New page on LP cartridge measurements, etc
 

In article ,
tony sayer wrote:
Yes, in small town Australia hundreds of miles from anywhere - it's
pretty well useless anywhere else! And the problem with it is not what
the "powers that be" do, AM on LW, MW, or SW is intrinsically
incapable of providing high-quality reception in anything approaching
modern conditions.

It did work quite well on 405 line TV;!...

I can just see a reply coming;)..

Pretty well every receiver was band limited to remove the 10k line
whistle. Not that many TV sets had speakers that went up that far anyway.

--
*If a pig loses its voice, is it disgruntled?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

New page on LP cartridge measurements, etc
 

In article , David Looser
scribeth thus
"tony sayer" wrote in message
...
In article , David Looser
scribeth thus
"tony sayer" wrote in message
...
In article , Dave Plowman (News)
scribeth thus

AM radio is poor too. Is that the fault of analogue?

Nope its fine in parts of Australia its what the power that be do to it
as you should know;)..


Yes, in small town Australia hundreds of miles from anywhere - it's pretty
well useless anywhere else! And the problem with it is not what the
"powers
that be" do, AM on LW, MW, or SW is intrinsically incapable of providing
high-quality reception in anything approaching modern conditions.

David.



It did work quite well on 405 line TV;!...


Did it?, apart from being very susceptible to ignition interference, it was
also very prone to problems with vision buzz. It required a separate sound
IF strip, whereas FM sound could use the much simpler intercarrier system
and still turn in a better performance in terms of vision buzz than AM.



As someone who spent many years in domestic TV at that time I can tell
you that 625 line intercarrier buzz was a very big problem for the
majority of UK sets, but never seem to have had any problems with 405
line ones apart from the old line whistle;)..

I can just see a reply coming;)..

How perspicacious you are :-)

David.



--
Tony Sayer

New page on LP cartridge measurements, etc
 

In article , Dave Plowman (News)
scribeth thus
In article ,
tony sayer wrote:
Yes, in small town Australia hundreds of miles from anywhere - it's
pretty well useless anywhere else! And the problem with it is not what
the "powers that be" do, AM on LW, MW, or SW is intrinsically
incapable of providing high-quality reception in anything approaching
modern conditions.

It did work quite well on 405 line TV;!...

I can just see a reply coming;)..

Pretty well every receiver was band limited to remove the 10k line
whistle. Not that many TV sets had speakers that went up that far anyway.


No the built in speakers were usually awful apart from one or two
notable exceptions, but using external amps and speakers it was
champion;)..
--
Tony Sayer

New page on LP cartridge measurements, etc
 

In article , Dave Plowman (News)
scribeth thus
In article ,
tony sayer wrote:
In article , Dave Plowman (News)
scribeth thus
In article ,
tony sayer wrote:
Don't think anyone would deny that vinyl can sound good or give great
pleasure. It certainly did for me. The snag comes in when you get a
chance to compare it to the source.

Well...

Digital is very good except some types of radio;),

AM radio is poor too. Is that the fault of analogue?

Nope its fine in parts of Australia its what the power that be do to it
as you should know;)..

QED.

but this was very impressive and I really thought it was a CD at
first!.

Mind you it was tied up to some very, very good equipment for
replay:))..

Trouble is the intrinsic faults of vinyl can't be sorted by any
equipment. Although poor equipment can emphasise them.

Yes .. I wasn't saying they weren't;!..

Perhaps you would say what you meant by it, then?


There it falls over - whereas CD doesn't. Of course if you are used
to the sound of a favourite piece on vinyl, it could well be the
true(r) sound of the source is a disappointment - especially with
jazz brass etc where a bit of extra 'zing' can excite.

No, this was a piece I've never heard before....

Indeed. No doubt specially chosen to show off the equipment at its
best. Rather like the demonstration DVDs etc they show in TV shops. I
like to hear a recording I know well when evaluating new equipment.


No not at all, this was Derrick Scotland's own personal collection he
was a tad fussy about what was in there.

Indeed. Only keeping or buying vinyl where the shortcomings weren't so
obvious.

And one of the finest engineers I've ever had the experience to work
with:)...

But a tad quirky if still wasting his time with vinyl? Everything that
could be done with it has already been done.



Well originally I was only telling all of what I heard at the time which
was as said surprisingly good. Of course for most all applications CD is
better but when done right it, disc, was very capable..

At that time early 80's there seemed to be quite a demand for disc
inputs on amps of which the 8000 series had a very good MM and MC
section, which I've removed in the ones I've got cos of the amount of
heat they knock out;!..
--
Tony Sayer

New page on LP cartridge measurements, etc
 

"tony sayer" wrote in message
...

As someone who spent many years in domestic TV at that time I can tell
you that 625 line intercarrier buzz was a very big problem for the
majority of UK sets, but never seem to have had any problems with 405
line ones apart from the old line whistle;)..


As someone else who has spent many years working with domestic TV I have to
say that I entirely disagree with you. You won't, of course, get
*intercarrier* buzz from 405 line sets, the intercarrier was at 3.5MHz (not
many of us can hear that high :-), but vision-on-sound was always a major
problem, plenty of articles about it appeared in "Practical Television". Of
course it competed with other sources of hum and buzz in the sound channel,
such as mains hum and frame buzz, but it was always present. By contrast FM
sound was *potentially* far better, if it hadn't been for the bean counters.
The split inter-carrier system that really only started to appear in
domestic TVs after NICAM arrived could provide an entirely buzz free
performance from FM.

Methinks you are viewing 405-line TV sound through rose-tinted spectacles.

David.

New page on LP cartridge measurements, etc
 

"tony sayer" wrote in message
...
In article , Dave Plowman (News)
scribeth thus

Pretty well every receiver was band limited to remove the 10k line
whistle. Not that many TV sets had speakers that went up that far anyway.


No the built in speakers were usually awful apart from one or two
notable exceptions, but using external amps and speakers it was
champion;)..
--

Words fail me!

The internal audio amps were also usually awful, but connecting external
amps wasn't easy, not only because of the almost universal live-chassis
arangement, but also because the circuitry around the audio detector/impulse
interference limiter/volume control/audio amp operated at high impedance and
was designed to work as a complete system (and at lowest possible cost).
Connecting additional capacitive or resistive loads would upset the
time-constants and/or load down the limiter. And you'd still have that
vision-on-sound problem.

The transmitted bandwidth was only 10k anyway.

David.

New page on LP cartridge measurements, etc
 

In article ,
tony sayer wrote:
As someone who spent many years in domestic TV at that time I can tell
you that 625 line intercarrier buzz was a very big problem for the
majority of UK sets, but never seem to have had any problems with 405
line ones apart from the old line whistle;)..

All down to crappy design. No TV set maker spent a penny on the sound side
where a halfpenny would do. Exactly the same as today.

My first colour set was a Philips G6 where they'd gone to extraordinary
lengths with the design, picture wise. And left the sound to the office
boy.

An emitter follower after the black level clamp all but eliminated the
buzz - and the addition of a buffer amp with line isolating transformer
provided a low level output to send to the Hi-Fi - there was no point in
bothering with the SET valve amp and 4" loudspeaker.

--
*Gargling is a good way to see if your throat leaks.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

New page on LP cartridge measurements, etc
 

On Nov 30, 3:22*am, Jim Lesurf wrote:
In article , MiNe 109 *

wrote:
In article , "Arny
*Krueger" wrote:

IOW, there's nothing inherently wrong with the CD medium, even though
sometimes people abuse it and create bad-sounding recordings.
Thanks for the comments. My non-technical understanding was that cutting
heads would round off those square tops.

I've not yet read the pages you referenced for myself, but judging by what
you now say, and what Arny reports, the problem was that your previous
wording was ambiguous/inaccurate as a result of being mislead by those
pages.

A CD player that is working correctly will also "round off those square
tops" as it should have a post DAC (or equivalent) reconstruction filter.

The distinction is that the CD player will simply remove any artifact
components above 22 kHz. Whereas LP recording and replay will tend to apply
either intermodulation nonlinearity or simply mistrack. Thus the LP could
just as easily generate 'new' distortion products as remove some of those
inherent in the recording itself.

Indeed - as I've pointed out elsewhere - a LPCM recording of a waveform
that goes out of range can sometimes actually be correctly recovered
despite the nominal clipping. Depends on the details, and on the player
working as required by information theory. In practice, alas, with serious
clipping this is normally unlikely to save the music from being corrupted
as information will have been lost and the recorded data distorted.

The results might then sound 'different'. But this would not tell you that
LP was 'better'.

That's not my argument. As a practical matter, some lp versions of
content only otherwise available on brick-walled cds are better
sounding because tracking ability limits are respected and/or the
mastering engineers are given freer hand to do the job right.

I do hope you have time to follow my links. Unfortunately, I can't
find the source I recalled with the case I was trying to make.

Either way...

The correct solution IMHO is for the dimwits who decide to make clipped
or excessively compressed recordings to be replaced by other people who
have a clue and care more about producing decent results. This isn't a
matter of engineering per se, but of employing the right people and
allowing them to work correctly. Thus displacing any 'gurus' who "know how
to make recordings that sell by the infantile method of making them BLOODY
LOUD" and who may then dumbly do this at every opportunity. If they are
either incapable of telling the result is clipped, or don't care, then
they may be better off in another job.

Slainte,

Jim

[1] To be fair, the blame here should be on those who make the decision.
Not with those who then do as told. Apart from giving a warning, perhaps,
not their job to tell the client he is an idiot. *:-)

I've just learned from researching the controversy over the new
Metallica album that the Guitar Hero video game may also be an
alternative medium with better-sounding mastering.

Stephen

New page on LP cartridge measurements, etc
 

In article ,
David Looser wrote:
The transmitted bandwidth was only 10k anyway.

Not even that high in many parts of the country.

Oh - in 405 line days the standard BBC TV microphone was the STC 4033
which had a poor HF response anyway. They even used Reslo ribbons for some
things. ;-)

--
*It's lonely at the top, but you eat better.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

New page on LP cartridge measurements, etc
 

"MINe109" wrote in message
...

I've just learned from researching the controversy over the new
Metallica album that the Guitar Hero video game may also be an
alternative medium with better-sounding mastering.

That was mentioned on the "You & Yours" piece about this CD. An on-air
comparison was made between, the CD version and the Guitar Hero version, the
difference was quite obvious even over the radio.

David.