maharishi" on us, are you, Iain? Keep sawing those
logs and it will be thirty years before you have to worry about the
disposition of your soul.

So you [Trevor Wilson] can look forward to an eternity of Shostakovich Quartets

While I will agree that an unalleviated repeat cycle of all the
Shostakovich String Quartets is a fitting punishment for incorrigible
silicon bores...

on SET amps with Lowthers,

....I think it would be unduly forgiving to permit such people SET and
Lowther. Let's not go soft on the punishments here.

whioe the furnaces are fired with
ME amplifiers and HK cheapo CD players:-)

LOL.

Iain

Andre Jute
I knows what I likes

Building my own valve amp
 

"Trevor Wilson" wrote in message
...

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"Trevor Wilson" wrote in message
...

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"Trevor Wilson" wrote


a tidy up


**You are, of course, incorrect. That won't stop you from lying and
misrepresenting my position, nor my words in the future, however.
You've made it into something of an art form. You are a lying piece of
****.


Iain needs to gauge better how to play you without breaking the
line....

**Not lying would be an excellent start. An ability he clearly lacks.


And you need to gauge better the company here - I don't think there's a
single regular here that bothers to post *lies*, Trevor...

(I though all that 'lying POS' claptrap had gone South with Pinky...??)


**Iain lied to and about Stuart too? Hardly surprising. Iain is incapable
of telling the truth.

Trevor. No cigar for English comprehension:-(

What Keith is saying is that the kind of invective you are now using
was Pinky's trademark, and disappeared (went South) when he did.

Iain

Building my own valve amp
 

"Iain Churches" wrote in message
i.fi...

"Trevor Wilson" wrote in message
...

"Iain Churches" wrote in message
i.fi...

"Trevor Wilson" wrote in
message
...

"Nick Gorham" wrote in message
...
Trevor Wilson wrote:


What the OP needs to do is listen to those who are experienced
with
real
*buildable* circuits and follow the advice he likes the sound of
best -
he's got to start somewhere and damn near every 'normal' PP amp
on the
planet owes summat to the early Mullard designs (AFAIK) so why
struggle
against it??


**Why trust what people say? Some people are seriously deluded.
How is
Max to know if the people he is speaking to know anything at all?
MUCH
better for him to listen to a product, BEFORE plonking down the
cash.


Because the OP asked about BUILDING a amplifier, given you find
this
mythical dealer that lets you geard some commercial amps, what
then,
ask
the maker for the winding schedule for their TX's

**How will he know what to build, unless he can listen to it? Valve
amps
mostly sound different to each other. Their sound is largely
differentiated by the topolgy, the output transformers and the
valves
used. Without a good listen to the amps, it is a total crap shoot.
MUCH
better to listen to several amps and make a choice from those.



(Different with SETs of course, but I'd recommend a SET as a
start amp
for a number of reasons!)


**SETs are for idiots.

"Why trust what people say? Some people are seriously deluded."

**Want me to explain to you why SET amps are for idiots? I'm quite
happy
to explain in exquisite detail, that any technical person can
understand.
You'll need to explain it to Iain though. He's not too bright in
things
technical.

Trevor. Some time ago, It became clear to me after reading
some of your posts, that Patrick Turner (acknowledged by
one and all to be a man of considerable expertise in things
thermionic) was correct when he wrote in a Usenet post
(I paraphrase) "There is nothing that TW can teach Iain
or probably anyone else here about valve/tube audio.
He is an SS audio salesman with little knowledge and
no practical experience in valve amp construction"

**You are, of course, incorrect. That won't stop you from lying and
misrepresenting my position, nor my words in the future, however.
You've
made it into something of an art form. You are a lying piece of ****.

Trevor. It is impossible for you to discuss in a calm and rational
way, without recourse to invective. You are sounding more like
Pinky by the day:-)


Is he not...??



Anyone can check the archive to find that my paragraph above is
sadly correct. Sadder still is the fact that since he made that
statement, you have confirmed Patrick's findings in any number of
tube audio related posts.


**No. I am advising him to LISTEN, before he plonks down a single
cent.


Others have asked. How can he listen to it before he has built it????

Surely you are not naive enough to think that people do not listen
carefully to a selection of amplifiers before making their choice?

**Lots of people don't listen. Keith is one.

I will continue to challenge your lies. Do not think you can get away
with
them. You won't.

Nothing to challenge. Anyone can check. .

A short while ago I was travelling in India. I spent an evening in
the company of a Jainist mystic/philosopher. He told me that he
believed that after death we each go to our own private hell.

So you can look forward to an eternity of Shostakovich Quartets
on SET amps with Lowthers, whioe the furnaces are fired with
ME amplifiers and HK cheapo CD players:-)


:-)

(Amazing coincidence, actually - Shost's 'Cello Concertos Nos 1 & 2 and
Symphony No 1 in F *only last night*!!)

Building my own valve amp
 

"tony sayer" wrote in message
...
???

(*You're* a 'forlorn voice'...??)


Hailing as I do from Bradford,


Unlucky....





At least we have hills up here...

--
Nick

I am reminded of a T shirt I saw a while ago saying "Wisbech Mountain
Rescue
Team".........

Which now would need to be in Latvian or Polish for anyone there to
understand it;!...


And Portugese over in Thetford, apparently...

Game, SET and match....
 

"tony sayer" wrote in message
...
In article , Keith G
scribeth thus

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Keith G wrote:
I think you'll find that's more to do with the speakers than the
amp -
the one thing horns do is *remove the veil* at the possible cost of
colouration while 'normal' speakers do the reverse from what I can
see
(hear) of it....

I'd say the two are opposites. Colouration *is* the main part of the
'veil'.


Not in my book - I see (hear) colouration mostly as the 'quackiness'
that unfortunately manifests itself on the male voice at times (radio
presenters, usually)

Processing for you!..


Yep, even hear it on the little Bush wooden jobbie from time to time!!




but the *veil* on ordinary speakers as the lack of
the clarity and edge (that horns have in abundance which, of course,
many people don't like) which leads to a comparative loss of detail
and
lack of space, depth and 'air'...

I think one thing that needs pointed out *yet again* is that most (if
not all) SET/horn/vinyl users have ready access to ordinary speakers
and
amps and (usually) plenty of *digital music* (I have them all in
*daily
use* here)

MP2 and 3 and 4 scourge of the earth;!...


Steady on, Tony - most of my 'digital' is actually on/from the computer,
so MP3 is the name of the game!! ;-)