Improving loudspeaker crossovers (SBL's)
 

Keith G wrote:

but let's not forget the far superior 'information carrying' capacity of CDs -
the average LP lasts approximately 7 minutes per side;

Uh ? More like 20 mins IIRC.


the average music CD lasts 3 days....

Anything that plays for 3 days ISN'T an audio *CD* ! An audio CD is limited to ~
50 mins.

Graham

Improving loudspeaker crossovers (SBL's)
 

David Looser wrote:

"Bob Latham" wrote

If you guys say so. I would say enormous numbers of people prefer LPs to
Cds. I would go as far as to say most people that I know do. Apart from on
this group I've never ever heard anyone say they prefer CD for sound
quality. Durability, lack of clicks, playing time and even simplicity but
never ever sound quality.

What the reason for this is I don't know. It could be a liking for
coloration

I guess it must be.

or it could be that there is something wrong with the sound of
CD.

Sonically speaking CDs hardly exist, they don't really have a "sound". They
are simply a carrier of 2 channel 16-bit/44100 sample/sec uncompressed
digital audio.

Certainly from 1982 to 1987 my wife could only spend a few minutes
listening to CD before leaving the room, she thought CD was so awful until
we got the Meridian 207/8.

Individual CD players can have a "sound", particularly those early ones with
wholly analogue "brick-wall" filtering and only 1 D-A converter time-shared
between the two channels.

And as has been discussed here at length the mastering of CDs can often
leave a lot to be desired. But none of this is the fault of the CD.

I agree with all you say.

I HAVE heard bad CD players such as the original Sony CDP-101. It souded 'harsh'
to me (one can speculate over what casued that) and I was convinced that
reverberation was being truncated (although that could have been the result of
flawed mastering).

As a result I didn't buy a CD player until ~ 1989. A Denon DCD-1710 which
sounded natural. I still have it. There seems no point in upgrading since it
works fine plus its build quality is the kind of thing one is never likely to
see again outside of esoteric hi-fi.

I also have a decent Panasonic DVD player. I honestly can't tell it apart from
the Denon.

Graham

Improving loudspeaker crossovers (SBL's)
 

In article , Eeyore rabbitsfriendsandrel
scribeth thus


Bob Latham wrote:

Arny Krueger wrote:

I can see the nostalgia aspect to playing LPs, and I can see the
situation where people have musical performances that they prefer, but
were never adequately re-released on CD.

If you guys say so. I would say enormous numbers of people prefer LPs to
Cds. I would go as far as to say most people that I know do.

I know NO-ONE who thiks that !


Apart from on
this group I've never ever heard anyone say they prefer CD for sound
quality. Durability, lack of clicks, playing time and even simplicity but
never ever sound quality.

Since when were scratches not deleterious to audio quality ?

Things I recall about LPs that were total rubbish include surface noise and
absence of disc flatness that you could hear as kind of slow whoosh in the
background.

My kit was good enough that hum wasn't a problem but signal to noise ratio is
vastly inferior to CD. There is also NO WAY that an LP even played with the
very best gear will come remotely close to a CD's flat frequency response and
low distortion.


Also, the sensitive unbaalanced phono preamp is particularly
vulnerable to demodulating things like passing taxi radios.

Seeing that there aren't anymore AM systems around thats quite
impressive;!...

--
Tony Sayer

Improving loudspeaker crossovers (SBL's)
 

"Bob Latham" wrote in message

In article ,
Arny Krueger wrote:
"Eeyore" wrote
in
message

I can only imagine LPs being of interest to mostly
somewhat deaf people these days.

Agreed that it takes considerable ear damage for a sane
person to perceive that LPs categorically sound better
than CDs.

I can see the nostalgia aspect to playing LPs, and I can
see the situation where people have musical performances
that they prefer, but were never adequately re-released
on CD.

If you guys say so. I would say enormous numbers of
people prefer LPs to Cds.

Of course, you're one of them.

But what does enormous mean?

A tiny fraction of all people is still an enourmous number of people.

And why does this allegedly enourmous number of people have the preferences
that they do?

I would go as far as to say
most people that I know do.

Well, that speaks only to your circle of acquaintances.

Apart from on this group I've
never ever heard anyone say they prefer CD for sound
quality.

Apart from a few mostly anonymous internet trolls, I've never heard anyone
say that they prefer the LP for sound quality.

For audio, it is a digital world.

Durability, lack of clicks, playing time and
even simplicity but never ever sound quality.

Well, that speaks only to your circle of acquaintances.

What the reason for this is I don't know.

Something about not getting out much.

It could be a
liking for coloration or it could be that there is
something wrong with the sound of CD.

There is no chance that there is anything wrong with the sound of the CD
format since it is sonically transparent. If you don't like the way that the
CD format reproduces a certain sound that has been turned into an electrical
signal, then you don't like the sound of that electrical signal.

Certainly from 1982
to 1987 my wife could only spend a few minutes listening
to CD before leaving the room, she thought CD was so
awful until we got the Meridian 207/8.

Speaks to your wife's willingness to pander to your minority preferences and
phobias.

Improving loudspeaker crossovers (SBL's)
 

"Eeyore" wrote in
message
Keith G wrote:

but let's not forget the far superior 'information
carrying' capacity of CDs - the average LP lasts
approximately 7 minutes per side;

Uh ? More like 20 mins IIRC.

Agreed. Except that LPs are generally so bad that it is questionable
whether you can call the corrupted mess that can be recovered from them
*music*.

the average music CD lasts 3 days....

my MP3 CDs last about 8 hours.

Anything that plays for 3 days ISN'T an audio *CD* ! An
audio CD is limited to ~ 50 mins.

Well, 72 or 80.

Improving loudspeaker crossovers (SBL's)
 

Eeyore wrote:

I HAVE heard bad CD players such as the original Sony CDP-101. It souded 'harsh'
to me (one can speculate over what casued that) and I was convinced that
reverberation was being truncated (although that could have been the result of
flawed mastering).

Me too. I never discovered whether it was my neighbour's CDP-101, the
'Realistic'
amp and speakers or the 1980's music but something gave me a headache.
Perhaps he's still got it in the junk box; it would be interesting to
find out how bad it was.

--
Eiron.

Improving loudspeaker crossovers (SBL's)
 

tony sayer wrote:

Eeyore scribeth thus
Bob Latham wrote:
Arny Krueger wrote:

I can see the nostalgia aspect to playing LPs, and I can see the
situation where people have musical performances that they prefer, but
were never adequately re-released on CD.

If you guys say so. I would say enormous numbers of people prefer LPs to
Cds. I would go as far as to say most people that I know do.

I know NO-ONE who thiks that !


Apart from on
this group I've never ever heard anyone say they prefer CD for sound
quality. Durability, lack of clicks, playing time and even simplicity but
never ever sound quality.

Since when were scratches not deleterious to audio quality ?

Things I recall about LPs that were total rubbish include surface noise and
absence of disc flatness that you could hear as kind of slow whoosh in the
background.

My kit was good enough that hum wasn't a problem but signal to noise ratio is
vastly inferior to CD. There is also NO WAY that an LP even played with the
very best gear will come remotely close to a CD's flat frequency response and
low distortion.

Also, the sensitive unbaalanced phono preamp is particularly
vulnerable to demodulating things like passing taxi radios.

Seeing that there aren't anymore AM systems around thats quite
impressive;!...

Well, I haven't used it in about 20 years so I wouldn't know. CD players don't
suffer this.

Graham

Improving loudspeaker crossovers (SBL's)
 

Arny Krueger wrote:

There is no chance that there is anything wrong with the sound of the CD
format since it is sonically transparent.

No help to those who actively seek colouration though. Same as valve amps. The
two ( liking valves and LPs) seem to go hand-in-hand which strongly suggests to
me that those people like a strongly coloured sound.

Graham

Improving loudspeaker crossovers (SBL's)
 

"Eeyore" wrote

Keith G wrote:

but let's not forget the far superior 'information carrying' capacity of CDs -
the average LP lasts approximately 7 minutes per side;

Uh ? More like 20 mins IIRC.

Pretty sure Def Leppard "Hysteria" is over an hour long. But yeah, that's
uncommon.


Martin
--
M.A.Poyser Tel.: 07967 110890
Manchester, U.K. http://www.livejournal.com/userinfo.bml?user=fleetie

Improving loudspeaker crossovers (SBL's)
 

"Eiron" wrote in message

Eeyore wrote:

I HAVE heard bad CD players such as the original Sony
CDP-101. It souded 'harsh' to me (one can speculate over
what casued that) and I was convinced that
reverberation was being truncated (although that could
have been the result of flawed mastering).

Me too. I never discovered whether it was my neighbour's
CDP-101, the 'Realistic'
amp and speakers or the 1980's music but something gave
me a headache. Perhaps he's still got it in the junk box;
it would be interesting to find out how bad it was.

I have two operational CDP 101s at my disposal.

I ran some technical tests on one of them some years ago and posted the
results he

http://www.pcavtech.com/play-rec/Sony_CDP-101/index.htm

The roll-off above 10 KHz is about 0.5 dB down at 20 KHz - its pretty gentle
but there are reports that it can be heard in careful DBTs using certain
choral music or pink noise as the source. OK, it sounds a tiny bit soft when
compared to the original, but only in a close comparison and then only with
certain very critical program material.

The interchannel delay can be heard if you have a center channel speaker
that is fed with the two channels summed, again only with certain program
material. Again, the difference is usually noticed as a slightly soft sound.

From time to time both myself and the owner of one of the players play these
players for people without telling them what they are hearing. As a rule,
nobody notices nuttin'. They very much sound like good modern CD players.
There were a large number of earlier CDP 101s that were built with some
chips that failed after about 5 years of heavy use, and when failing, slowly
ruined the tracking. Later versions had a corrected chip/ One of the two
players had the chips replaced. I don't know much about the history of the
other one, but it tracks CDs and CDRs just fine.

My personal very early production CDP101 also had the problem with the bad
chip. When it stopped tracking and couldn't be adjusted to track, I just
threw it away and bought a Technics player. The Technics failed about 7
years after that.

I currently either play ripped CDs from my file server collection of .wav
files, or play CDs on my RCA DVR or Pioneer combo CD/DVD/DVD-A/SACD player.