"David Nebenzahl" wrote in message
s.com...
On 2/4/2009 10:49 AM John Williamson spake thus:


I've heard it a number of times over the years on first play of a vinyl
record, on both 33 and 45 rpm discs, and the pre-echo has always been
*exactly* one revolution ahead of the peak, both on the lead-in and
between tracks or in quiet passages. I'd put it down as an artifact of
either the material of the master deforming slightly while being cut, or
distortion of the plastic while the hot record was cooling after coming
out of the mould. Unless, of course, the feed reel on the tape deck being
used just happened to rotate at the same speed as the turntable.

The latter is much more likely. Can't see how the vinyl could deform that
much and still retain an accurate image from the mold.


I've met that as well, pre-echo exactly one revolution of the disc ahead. It
would seem to be a remarkable co-incidence if all tape spools revolve at
exactly 33 1/3rd rpm! I'm not sure that the fact that you don't understand
the process is important.

David.

"David Nebenzahl" wrote in message
s.com

I've heard it a number of times over the years on first
play of a vinyl record, on both 33 and 45 rpm discs, and
the pre-echo has always been *exactly* one revolution
ahead of the peak, both on the lead-in and between
tracks or in quiet passages. I'd put it down as an
artifact of either the material of the master deforming
slightly while being cut, or distortion of the plastic
while the hot record was cooling after coming out of the
mould.

The former being the most likely. Remember that when hot plastic is being
deformed to create grooves, it is being supported by the die. When the
lacquer is being cut, the previous groove is not being supported by anything
but air.

Unless, of course, the feed reel on the tape deck
being used just happened to rotate at the same speed as
the turntable.

Unlikely.

The latter is much more likely. Can't see how the vinyl
could deform that much and still retain an accurate image
from the mold.

Heat and pressure backed up by solid metal can really work! ;-)

"David Nebenzahl" wrote in message
s.com...
On 2/4/2009 10:49 AM John Williamson spake thus:

David Nebenzahl wrote:

On 2/4/2009 9:10 AM Brian Gaff spake thus:

The worst I've encountered is the very audible signal from the adjacent
turn so to speak.
I wonder what your sample had been played on though.

What you're describing has nothing to do with vinyl; you're talking
about "print-through", which is an artifact of the tape mastering
machine feeding the cutter, where you can hear signals from adjacent
lengths of tape.

I've heard it a number of times over the years on first play of a vinyl
record, on both 33 and 45 rpm discs, and the pre-echo has always been
*exactly* one revolution ahead of the peak, both on the lead-in and
between tracks or in quiet passages. I'd put it down as an artifact of
either the material of the master deforming slightly while being cut, or
distortion of the plastic while the hot record was cooling after coming
out of the mould. Unless, of course, the feed reel on the tape deck being
used just happened to rotate at the same speed as the turntable.

The latter is much more likely. Can't see how the vinyl could deform that
much and still retain an accurate image from the mold.


Well actually, its the master acetate that deforms. This is carried
through to matrix, and stanpers to the vinyl pressing.

Tape pre-echo can be easily eliminated by leadering up tight to the start
of the music.

Iain

Its not always the tape though. You can on one particular LP my mother had
by Frank Sinatra, hear the tape hiss come in just before the start of the
sound, but one turn prior to that, you can hear the sound as well. Its far
too much of a coincidence it would be one turn as well.
I cannot play these games any more unfortunately.
I have to use a Technics sl5 with an Ortofon Cart these days. Its showing
signs of the dreaded sticky lubricant as well. Needs its arm serviced.

Brian

--
Brian Gaff -
Note:- In order to reduce spam, any email without 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name may be lost.
Blind user, so no pictures please!
"David Nebenzahl" wrote in message
s.com...
On 2/4/2009 9:10 AM Brian Gaff spake thus:

The worst I've encountered is the very audible signal from the adjacent
turn so to speak.
I wonder what your sample had been played on though.

What you're describing has nothing to do with vinyl; you're talking about
"print-through", which is an artifact of the tape mastering machine
feeding the cutter, where you can hear signals from adjacent lengths of
tape.


--
Personally, I like Vista, but I probably won't use it. I like it
because it generates considerable business for me in consulting and
upgrades. As long as there is hardware and software out there that
doesn't work, I stay in business. Incidentally, my company motto is
"If this stuff worked, you wouldn't need me".

- lifted from sci.electronics.repair

On 2/5/2009 11:57 AM Brian Gaff spake thus:

Its not always the tape though. You can on one particular LP my mother had
by Frank Sinatra, hear the tape hiss come in just before the start of the
sound, but one turn prior to that, you can hear the sound as well. Its far
too much of a coincidence it would be one turn as well.
I cannot play these games any more unfortunately.
I have to use a Technics sl5 with an Ortofon Cart these days. Its showing
signs of the dreaded sticky lubricant as well. Needs its arm serviced.

Can't fix it with a couple spritzes of contact cleaner judiciously applied?


--
Personally, I like Vista, but I probably won't use it. I like it
because it generates considerable business for me in consulting and
upgrades. As long as there is hardware and software out there that
doesn't work, I stay in business. Incidentally, my company motto is
"If this stuff worked, you wouldn't need me".

- lifted from sci.electronics.repair

In article m,
David Nebenzahl wrote:
On 2/4/2009 9:10 AM Brian Gaff spake thus:

The worst I've encountered is the very audible signal from the
adjacent turn so to speak. I wonder what your sample had been played
on though.

What you're describing has nothing to do with vinyl; you're talking
about "print-through", which is an artifact of the tape mastering
machine feeding the cutter, where you can hear signals from adjacent
lengths of tape.

Dunno about the record industry but I would edit in leader tape to
remove any from the start of a track.

--
*A 'jiffy' is an actual unit of time for 1/100th of a second.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article m,
David Nebenzahl wrote:
On 2/4/2009 9:10 AM Brian Gaff spake thus:

The worst I've encountered is the very audible signal from the
adjacent turn so to speak. I wonder what your sample had been played
on though.

What you're describing has nothing to do with vinyl; you're talking
about "print-through", which is an artifact of the tape mastering
machine feeding the cutter, where you can hear signals from adjacent
lengths of tape.

Dunno about the record industry but I would edit in leader tape to
remove any from the start of a track.

I think that was normal practice everywhere, except for places
that used the same tapes over and over again, but their material
was unlikely to go for cutting anyway.

Iain

I was interested in how heavily modulated vinyl could be, so I popped
an old record (Long Hot Summer Night, Jimi Hendrix, Track Records
1968) under the microscope for a look. And what did I find? Two
adjacent grooves clearly broken into each other:

http://81.174.169.10/odds/grooves.jpg

Was this a really common back then, or is this kind of thing a rarity?

Poor quality control from U.S. record suppliers was a large part of
what led me to pretty much stop buying vinyl back in the 1980s.

I became disgusted with the frequent need to return brand-new albums
to the store (often more than once!) in order to get a copy which did
not have objectionable pressing defects.

My impression was that the causes of problems were several-fold:

- Cutting the master with too much modulation (such as the case
you've noticed). This didn't seem to happen too often, but it
did happen sometimes, and was not limited to U.S. pressings (I got
one from Island U.K. which was cut so hot that it was almost
impossible for even a good cartidge to track).

- Poor-quality vinyl stock. This became a really serious issue
during the OPEC oil embargo in the 1970s, as the price of "virgin"
vinyl soared, and most record-makers started using an increasingly
large amount of "regrind" from recycled-and-shredded LPs in their
vinyl mix. I once got a copy of Mike Oldfield's "Hergest Ridge" LP
which had a chunk of paper sticking up out of the groove... they'd
clearly re-ground at least one record into the vat without removing
the entire label area properly :-)

I don't think that the vinyl quality of U.S. mainstream LPs ever
fully recovered after the embargo ended.

- High levels of noise in the groove, which I suspect was due to a
combination of worn stampers and too-fast pressing cycle times
(inadequate time for the hot vinyl to fill the grooves and solidify
properly).

- Scuffs, dirt, and dust from poor handling during manufacture.

I have a feeling that the high cutting levels of some U.S. pressings
may have been in part an attempt to reduce the impact of the noisy
vinyl.

For quite some time, I bought almost all of the music I liked on
imported pressings. European pressing plants, and (especially!)
Japanese ones, were turning out pressings that were quieter and
sounded much better than the U.S. equivalents. It was worth it to me
to pay an extra dollar or three for an import copy of an album I
really wanted, and I dealt with an importer (Greenworld / Paradox in
Torrance, CA) which carried 'em.

Unfortunately, the RIAA and the U.S. labels made a stink about these
"parallel" imports, claiming that the importing of same was an
infringement of the labels' exclusive U.S. license to distribute many
titles. The U.S. government cracked down (I understand that Customs
started seizing shipments), and it became essentially impossible to to
buy an out-of-country pressing of any title which was licensed to a
U.S. label.

I was quite unhappy with the situation and stopped buying music
almost entirely... didn't start again until several years into the CD
era.

--
Dave Platt AE6EO
Friends of Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior
I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will
boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads!

"Dave Platt" wrote in message
...

Poor quality control from U.S. record suppliers was a large part of
what led me to pretty much stop buying vinyl back in the 1980s.

snip

I was quite unhappy with the situation and stopped buying music
almost entirely... didn't start again until several years into the CD
era.

--
Pretty much my experience, except that I was in the UK.

After the crap that was sold as LPs, CDs were a revelation. Not only no
clicks, pops, crackle, whooshes and thumps (all pressed into the vinyl, not
due to poor handling) but significantly less distortion and a clearer, more
listenable sound. The added bonuses were the end of spending time with a
cleaning brush and having to be so careful with the pick-up, plus the
smaller size and the longer uninterrupted playing time.

Why *anyone* still wants to mess with vinyl is totally beyond me.

David.

David Looser wrote:

Why *anyone* still wants to mess with vinyl is totally beyond me.

* some things are only available on vinyl (or shellac)
* playing records can be more fun
* record players can be beautiful to look at
* records smell nice and have bigger sleeves

Daniele