Improving loudspeaker crossovers (SBL's)
 

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"Serge Auckland" wrote in message
...
Keith G" wrote



OK, that's an interesting statement - what do you think of these
near-identical clips (one CD, the other vinyl)?

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/MilesA.mp3

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/MilesB.mp3


Do you have a clear preference?


Miles A is a lot cleaner, much lower distortion on the highs, so I assume
it to be the CD. Sounds much nicer to me.Miles B is also a fair bit
louder and sounds compressed in comparison with A. Interestingly, the
frequency spectrum of A cuts off very rapidly at 16k whilst B goes on to
21k. I assume therefore that A is CD, and the relatively limited
bandwidth is a function of the original tapes, whilt B is vinyl, and the
very top is just noise.


You are right - A is the CD. (I 'normalised' both those clips to -16 dB
and that's what comes out - Gawd knows what's going on in the software!)
Also, the vinyl clip was my first attempt at recording to this (Vista)
laptop and it was a nightmare!

I think you'll find they were normalised to -1dBFS, at least, that's what my
software shows.


The CD clip exhibits the 'clarity' (lack of noise floor) that is often
associated with CD, but it simply sounds *shouty* to me and the percussion
is brittle when compared with the vinyl. Disregarding *measurements* for
this purpose and using only my ears, once again, I prefer the vinyl (what
new?) by, er, *miles*!! (Oops :-)

Strange isn't it, it's B that sounds "shouty" to me, especially the
roughness with highs.

Ya pays yer money....

(Except in this case I did for *both* the CD and LP....!! ;-)


Indeed.

S.


--
http://audiopages.googlepages.com

Improving loudspeaker crossovers (SBL's)
 

"Serge Auckland" wrote


The CD clip exhibits the 'clarity' (lack of noise floor) that is often
associated with CD, but it simply sounds *shouty* to me and the
percussion is brittle when compared with the vinyl. Disregarding
*measurements* for this purpose and using only my ears, once again, I
prefer the vinyl (what new?) by, er, *miles*!! (Oops :-)

Strange isn't it, it's B that sounds "shouty" to me, especially the
roughness with highs.


The bass is also somewhat recessed on the CD version which is what makes it
'shouty' to me, but I've trimmed the clips down:

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/SmallMilesA.mp3

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/SmallMilesB.mp3


.....to enable more direct comparisons to be made and, if anything, the CD is
more shouty than ever and completely lacking in 'texture' - by comparison to
the vinyl, which is why I consider CD to be less *natural* and certainly
less 'listenable'!

(I guess one man's 'texture' is another man's *noise*....?? :-)

Improving loudspeaker crossovers (SBL's)
 

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"Serge Auckland" wrote


The CD clip exhibits the 'clarity' (lack of noise floor) that is often
associated with CD, but it simply sounds *shouty* to me and the
percussion is brittle when compared with the vinyl. Disregarding
*measurements* for this purpose and using only my ears, once again, I
prefer the vinyl (what new?) by, er, *miles*!! (Oops :-)

Strange isn't it, it's B that sounds "shouty" to me, especially the
roughness with highs.


The bass is also somewhat recessed on the CD version which is what makes
it 'shouty' to me, but I've trimmed the clips down:

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/SmallMilesA.mp3

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/SmallMilesB.mp3


....to enable more direct comparisons to be made and, if anything, the CD
is more shouty than ever and completely lacking in 'texture' - by
comparison to the vinyl, which is why I consider CD to be less *natural*
and certainly less 'listenable'!

(I guess one man's 'texture' is another man's *noise*....?? :-)


Exactly the other way round for me! A is clean, B is coloured (shouty isn't
a bad way of describing it) I suppose your texture is my coloration. By the
way, what cartridge did you use for the vinyl? I would guess an AT95 or
similar.

S.


--
http://audiopages.googlepages.com

Improving loudspeaker crossovers (SBL's)
 

"Serge Auckland" wrote in message
...
"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"Serge Auckland" wrote


The CD clip exhibits the 'clarity' (lack of noise floor) that is often
associated with CD, but it simply sounds *shouty* to me and the
percussion is brittle when compared with the vinyl. Disregarding
*measurements* for this purpose and using only my ears, once again, I
prefer the vinyl (what new?) by, er, *miles*!! (Oops :-)

Strange isn't it, it's B that sounds "shouty" to me, especially the
roughness with highs.


The bass is also somewhat recessed on the CD version which is what makes
it 'shouty' to me, but I've trimmed the clips down:

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/SmallMilesA.mp3

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/SmallMilesB.mp3


....to enable more direct comparisons to be made and, if anything, the CD
is more shouty than ever and completely lacking in 'texture' - by
comparison to the vinyl, which is why I consider CD to be less *natural*
and certainly less 'listenable'!

(I guess one man's 'texture' is another man's *noise*....?? :-)


Exactly the other way round for me! A is clean, B is coloured (shouty
isn't a bad way of describing it) I suppose your texture is my coloration.


The 'something added vs. something lacking' dichotomy again? :-)


By the
way, what cartridge did you use for the vinyl? I would guess an AT95 or
similar.


A Goldring Electro II+ which is a high output (2.5 mV) MC with a van den Hul
I stylus. (So, not really!! :-)

(That's after having found a busted wire in the connectors on my other deck,
which was the one I was going to use - and which you've reminded me needs
sorting!)

Improving loudspeaker crossovers (SBL's)
 

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"Serge Auckland" wrote in message
...
"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"Serge Auckland" wrote


The CD clip exhibits the 'clarity' (lack of noise floor) that is often
associated with CD, but it simply sounds *shouty* to me and the
percussion is brittle when compared with the vinyl. Disregarding
*measurements* for this purpose and using only my ears, once again, I
prefer the vinyl (what new?) by, er, *miles*!! (Oops :-)

Strange isn't it, it's B that sounds "shouty" to me, especially the
roughness with highs.


The bass is also somewhat recessed on the CD version which is what makes
it 'shouty' to me, but I've trimmed the clips down:

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/SmallMilesA.mp3

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/SmallMilesB.mp3


....to enable more direct comparisons to be made and, if anything, the
CD is more shouty than ever and completely lacking in 'texture' - by
comparison to the vinyl, which is why I consider CD to be less *natural*
and certainly less 'listenable'!

(I guess one man's 'texture' is another man's *noise*....?? :-)


Exactly the other way round for me! A is clean, B is coloured (shouty
isn't a bad way of describing it) I suppose your texture is my
coloration.


The 'something added vs. something lacking' dichotomy again? :-)

Exactly. I find vinyl adds something undesirable, you feel CD lacks
something desirable.



By the
way, what cartridge did you use for the vinyl? I would guess an AT95 or
similar.


A Goldring Electro II+ which is a high output (2.5 mV) MC with a van den
Hul I stylus. (So, not really!! :-)

(That's after having found a busted wire in the connectors on my other
deck, which was the one I was going to use - and which you've reminded me
needs sorting!)

I'm surprised, as the Goldring I have (1042) and my memories of Goldring
G800 series were of quite smooth cartridges. Maybe the disk is well worn, as
I found the loud highs quite rough.

S


--
http://audiopages.googlepages.com

Improving loudspeaker crossovers (SBL's)
 

"Serge Auckland" wrote in message
...
"Keith G" wrote


The 'something added vs. something lacking' dichotomy again? :-)

Exactly. I find vinyl adds something undesirable, you feel CD lacks
something desirable.


My only problem with CD is they don't hold my attention. I can listen to
them for sounds but, for some strange reason, I don't take them seriously
for music! And it's not like the (far) superior soundstaging of vinyl has
anything to do with it, as I'm often floating about the house when the music
is on and everything gets nicely 'monoed' by the time I hear it!



(That's after having found a busted wire in the connectors on my other
deck, which was the one I was going to use - and which you've reminded me
needs sorting!)


Aha! A timely reminder!!



I'm surprised, as the Goldring I have (1042) and my memories of Goldring
G800 series were of quite smooth cartridges. Maybe the disk is well worn,
as I found the loud highs quite rough.


I didn't get on too well with the G1042 and the only working G800 (ie with a
decent needle) I have is with Shiny Nigel atm - I seem to prefer Shure MMs
and Ortofon MCs, myself! That said, the Goldring is possibly a little too
rare for the work it's doing and I will probably swap it out for an AT110E -
which work superbly well on linear trackers!

Improving loudspeaker crossovers (SBL's)
 

"Keith G" wrote in message
...


My only problem with CD is they don't hold my attention. I can listen to
them for sounds but, for some strange reason, I don't take them seriously
for music!

Because you have an emotional attachment to the *idea* of vinyl, because you
like the ritual of cleaning the disc, watching it turn, lowering the stylus
into it etc? Perhaps CDs are simply too easy to play for your liking.

And it's not like the (far) superior soundstaging of vinyl has anything to
do with it,

How do you work that one out? Vinyl has a poor crosstalk figure (typically
around 25-30dB) whilst with CD the crosstalk is as good as the producer of
the recording wants it to be. How does that create "(far) superior
soundstaging" for vinyl?

David.

Improving loudspeaker crossovers (SBL's)
 

Bob Latham wrote:

I have to say I do know exactly what keith means here. The most impressive
soundstage or imaging I have ever heard was from an Ortofon MC10 or 20
can't remember which that i owned at one time. I've not heard CD image
like that cartridge did. I bet some will argue that this is due to some
mid band frequency response error and that may be the case, I don't know.
Was lovely though.

Did we have soundstaging or imaging in those days?

--
Eiron.

Improving loudspeaker crossovers (SBL's)
 

"David Looser" wrote in message
...
"Keith G" wrote in message
...


My only problem with CD is they don't hold my attention. I can listen to
them for sounds but, for some strange reason, I don't take them seriously
for music!

Because you have an emotional attachment to the *idea* of vinyl, because
you like the ritual of cleaning the disc, watching it turn, lowering the
stylus into it etc? Perhaps CDs are simply too easy to play for your
liking.


Quite possibly all of that!


And it's not like the (far) superior soundstaging of vinyl has anything
to do with it,

How do you work that one out? Vinyl has a poor crosstalk figure (typically
around 25-30dB) whilst with CD the crosstalk is as good as the producer of
the recording wants it to be. How does that create "(far) superior
soundstaging" for vinyl?


No idea - all I know is CDs have virtually no 'soundstaging' at all,
compared with almost all vinyl...??

(Reverb is *not* soundstaging....)

Improving loudspeaker crossovers (SBL's)
 

"Bob Latham" wrote in message
...
In article ,
David Looser wrote:
"Keith G" wrote in message
...

And it's not like the (far) superior soundstaging of vinyl has
anything to do with it,

How do you work that one out? Vinyl has a poor crosstalk figure
(typically around 25-30dB) whilst with CD the crosstalk is as good as
the producer of the recording wants it to be. How does that create
"(far) superior soundstaging" for vinyl?

I have to say I do know exactly what keith means here. The most impressive
soundstage or imaging I have ever heard was from an Ortofon MC10 or 20
can't remember which that i owned at one time. I've not heard CD image
like that cartridge did. I bet some will argue that this is due to some
mid band frequency response error and that may be the case, I don't know.
Was lovely though.


Shhh.....

(They don't come up on eBay too often!! ;-)