New page on LP cartridge measurements, etc
 

David Looser wrote:
"MINe109" wrote in message
...

I've just learned from researching the controversy over the new
Metallica album that the Guitar Hero video game may also be an
alternative medium with better-sounding mastering.

That was mentioned on the "You & Yours" piece about this CD. An on-air
comparison was made between, the CD version and the Guitar Hero version, the
difference was quite obvious even over the radio.

It was also mentioned here last week in the HY60 thread. So not much
research required. :-)
And Arny still hasn't told us which version he analyzed.

--
Eiron.

New page on LP cartridge measurements, etc
 

On Nov 30, 11:43*am, Eiron wrote:
David Looser wrote:
"MINe109" wrote in message
....

I've just learned from researching the controversy over the new
Metallica album that the Guitar Hero video game may also be an
alternative medium with better-sounding mastering.

That was mentioned on the "You & Yours" piece about this CD. An on-air
comparison was made between, the CD version and the Guitar Hero version, the
difference was quite obvious even over the radio.

It was also mentioned here last week in the HY60 thread. So not much
research required. :-)
And Arny still hasn't told us which version he analyzed.

Sorry, I'll increase my internet time to include discussions of amp
modules!

Arny also doesn't seem to understand the difference between "some" and
"all" cds and lps.

New page on LP cartridge measurements, etc
 

"MiNe 109" wrote in message

In article
, "Arny
Krueger" wrote:

"MiNe 109" wrote in message

I am not sure where you would 'gather' that. If the
source were clipped, then that could be expected to
have some effect on the LP when one was made using
such a clipped source. Hard to be more precise as the
clipped version might produce a burst of HF that the
LP cutting and replay distorts (or filters) further.

http://mastering-media.blogspot.com/...h-magnetic-vin
yl-sounds.html

The guy is not properly interpreting his own evidence.

The obviouis difference in the two traces shown in

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_VD9dKAsAE3...zAg_7llG8/s400
/Picture+2.png

is *not& due to digital clipping versus vinyl clipping
but rather it is due low frequency phase shift in the
LP version causing "tilt."

Such clipping as is shown was no doubt in the master
that both were cut from. The Vinyl version shows no less
clipping, rather the vinyl version was additionally
distorted by phase shift (linear distortion).


http://recforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/m/377851/0/

More specifically:

http://recforums.prosoundweb.com/ind.../0/#msg_377851
- 4/2007 post by Axon.


Same problem. There is obvious tilt, caused by low
frequency phase shift, whether from a high pass filter
or something else.

http://remring.com/index.php?option=...=770&Item id=
26

Interesting discussion about two LP/CD pairs of
recordings. One pair sound pretty much the same, the
other doesn't.

Includes:

"If you have access to Accelerate on vinyl, and any
halfway decent turntable, you can burn your own copy of
the vinyl onto CD either via a standalone CD recorder or
hooking your stereo up to your computer's sound card.
I've done that many a time with various LPs and, done
with care, it blows the released CD versions out of the
water - especially when the existing CD versions were
either mastered poorly or Loudness War victims."

IOW, there's nothing inherently wrong with the CD
medium, even though sometimes people abuse it and create
bad-sounding recordings.

Thanks for the comments. My non-technical understanding
was that cutting heads would round off those square tops.

That would show up in the leading edge, not the trailing edge.

New page on LP cartridge measurements, etc
 

In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

IOW, there's nothing inherently wrong with the CD
medium, even though sometimes people abuse it and create
bad-sounding recordings.

Thanks for the comments. My non-technical understanding
was that cutting heads would round off those square tops.

That would show up in the leading edge, not the trailing edge.

Yes, indeed. I don't know what's supposed to happen at the brick-walled
peak.

Stephen

New page on LP cartridge measurements, etc
 

In article , Arny
Krueger
wrote:
"MiNe 109" wrote in message

I am not sure where you would 'gather' that. If the source were
clipped, then that could be expected to have some effect on the LP
when one was made using such a clipped source. Hard to be more
precise as the clipped version might produce a burst of HF that the
LP cutting and replay distorts (or filters) further.

http://mastering-media.blogspot.com/...h-magnetic-vin
yl-sounds.html

The guy is not properly interpreting his own evidence.

The obviouis difference in the two traces shown in

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_VD9dKAsAE3.../Picture+2.png

is *not& due to digital clipping versus vinyl clipping but rather it is
due low frequency phase shift in the LP version causing "tilt."

Such clipping as is shown was no doubt in the master that both were cut
from. The Vinyl version shows no less clipping, rather the vinyl version
was additionally distorted by phase shift (linear distortion).

FWIW I've now had a chance to look at the page, and agree with the above.
To me also, the 'vinyl' version looks simply like that signal has been
passed though a high-pass filter. The shape is very like what I've seen for
years in undergrad lab experiments where I get students to estimate the
time constant of an RC HPF using a scope and squarewaves.

I can't read the timescales on the PNG but I'd suspect that either this is
because the CD signal nominally goes down to dc as it just plots the sample
pattern, but the 'vinyl' version has gone though HPF stages at some point.
Maybe this was during recording, or replay. Can't say - although I'd expect
LP replay to roll away from the order of 10Hz depending on the arm/cart/amp
combination.

So, yes, it looks like the 'vinyl' version also had flat top clipping
before it was put onto LP. But the result is then being modified by the
limited LF response of the LP system used (or by the way the person who
sampled the result for the webpage did the sampling!)


http://recforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/m/377851/0/

When I tried the above URL I got a server error so can't comment. I may try
the fuller URL you give below if I get time, but I won't rush as I suspect
I'd just agree again with what you write below. :-)

More specifically:

http://recforums.prosoundweb.com/ind.../0/#msg_377851 -
4/2007 post by Axon.


Same problem. There is obvious tilt, caused by low frequency phase
shift, whether from a high pass filter or something else.

Interesting that the page authors seem not to be aware of the effects of a
simple HPF. :-)

Slainte,

Jim

--
Change 'noise' to 'jcgl' if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

New page on LP cartridge measurements, etc
 

"MiNe 109" wrote in message

In article
, "Arny
Krueger" wrote:

IOW, there's nothing inherently wrong with the CD
medium, even though sometimes people abuse it and
create bad-sounding recordings.

Thanks for the comments. My non-technical understanding
was that cutting heads would round off those square
tops.

That would show up in the leading edge, not the trailing
edge.

Yes, indeed. I don't know what's supposed to happen at
the brick-walled peak.

Leading edge.

New page on LP cartridge measurements, etc
 

In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

"MiNe 109" wrote in message

In article
, "Arny
Krueger" wrote:

IOW, there's nothing inherently wrong with the CD
medium, even though sometimes people abuse it and
create bad-sounding recordings.

Thanks for the comments. My non-technical understanding
was that cutting heads would round off those square
tops.

That would show up in the leading edge, not the trailing
edge.

Yes, indeed. I don't know what's supposed to happen at
the brick-walled peak.

Leading edge.

Is this discussion on the right track?:

http://recforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/m/379726/0/

Especially the illustration to message #377599.

Stephen

New page on LP cartridge measurements, etc
 

"MiNe 109" wrote in message

In article
, "Arny
Krueger" wrote:

"MiNe 109" wrote in message

In article
, "Arny
Krueger" wrote:

IOW, there's nothing inherently wrong with the CD
medium, even though sometimes people abuse it and
create bad-sounding recordings.

Thanks for the comments. My non-technical
understanding was that cutting heads would round off
those square tops.

That would show up in the leading edge, not the
trailing edge.

Yes, indeed. I don't know what's supposed to happen at
the brick-walled peak.

Leading edge.

Is this discussion on the right track?:

http://recforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/m/379726/0/

I think this is the one I have criticized some parts, agreed with others.

Especially the illustration to message #377599.

Not really. That relates to RIAA filtering which is supposed to be
symmetrical with filtering that was added during recording. The two filters
are supposed to cancel out.

New page on LP cartridge measurements, etc
 

In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

"MiNe 109" wrote in message

In article
, "Arny
Krueger" wrote:

"MiNe 109" wrote in message

In article
, "Arny
Krueger" wrote:

IOW, there's nothing inherently wrong with the CD
medium, even though sometimes people abuse it and
create bad-sounding recordings.

Thanks for the comments. My non-technical
understanding was that cutting heads would round off
those square tops.

That would show up in the leading edge, not the
trailing edge.

Yes, indeed. I don't know what's supposed to happen at
the brick-walled peak.

Leading edge.

Is this discussion on the right track?:

http://recforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/m/379726/0/

I think this is the one I have criticized some parts, agreed with others.

Yes, it is. I was interested in the illustration.

Especially the illustration to message #377599.

Not really. That relates to RIAA filtering which is supposed to be
symmetrical with filtering that was added during recording. The two filters
are supposed to cancel out.

And the square wave reappears?

Stephen

New page on LP cartridge measurements, etc
 

"MiNe 109" wrote in message

In article
, "Arny
Krueger" wrote:

"MiNe 109" wrote in message

In article
, "Arny
Krueger" wrote:

"MiNe 109" wrote in
message

In article
, "Arny
Krueger" wrote:

IOW, there's nothing inherently wrong with the CD
medium, even though sometimes people abuse it and
create bad-sounding recordings.

Thanks for the comments. My non-technical
understanding was that cutting heads would round off
those square tops.

That would show up in the leading edge, not the
trailing edge.

Yes, indeed. I don't know what's supposed to happen at
the brick-walled peak.

Leading edge.

Is this discussion on the right track?:

http://recforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/m/379726/0/

I think this is the one I have criticized some parts,
agreed with others.

Yes, it is. I was interested in the illustration.

Especially the illustration to message #377599.

Not really. That relates to RIAA filtering which is
supposed to be symmetrical with filtering that was added
during recording. The two filters are supposed to cancel
out.

And the square wave reappears?

Ideally, yes.

The practical example of this is what happens when you use an inverse-RIAA
network (standard audio test bench component) to drive a RIAA phono preamp.
If the preamp is very accurate, the square waves that you put in, pretty
well come out of the UUT. Some rounding, and a little tilt in the real
world.