What a sad excuse for a group this is...
 

"Malcolm" wrote in message


On Wed, 26 Dec 2007 02:59:11 -0800, Andy Evans wrote:

?What I object to are the "objectivists" insisting that
their chosen rationale is the only one and (even worse)
failing to follow it themselves in their chosen hi-fi
equipment.

Straw man and just plain false on several grounds. First off, the
objectivists that audiophiles rant and rave about don't correlate with the
generally accepted definitions of objectivism and subjectivism. Secondly, we
see here a classic straw man argument: While rationales are the purported
issue, no specifics are given. It's classic "We versus them" posturing.

You'll never escape this with engineers - to the
engineer the scientific method "is" the only one.

Another example of dogmatic posturing - the claim that all engineers think
the same.

You can see the point - it did produce science as we know it.

Yes, many of us would be just plain dead were it not for the advancements of
science over the centuries.

The irony is that in one sense I am an engineer - I have
a degree in Electrical Engineering (and another in
Psychology).

One degree seems to dominate. I wonder which came first and why.

And I agree about the science - or more
accurately the scientific method - it's possibly
mankind's greatest achievement. However, science has it's
limits and when it tries to correlate an inner aesthetic
with measurements, then things start to get a little
tricky.

Yet another straw man argument. Audio measurements and the inner aesthetic
are like apples and oranges.

In terms of the scientific method, if it ain't proved,
it subjectivist.

Simply not true. Fi9rst off, in the scientific method, nothing is proved,
the findings of science are provisional. That means that science is not
about TRVTH. Science is about findings whose accuracy and relevance that
tend to improve with time.

But, the subjectivists argue, how can you "prove"
aesthetics, taste, or simple listening preference.

Preferences are like buttholes - everybody has at least one.

And
the musician says "do I really need an engineer to tell
me what's music and what aint?"

Yet another straw man argument. Audio is not excusively about music, and its
certainly not about music appreciation, as any person with musical taste who
has listened to the usual gamut of audiophile demonstration recordings can
tell you.

Ah, says the engineer, music is art but its reproduction
is engineering.

Just taking the preference and aesthetics arguments out of the room.

"Still sounds exactly like music to me except it comes
out of loudspeakers, says the musician

Yet another straw man argument - all the audio engineers I know agree that
reproduced music does not sound identically the same as live music.

- I trust my ears
to tell me what an oboe and a basson sounds like, more
than a machine that goes bleep and produces fractions"

One of the many logical errors here is the implication that all oboes sound
the same.

Ah, says the engineer, the machine that goes bleep
doesn't smoke joints, go through a bottle of red in a
listening session and feel better when its mates are
over for a curry.........

Oh my goodness - its pub-level intellectualism run amok.

Reminds me of the definition of a drummer:

"A drummer is somebody who is jealous of a drum machine
because it can play in 7/4 without taking cocaine"

Agree totally with your "analysis(!)" above.

Yawn. It's the blind leading the blind and the clueless educating the
clueless. :-(

What a sad excuse for a group this is...
 

As usual Krueger poses as an audiophile but writes without either the
finesse or the insight that might make what he writes of any interest.
As for humour, clearly forget it.

What a sad excuse for a group this is...
 

"Andy Evans" wrote in message
...
As usual Krueger poses as an audiophile but writes without either the
finesse or the insight that might make what he writes of any interest.
As for humour, clearly forget it.


It's a *syndrome* - a lifetime spent in 'audio' seems to turn a certain
percentage of the self-styled 'audio engineers' into serious malcontents and
makes them sour. We seen enough of them here, have we not?

(I wonder why - it's lot easier than coal-mining, for example...??)

What a sad excuse for a group this is...
 

In article ,
Keith G wrote:
It's a *syndrome* - a lifetime spent in 'audio' seems to turn a certain
percentage of the self-styled 'audio engineers' into serious malcontents
and makes them sour. We seen enough of them here, have we not?

It's quite common when pros have to deal with untalented amateurs in any
field. Especially those who try and re-invent the wheel.

--
*Okay, who stopped the payment on my reality check? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

What a sad excuse for a group this is...
 

On Mon, 07 Jan 2008 16:48:44 +0000, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
Keith G wrote:
It's a *syndrome* - a lifetime spent in 'audio' seems to turn a certain
percentage of the self-styled 'audio engineers' into serious
malcontents and makes them sour. We seen enough of them here, have we
not?

It's quite common when pros have to deal with untalented amateurs in any
field. Especially those who try and re-invent the wheel.


Thank you for proving Keith's point.

What a sad excuse for a group this is...
 

Malcolm wrote:

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
Keith G wrote:

It's a *syndrome* - a lifetime spent in 'audio' seems to turn a certain
percentage of the self-styled 'audio engineers' into serious
malcontents and makes them sour. We seen enough of them here, have we
not?

It's quite common when pros have to deal with untalented amateurs in any
field. Especially those who try and re-invent the wheel.

Thank you for proving Keith's point.

Thanks for proving you're an untalented amateur.

Graham

What a sad excuse for a group this is...
 

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"Andy Evans" wrote in message
...
As usual Krueger poses as an audiophile but writes without either the
finesse or the insight that might make what he writes of any interest.
As for humour, clearly forget it.


It's a *syndrome* - a lifetime spent in 'audio' seems to turn a certain
percentage of the self-styled 'audio engineers' into serious malcontents
and makes them sour.

Sour about what that's relevant to modern audio?

What a sad excuse for a group this is...
 

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Keith G wrote:
It's a *syndrome* - a lifetime spent in 'audio' seems to turn a certain
percentage of the self-styled 'audio engineers' into serious malcontents
and makes them sour. We seen enough of them here, have we not?

It's quite common when pros have to deal with untalented amateurs in any
field. Especially those who try and re-invent the wheel.

Unfortunately, I've got a few who not only want me to re-invent the wheel,
but they want me to do all of their dirty work, and according their
botched-up plan. If they'd pay time and materials at a reasonable rate it
would be merely a waste of my time and their money. But, they keep shouting
at me and beating me about the head and shoulders, saying that I'm
uncharitable because I want to be paid or do it my way. They don't want to
take a little time off from their high-paying jobs to help, either.

What a sad excuse for a group this is...
 

"Eeyore" wrote in message
...


Malcolm wrote:

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
Keith G wrote:

It's a *syndrome* - a lifetime spent in 'audio' seems to turn a
certain
percentage of the self-styled 'audio engineers' into serious
malcontents and makes them sour. We seen enough of them here, have we
not?

It's quite common when pros have to deal with untalented amateurs in
any
field. Especially those who try and re-invent the wheel.

Thank you for proving Keith's point.

Thanks for proving you're an untalented amateur.

Either that, and/or he doesn't know one when he sees one.

What a sad excuse for a group this is...
 

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..

"Eeyore" wrote in message
...


Malcolm wrote:

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
Keith G wrote:

It's a *syndrome* - a lifetime spent in 'audio' seems to turn a
certain
percentage of the self-styled 'audio engineers' into serious
malcontents and makes them sour. We seen enough of them here, have we
not?

It's quite common when pros have to deal with untalented amateurs in
any
field. Especially those who try and re-invent the wheel.

Thank you for proving Keith's point.

Thanks for proving you're an untalented amateur.

Either that, and/or he doesn't know one when he sees one.



Untalented amateurs are a facter life and cause little grief - it's the
untalented* pros that need watching....


*****-useless, usually, but want paying anyway...