New page on LP cartridge measurements, etc
 

In article ,
tony sayer wrote:
Don't think anyone would deny that vinyl can sound good or give great
pleasure. It certainly did for me. The snag comes in when you get a
chance to compare it to the source.

Well...

Digital is very good except some types of radio;),

AM radio is poor too. Is that the fault of analogue?

but this was very impressive and I really thought it was a CD at first!.

Mind you it was tied up to some very, very good equipment for
replay:))..

Trouble is the intrinsic faults of vinyl can't be sorted by any
equipment. Although poor equipment can emphasise them.

There it falls over - whereas CD doesn't.
Of course if you are used to the sound of a favourite piece on vinyl, it
could well be the true(r) sound of the source is a disappointment -
especially with jazz brass etc where a bit of extra 'zing' can excite.

No, this was a piece I've never heard before....

Indeed. No doubt specially chosen to show off the equipment at its best.
Rather like the demonstration DVDs etc they show in TV shops. I like to
hear a recording I know well when evaluating new equipment.

--
*Procrastinate now

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

New page on LP cartridge measurements, etc
 

In article ,
Jim Lesurf wrote:

In article , MiNe 109
wrote:
In article , "David Looser"
wrote:


The recent Mudcrutch (Tom Petty's band) lp album featured less
compression and came packaged with a cd of the lp mastering.

My reaction to that is similar to David's. That it is hardly considerate to
expect people to buy an extra LP if they just want less level compression
on the CD they wish to play. Of course, if the LP is free and the LP+CD
package costs the same as the CD alone then the only deterrent is knowing
you have the choice and having space to store the unwanted version.

Given the cynical and unimpressive thinking behind the way the industry
operate, though, it would not surprise me if the result was taken to give
an 'indicator' sic that if fewer people buy the LP+CD combination that
most people 'prefer' more level compression.

The cd was marketed as a bonus to the lp set.

I gather that lps can't reproduce digital clipping, so they may well
sound less harsh (though possibly less dynamic) than the equivalent cds.

I am not sure where you would 'gather' that. If the source were clipped,
then that could be expected to have some effect on the LP when one was made
using such a clipped source. Hard to be more precise as the clipped version
might produce a burst of HF that the LP cutting and replay distorts (or
filters) further.

http://mastering-media.blogspot.com/...h-magnetic-vin
yl-sounds.html

http://recforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/m/377851/0/

http://remring.com/index.php?option=...=770&Item id=
26

Too busy to quote right now, but I will later if you want me to.

Stephen

New page on LP cartridge measurements, etc
 

"MiNe 109" wrote in message

I am not sure where you would 'gather' that. If the
source were clipped, then that could be expected to have
some effect on the LP when one was made using such a
clipped source. Hard to be more precise as the clipped
version might produce a burst of HF that the LP cutting
and replay distorts (or filters) further.

http://mastering-media.blogspot.com/...h-magnetic-vin
yl-sounds.html

The guy is not properly interpreting his own evidence.

The obviouis difference in the two traces shown in

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_VD9dKAsAE3.../Picture+2.png

is *not& due to digital clipping versus vinyl clipping but rather it is due
low frequency phase shift in the LP version causing "tilt."

Such clipping as is shown was no doubt in the master that both were cut
from. The Vinyl version shows no less clipping, rather the vinyl version was
additionally distorted by phase shift (linear distortion).


http://recforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/m/377851/0/

More specifically:

http://recforums.prosoundweb.com/ind.../0/#msg_377851 - 4/2007
post by Axon.


Same problem. There is obvious tilt, caused by low frequency phase shift,
whether from a high pass filter or something else.

http://remring.com/index.php?option=...=770&Item id=
26

Interesting discussion about two LP/CD pairs of recordings. One pair sound
pretty much the same, the other doesn't.

Includes:

"If you have access to Accelerate on vinyl, and any halfway decent
turntable, you can burn your own copy of the vinyl onto CD either via a
standalone CD recorder or hooking your stereo up to your computer's sound
card. I've done that many a time with various LPs and, done with care, it
blows the released CD versions out of the water - especially when the
existing CD versions were either mastered poorly or Loudness War victims."

IOW, there's nothing inherently wrong with the CD medium, even though
sometimes people abuse it and create bad-sounding recordings.


Too busy to quote right now, but I will later if you want
me to.

Stephen

New page on LP cartridge measurements, etc
 

In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

"MiNe 109" wrote in message

I am not sure where you would 'gather' that. If the
source were clipped, then that could be expected to have
some effect on the LP when one was made using such a
clipped source. Hard to be more precise as the clipped
version might produce a burst of HF that the LP cutting
and replay distorts (or filters) further.

http://mastering-media.blogspot.com/...h-magnetic-vin
yl-sounds.html

The guy is not properly interpreting his own evidence.

The obviouis difference in the two traces shown in

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_VD9dKAsAE3...zAg_7llG8/s400
/Picture+2.png

is *not& due to digital clipping versus vinyl clipping but rather it is due
low frequency phase shift in the LP version causing "tilt."

Such clipping as is shown was no doubt in the master that both were cut
from. The Vinyl version shows no less clipping, rather the vinyl version was
additionally distorted by phase shift (linear distortion).


http://recforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/m/377851/0/

More specifically:

http://recforums.prosoundweb.com/ind.../0/#msg_377851 - 4/2007
post by Axon.


Same problem. There is obvious tilt, caused by low frequency phase shift,
whether from a high pass filter or something else.

http://remring.com/index.php?option=...=770&Item id=
26

Interesting discussion about two LP/CD pairs of recordings. One pair sound
pretty much the same, the other doesn't.

Includes:

"If you have access to Accelerate on vinyl, and any halfway decent
turntable, you can burn your own copy of the vinyl onto CD either via a
standalone CD recorder or hooking your stereo up to your computer's sound
card. I've done that many a time with various LPs and, done with care, it
blows the released CD versions out of the water - especially when the
existing CD versions were either mastered poorly or Loudness War victims."

IOW, there's nothing inherently wrong with the CD medium, even though
sometimes people abuse it and create bad-sounding recordings.

Thanks for the comments. My non-technical understanding was that cutting
heads would round off those square tops.

Stephen

New page on LP cartridge measurements, etc
 

In article , MiNe 109
wrote:
In article , "Arny
Krueger" wrote:


IOW, there's nothing inherently wrong with the CD medium, even though
sometimes people abuse it and create bad-sounding recordings.

Thanks for the comments. My non-technical understanding was that cutting
heads would round off those square tops.

I've not yet read the pages you referenced for myself, but judging by what
you now say, and what Arny reports, the problem was that your previous
wording was ambiguous/inaccurate as a result of being mislead by those
pages.

A CD player that is working correctly will also "round off those square
tops" as it should have a post DAC (or equivalent) reconstruction filter.

The distinction is that the CD player will simply remove any artifact
components above 22 kHz. Whereas LP recording and replay will tend to apply
either intermodulation nonlinearity or simply mistrack. Thus the LP could
just as easily generate 'new' distortion products as remove some of those
inherent in the recording itself.

Indeed - as I've pointed out elsewhere - a LPCM recording of a waveform
that goes out of range can sometimes actually be correctly recovered
despite the nominal clipping. Depends on the details, and on the player
working as required by information theory. In practice, alas, with serious
clipping this is normally unlikely to save the music from being corrupted
as information will have been lost and the recorded data distorted.

The results might then sound 'different'. But this would not tell you that
LP was 'better'.

Either way...

The correct solution IMHO is for the dimwits who decide to make clipped
or excessively compressed recordings to be replaced by other people who
have a clue and care more about producing decent results. This isn't a
matter of engineering per se, but of employing the right people and
allowing them to work correctly. Thus displacing any 'gurus' who "know how
to make recordings that sell by the infantile method of making them BLOODY
LOUD" and who may then dumbly do this at every opportunity. If they are
either incapable of telling the result is clipped, or don't care, then
they may be better off in another job.

Slainte,

Jim

[1] To be fair, the blame here should be on those who make the decision.
Not with those who then do as told. Apart from giving a warning, perhaps,
not their job to tell the client he is an idiot. :-)

--
Change 'noise' to 'jcgl' if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

New page on LP cartridge measurements, etc
 

In article , Dave Plowman (News)
scribeth thus
In article ,
tony sayer wrote:
Don't think anyone would deny that vinyl can sound good or give great
pleasure. It certainly did for me. The snag comes in when you get a
chance to compare it to the source.

Well...

Digital is very good except some types of radio;),

AM radio is poor too. Is that the fault of analogue?

Nope its fine in parts of Australia its what the power that be do to it
as you should know;)..

but this was very impressive and I really thought it was a CD at first!.

Mind you it was tied up to some very, very good equipment for
replay:))..

Trouble is the intrinsic faults of vinyl can't be sorted by any
equipment. Although poor equipment can emphasise them.

Yes .. I wasn't saying they weren't;!..


There it falls over - whereas CD doesn't.
Of course if you are used to the sound of a favourite piece on vinyl, it
could well be the true(r) sound of the source is a disappointment -
especially with jazz brass etc where a bit of extra 'zing' can excite.

No, this was a piece I've never heard before....

Indeed. No doubt specially chosen to show off the equipment at its best.
Rather like the demonstration DVDs etc they show in TV shops. I like to
hear a recording I know well when evaluating new equipment.


No not at all, this was Derrick Scotland's own personal collection he
was a tad fussy about what was in there. And one of the finest engineers
I've ever had the experience to work with:)...
--
Tony Sayer

New page on LP cartridge measurements, etc
 

"tony sayer" wrote in message
...
In article , Dave Plowman (News)
scribeth thus

AM radio is poor too. Is that the fault of analogue?

Nope its fine in parts of Australia its what the power that be do to it
as you should know;)..


Yes, in small town Australia hundreds of miles from anywhere - it's pretty
well useless anywhere else! And the problem with it is not what the "powers
that be" do, AM on LW, MW, or SW is intrinsically incapable of providing
high-quality reception in anything approaching modern conditions.

David.

New page on LP cartridge measurements, etc
 

In article , David Looser
scribeth thus
"tony sayer" wrote in message
...
In article , Dave Plowman (News)
scribeth thus

AM radio is poor too. Is that the fault of analogue?

Nope its fine in parts of Australia its what the power that be do to it
as you should know;)..


Yes, in small town Australia hundreds of miles from anywhere - it's pretty
well useless anywhere else! And the problem with it is not what the "powers
that be" do, AM on LW, MW, or SW is intrinsically incapable of providing
high-quality reception in anything approaching modern conditions.

David.



It did work quite well on 405 line TV;!...

I can just see a reply coming;)..









************************************What do you know you feckwit pommie
arse etc!****


--
*****************************fony Sayer

New page on LP cartridge measurements, etc
 

"tony sayer" wrote in message
...
In article , David Looser
scribeth thus
"tony sayer" wrote in message
...
In article , Dave Plowman (News)
scribeth thus

AM radio is poor too. Is that the fault of analogue?

Nope its fine in parts of Australia its what the power that be do to it
as you should know;)..


Yes, in small town Australia hundreds of miles from anywhere - it's pretty
well useless anywhere else! And the problem with it is not what the
"powers
that be" do, AM on LW, MW, or SW is intrinsically incapable of providing
high-quality reception in anything approaching modern conditions.

David.



It did work quite well on 405 line TV;!...


Did it?, apart from being very susceptible to ignition interference, it was
also very prone to problems with vision buzz. It required a separate sound
IF strip, whereas FM sound could use the much simpler intercarrier system
and still turn in a better performance in terms of vision buzz than AM.


I can just see a reply coming;)..

How perspicacious you are :-)

David.

New page on LP cartridge measurements, etc
 

In article ,
tony sayer wrote:
In article , Dave Plowman (News)
scribeth thus
In article ,
tony sayer wrote:
Don't think anyone would deny that vinyl can sound good or give great
pleasure. It certainly did for me. The snag comes in when you get a
chance to compare it to the source.

Well...

Digital is very good except some types of radio;),

AM radio is poor too. Is that the fault of analogue?

Nope its fine in parts of Australia its what the power that be do to it
as you should know;)..

QED.

but this was very impressive and I really thought it was a CD at
first!.

Mind you it was tied up to some very, very good equipment for
replay:))..

Trouble is the intrinsic faults of vinyl can't be sorted by any
equipment. Although poor equipment can emphasise them.

Yes .. I wasn't saying they weren't;!..

Perhaps you would say what you meant by it, then?


There it falls over - whereas CD doesn't. Of course if you are used
to the sound of a favourite piece on vinyl, it could well be the
true(r) sound of the source is a disappointment - especially with
jazz brass etc where a bit of extra 'zing' can excite.

No, this was a piece I've never heard before....

Indeed. No doubt specially chosen to show off the equipment at its
best. Rather like the demonstration DVDs etc they show in TV shops. I
like to hear a recording I know well when evaluating new equipment.


No not at all, this was Derrick Scotland's own personal collection he
was a tad fussy about what was in there.

Indeed. Only keeping or buying vinyl where the shortcomings weren't so
obvious.

And one of the finest engineers I've ever had the experience to work
with:)...

But a tad quirky if still wasting his time with vinyl? Everything that
could be done with it has already been done.

--
*Verbs HAS to agree with their subjects *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.