Building my own valve amp
 

"Andy Evans" wrote in message
s.com...
If you have a low distortion amplifier then you are categorically NOT
hearing it.

I'm with Keith and Nick here - I maintain you can hear it. As Keith
has very carefully said, and I'm sure Nick and I have said using
practically the same words, the "true" standout characteristic of
valves (and I would add DHTs in particular) that we users know and
love consists of something intrinsic in the music, not extrinsic. You
state "adding something" but we hear ss amps as "taking something
away" - usually described as vividness, inner clarity, life, that kind
of thing. We hear this inner clarity as part of the music itself, and
we believe that this vividness is present in live music. We believe
that ss amps subtly mask this and sound flat. Contrary to supposition,
valve users don't like "that warm sound" - on the contrary they try
and get rid of any warmth or tubbiness masking the inner clarity they
seek, and DHTs in particular seem to preserve the clarity without
adding the warmth.

I hope I've correctly represented Keith and Nick - I think so from
reading their posts.


Yes, put simply (the sound from) 'normal' speakers and 'normal' SS amps
sounds flat and lifeless by comparison.

Shoot me for not choosing 'flat and lifeless'....

Building my own valve amp
 

"tony sayer" wrote in message
...
Whatever it is, it's something to do with individual perception and
the differential priorities we make.


You may be right - I wouldn't know. All I can say is that, having
tried
20 million SS amps without real satisfaction, the minute I fired up a
valve amp I was hooked forever - immediately there was 'life' and
clarity, air, space, depth, detail, tone, timbre, realism, enchantment
and the fragrance of Attar Of Roses in the air...


And the signal source for this enlightenment was?...



No idea now, tbh - probably an LP!

Building my own valve amp
 

"tony sayer" wrote in message
...
In article m, Andy
Evans scribeth thus
If you have a low distortion amplifier then you are categorically NOT
hearing it.

I'm with Keith and Nick here - I maintain you can hear it. As Keith
has very carefully said, and I'm sure Nick and I have said using
practically the same words, the "true" standout characteristic of
valves (and I would add DHTs in particular) that we users know and
love consists of something intrinsic in the music, not extrinsic. You
state "adding something" but we hear ss amps as "taking something
away" - usually described as vividness, inner clarity, life, that kind
of thing. We hear this inner clarity as part of the music itself, and
we believe that this vividness is present in live music. We believe
that ss amps subtly mask this and sound flat. Contrary to supposition,
valve users don't like "that warm sound" - on the contrary they try
and get rid of any warmth or tubbiness masking the inner clarity they
seek, and DHTs in particular seem to preserve the clarity without
adding the warmth.

I hope I've correctly represented Keith and Nick - I think so from
reading their posts.



I went to a concert the other night and some passages in that sounded
distorted!..FWIW...


I've said it before - if my kit sounded as bad as some of the live stuff
I've heard I'd get rid of it...

Building my own valve amp
 

SET does things to the signal, and SS doesn't.

I'm not necessarily standing up for SET here - I'm just as happy to
compare an all DHT push pull amp.

I'm afraid your relativistic stance doesn't survive examination.

Well, it's you that's calling it relativistic. As I said, I believe
there's a missing piece in the jigsaw.

OK - look at it this way. What's hard science and what's soft science?
Medicine is soft science - a typical GP gives a full textbook
diagnosis half the time and even when the diagnosis is correct the
treatment may only be text book correct half of those cases - so only
in a quarter of cases is the treatment and diagnosis correct. Maths is
a hard science. Physics is a pretty hard science. Psychoacoustics
looks like being about as soft a science as medicine - we may know a
lot of causes but we don't know others. We understand some effects but
not others. Aren't we really asking too much from a soft science to
make sweeping statements like "amplifiers are perfect"?


Can you not simply accept that you like the way SETs and horns
change
the sound? What is with this rather desperate attempt to claim it not
to be so?

Please leave out SETs and horns for this argument. To my ears a good
valve amp reveals details that most ss amps I've heard seem to subtly
mask. So no, I believe both amps subtly change the sound.

Building my own valve amp
 

On Tue, 06 Nov 2007 02:52:08 -0800, Andy Evans
wrote:

SET does things to the signal, and SS doesn't.

I'm not necessarily standing up for SET here - I'm just as happy to
compare an all DHT push pull amp.

I'm afraid your relativistic stance doesn't survive examination.

Well, it's you that's calling it relativistic. As I said, I believe
there's a missing piece in the jigsaw.

OK - look at it this way. What's hard science and what's soft science?
Medicine is soft science - a typical GP gives a full textbook
diagnosis half the time and even when the diagnosis is correct the
treatment may only be text book correct half of those cases - so only
in a quarter of cases is the treatment and diagnosis correct. Maths is
a hard science. Physics is a pretty hard science. Psychoacoustics
looks like being about as soft a science as medicine - we may know a
lot of causes but we don't know others. We understand some effects but
not others. Aren't we really asking too much from a soft science to
make sweeping statements like "amplifiers are perfect"?


What is science? Physics is science; everything else is bureaucracy
(except when it dips into physics). And of course the perfection of
amplifiers is nothing to do with acoustics, it is to do simply with
signals. There is just one question that needs to be asked - is what
comes out a bigger version of what goes in? The extent to which you
can say yes to that is the measure of perfection in an amplifier.


Can you not simply accept that you like the way SETs and horns
change
the sound? What is with this rather desperate attempt to claim it not
to be so?

Please leave out SETs and horns for this argument. To my ears a good
valve amp reveals details that most ss amps I've heard seem to subtly
mask. So no, I believe both amps subtly change the sound.



It is really easy to reveal sounds in a recording that are otherwise
masked. You give a little twist to one of the eq pots on the desk. It
is like magic. If you find that a particular amp is "revealing" stuff,
you can be sure that this is what is going on - there is some
unflatness.

Sorry to keep on with the SETs and horns, but they represent the
extreme case of what we are talking about. Most other valve amps will
suffer the "tweaked eq pot" problem by virtue of the almost inevitable
high output impedance. I know there are a very few good valve amps
that approach the performance of SS, but they are not what we are
talking about either.

d

--
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

Building my own valve amp
 

"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 6 Nov 2007 10:36:09 -0000, "Keith G"
wrote:

Others want to hear what the amplifier is doing, and the speakers.


No Don, you got that entirely wrong - the whole point of the 'horns'
is
that they stand entirely disconnected from and seemingly independant
of
the sound....



See my latest reply to Andy. This is a relative thing, and you are
standing on the moving bit.


But you 'sand ampers' are the ones busy *augmenting* your systems and
trying to change the way they present the music...???

Building my own valve amp
 

"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 06 Nov 2007 02:29:08 -0800, Andy Evans
wrote:

If you have a low distortion amplifier then you are categorically NOT
hearing it.

I'm with Keith and Nick here - I maintain you can hear it. As Keith
has very carefully said, and I'm sure Nick and I have said using
practically the same words, the "true" standout characteristic of
valves (and I would add DHTs in particular) that we users know and
love consists of something intrinsic in the music, not extrinsic. You
state "adding something" but we hear ss amps as "taking something
away" - usually described as vividness, inner clarity, life, that kind
of thing. We hear this inner clarity as part of the music itself, and
we believe that this vividness is present in live music. We believe
that ss amps subtly mask this and sound flat. Contrary to supposition,
valve users don't like "that warm sound" - on the contrary they try
and get rid of any warmth or tubbiness masking the inner clarity they
seek, and DHTs in particular seem to preserve the clarity without
adding the warmth.

I hope I've correctly represented Keith and Nick - I think so from
reading their posts.


To a man standing on a moving train, the world is apparently moving
past him, but that doesn't mean he can validly claim that to be so. It
is very clear from even a cursory examination of SET and SS amplifiers
that SET does things to the signal, and SS doesn't.

I'm afraid your relativistic stance doesn't survive examination.

Can you not simply accept that you like the way SETs and horns change
the sound? What is with this rather desperate attempt to claim it not
to be so? Just enjoy it.


Nothing desperate about it - I (and one or two others, it seems) simply
prefer the way SET/horns *present* the sound. AFAIAC, I'm not too fussed
about what changes are going on but to think that 'blameless' SS kit
doesn't distort or change the signal is just wishful thinking in my
book. Remember I have just got rid of an amplifier with 'some of the
lowest noise and distortion figures on record'....

Building my own valve amp
 

On Tue, 6 Nov 2007 10:46:01 -0000, "Keith G"
wrote:


"Andy Evans" wrote in message
ps.com...
If you have a low distortion amplifier then you are categorically NOT
hearing it.

I'm with Keith and Nick here - I maintain you can hear it. As Keith
has very carefully said, and I'm sure Nick and I have said using
practically the same words, the "true" standout characteristic of
valves (and I would add DHTs in particular) that we users know and
love consists of something intrinsic in the music, not extrinsic. You
state "adding something" but we hear ss amps as "taking something
away" - usually described as vividness, inner clarity, life, that kind
of thing. We hear this inner clarity as part of the music itself, and
we believe that this vividness is present in live music. We believe
that ss amps subtly mask this and sound flat. Contrary to supposition,
valve users don't like "that warm sound" - on the contrary they try
and get rid of any warmth or tubbiness masking the inner clarity they
seek, and DHTs in particular seem to preserve the clarity without
adding the warmth.

I hope I've correctly represented Keith and Nick - I think so from
reading their posts.


Yes, put simply (the sound from) 'normal' speakers and 'normal' SS amps
sounds flat and lifeless by comparison.

Shoot me for not choosing 'flat and lifeless'....


That's all fine. Your kit adds unflatness and liveliness. Those are
both quite valid effects; for me they pall very quickly and I yearn
for the variety of music that isn't all varnished in that one colour.

d

--
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

Building my own valve amp
 

On Tue, 6 Nov 2007 11:07:30 -0000, "Keith G"
wrote:


"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 06 Nov 2007 02:29:08 -0800, Andy Evans
wrote:

If you have a low distortion amplifier then you are categorically NOT
hearing it.

I'm with Keith and Nick here - I maintain you can hear it. As Keith
has very carefully said, and I'm sure Nick and I have said using
practically the same words, the "true" standout characteristic of
valves (and I would add DHTs in particular) that we users know and
love consists of something intrinsic in the music, not extrinsic. You
state "adding something" but we hear ss amps as "taking something
away" - usually described as vividness, inner clarity, life, that kind
of thing. We hear this inner clarity as part of the music itself, and
we believe that this vividness is present in live music. We believe
that ss amps subtly mask this and sound flat. Contrary to supposition,
valve users don't like "that warm sound" - on the contrary they try
and get rid of any warmth or tubbiness masking the inner clarity they
seek, and DHTs in particular seem to preserve the clarity without
adding the warmth.

I hope I've correctly represented Keith and Nick - I think so from
reading their posts.


To a man standing on a moving train, the world is apparently moving
past him, but that doesn't mean he can validly claim that to be so. It
is very clear from even a cursory examination of SET and SS amplifiers
that SET does things to the signal, and SS doesn't.

I'm afraid your relativistic stance doesn't survive examination.

Can you not simply accept that you like the way SETs and horns change
the sound? What is with this rather desperate attempt to claim it not
to be so? Just enjoy it.


Nothing desperate about it - I (and one or two others, it seems) simply
prefer the way SET/horns *present* the sound. AFAIAC, I'm not too fussed
about what changes are going on but to think that 'blameless' SS kit
doesn't distort or change the signal is just wishful thinking in my
book. Remember I have just got rid of an amplifier with 'some of the
lowest noise and distortion figures on record'....



But it is a fact that those amplifiers don't do anything to the signal
- no wishful thinking needed. I've done the tests myself putting a
power amplifier in line (followed by an attenuator) to assess whether
it makes any difference to the signal, and I assure you that it
doesn't.

d

--
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

Building my own valve amp
 

On Tue, 6 Nov 2007 11:07:21 -0000, "Keith G"
wrote:


"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 6 Nov 2007 10:36:09 -0000, "Keith G"
wrote:

Others want to hear what the amplifier is doing, and the speakers.


No Don, you got that entirely wrong - the whole point of the 'horns'
is
that they stand entirely disconnected from and seemingly independant
of
the sound....



See my latest reply to Andy. This is a relative thing, and you are
standing on the moving bit.


But you 'sand ampers' are the ones busy *augmenting* your systems and
trying to change the way they present the music...???


No. Categorically not. There is absolutely no augmenting going on in
my system. Every bit of kit is chosen and set up to be as inaudible as
possible.

d

--
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com