On 2/4/2009 9:10 AM Brian Gaff spake thus:

The worst I've encountered is the very audible signal from the adjacent turn
so to speak.
I wonder what your sample had been played on though.

What you're describing has nothing to do with vinyl; you're talking
about "print-through", which is an artifact of the tape mastering
machine feeding the cutter, where you can hear signals from adjacent
lengths of tape.


--
Personally, I like Vista, but I probably won't use it. I like it
because it generates considerable business for me in consulting and
upgrades. As long as there is hardware and software out there that
doesn't work, I stay in business. Incidentally, my company motto is
"If this stuff worked, you wouldn't need me".

- lifted from sci.electronics.repair

David Nebenzahl wrote:
On 2/4/2009 9:10 AM Brian Gaff spake thus:

The worst I've encountered is the very audible signal from the
adjacent turn so to speak.
I wonder what your sample had been played on though.

What you're describing has nothing to do with vinyl; you're talking
about "print-through", which is an artifact of the tape mastering
machine feeding the cutter, where you can hear signals from adjacent
lengths of tape.

I've heard it a number of times over the years on first play of a vinyl
record, on both 33 and 45 rpm discs, and the pre-echo has always been
*exactly* one revolution ahead of the peak, both on the lead-in and
between tracks or in quiet passages. I'd put it down as an artifact of
either the material of the master deforming slightly while being cut, or
distortion of the plastic while the hot record was cooling after coming
out of the mould. Unless, of course, the feed reel on the tape deck
being used just happened to rotate at the same speed as the turntable.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

On 2/4/2009 10:49 AM John Williamson spake thus:

David Nebenzahl wrote:

On 2/4/2009 9:10 AM Brian Gaff spake thus:

The worst I've encountered is the very audible signal from the
adjacent turn so to speak.
I wonder what your sample had been played on though.

What you're describing has nothing to do with vinyl; you're talking
about "print-through", which is an artifact of the tape mastering
machine feeding the cutter, where you can hear signals from adjacent
lengths of tape.

I've heard it a number of times over the years on first play of a vinyl
record, on both 33 and 45 rpm discs, and the pre-echo has always been
*exactly* one revolution ahead of the peak, both on the lead-in and
between tracks or in quiet passages. I'd put it down as an artifact of
either the material of the master deforming slightly while being cut, or
distortion of the plastic while the hot record was cooling after coming
out of the mould. Unless, of course, the feed reel on the tape deck
being used just happened to rotate at the same speed as the turntable.

The latter is much more likely. Can't see how the vinyl could deform
that much and still retain an accurate image from the mold.


--
Personally, I like Vista, but I probably won't use it. I like it
because it generates considerable business for me in consulting and
upgrades. As long as there is hardware and software out there that
doesn't work, I stay in business. Incidentally, my company motto is
"If this stuff worked, you wouldn't need me".

- lifted from sci.electronics.repair

"David Nebenzahl" wrote in message
s.com...
On 2/4/2009 10:49 AM John Williamson spake thus:


I've heard it a number of times over the years on first play of a vinyl
record, on both 33 and 45 rpm discs, and the pre-echo has always been
*exactly* one revolution ahead of the peak, both on the lead-in and
between tracks or in quiet passages. I'd put it down as an artifact of
either the material of the master deforming slightly while being cut, or
distortion of the plastic while the hot record was cooling after coming
out of the mould. Unless, of course, the feed reel on the tape deck being
used just happened to rotate at the same speed as the turntable.

The latter is much more likely. Can't see how the vinyl could deform that
much and still retain an accurate image from the mold.


I've met that as well, pre-echo exactly one revolution of the disc ahead. It
would seem to be a remarkable co-incidence if all tape spools revolve at
exactly 33 1/3rd rpm! I'm not sure that the fact that you don't understand
the process is important.

David.

In article ,
David Looser wrote:

I've heard it a number of times over the years on first play of a vinyl
record, on both 33 and 45 rpm discs, and the pre-echo has always been
*exactly* one revolution ahead of the peak, both on the lead-in and
between tracks or in quiet passages. I'd put it down as an artifact of
either the material of the master deforming slightly while being cut, or
distortion of the plastic while the hot record was cooling after coming
out of the mould. Unless, of course, the feed reel on the tape deck being
used just happened to rotate at the same speed as the turntable.

The latter is much more likely. Can't see how the vinyl could deform that
much and still retain an accurate image from the mold.


I've met that as well, pre-echo exactly one revolution of the disc ahead. It
would seem to be a remarkable co-incidence if all tape spools revolve at
exactly 33 1/3rd rpm! I'm not sure that the fact that you don't understand
the process is important.

I've read that this sort of LP pre-echo can occur as a result of the
original lacquer-cutting process during the making of the master. The
cutting stylus cannot do a perfect, side-effect-free job of cutting
the groove - that is, it cannot magically remove the unwanted portion
of the lacquer while having no effect at all on other portions of the
lacquer. There's some amount of "pushing aside" action, which
deforms the un-cut part of the lacquer - pushing some of it "inwards"
(towards the as-yet-uncut part of the master disc) and pushing some of
it back "outwards" (towards the groove that was cut one revolution ago).

If the pitch between the grooves is too narrow, this pushing of the
lacquer will have the effect of deforming the inner wall of the
previous groove... in effect, "imprinting" the modulation from this
groove upon the previous groove.

This unwanted adjacent-groove modulation effect becomes a permanent
part of the lacquer, is carried over into the metallization process
and the the creation of the mold/stampers, and is molded into every
piece of vinyl created from those stampers.

--
Dave Platt AE6EO
Friends of Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior
I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will
boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads!

"Dave Platt" wrote in message
...
I've read that this sort of LP pre-echo can occur as a result of the
original lacquer-cutting process during the making of the master. The
cutting stylus cannot do a perfect, side-effect-free job of cutting
the groove - that is, it cannot magically remove the unwanted portion
of the lacquer while having no effect at all on other portions of the
lacquer. There's some amount of "pushing aside" action, which
deforms the un-cut part of the lacquer - pushing some of it "inwards"
(towards the as-yet-uncut part of the master disc) and pushing some of
it back "outwards" (towards the groove that was cut one revolution ago).

If the pitch between the grooves is too narrow, this pushing of the
lacquer will have the effect of deforming the inner wall of the
previous groove... in effect, "imprinting" the modulation from this
groove upon the previous groove.

This unwanted adjacent-groove modulation effect becomes a permanent
part of the lacquer, is carried over into the metallization process
and the the creation of the mold/stampers, and is molded into every
piece of vinyl created from those stampers.

Yep, just one more reason to prefer CD's :-)

MrT.

"David Nebenzahl" wrote in message
s.com

I've heard it a number of times over the years on first
play of a vinyl record, on both 33 and 45 rpm discs, and
the pre-echo has always been *exactly* one revolution
ahead of the peak, both on the lead-in and between
tracks or in quiet passages. I'd put it down as an
artifact of either the material of the master deforming
slightly while being cut, or distortion of the plastic
while the hot record was cooling after coming out of the
mould.

The former being the most likely. Remember that when hot plastic is being
deformed to create grooves, it is being supported by the die. When the
lacquer is being cut, the previous groove is not being supported by anything
but air.

Unless, of course, the feed reel on the tape deck
being used just happened to rotate at the same speed as
the turntable.

Unlikely.

The latter is much more likely. Can't see how the vinyl
could deform that much and still retain an accurate image
from the mold.

Heat and pressure backed up by solid metal can really work! ;-)

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"David Nebenzahl" wrote in message
s.com

I've heard it a number of times over the years on first
play of a vinyl record, on both 33 and 45 rpm discs, and
the pre-echo has always been *exactly* one revolution
ahead of the peak, both on the lead-in and between
tracks or in quiet passages. I'd put it down as an
artifact of either the material of the master deforming
slightly while being cut, or distortion of the plastic
while the hot record was cooling after coming out of the
mould.

The former being the most likely. Remember that when hot plastic is being
deformed to create grooves, it is being supported by the die. When the
lacquer is being cut, the previous groove is not being supported by
anything but air.

Exactly. And in addition the lacquer surface is softened
to some extent by the physical heating of the cutter stylus
for a quieter cut.

Iain

"David Nebenzahl" wrote in message
s.com...
On 2/4/2009 10:49 AM John Williamson spake thus:

David Nebenzahl wrote:

On 2/4/2009 9:10 AM Brian Gaff spake thus:

The worst I've encountered is the very audible signal from the adjacent
turn so to speak.
I wonder what your sample had been played on though.

What you're describing has nothing to do with vinyl; you're talking
about "print-through", which is an artifact of the tape mastering
machine feeding the cutter, where you can hear signals from adjacent
lengths of tape.

I've heard it a number of times over the years on first play of a vinyl
record, on both 33 and 45 rpm discs, and the pre-echo has always been
*exactly* one revolution ahead of the peak, both on the lead-in and
between tracks or in quiet passages. I'd put it down as an artifact of
either the material of the master deforming slightly while being cut, or
distortion of the plastic while the hot record was cooling after coming
out of the mould. Unless, of course, the feed reel on the tape deck being
used just happened to rotate at the same speed as the turntable.

The latter is much more likely. Can't see how the vinyl could deform that
much and still retain an accurate image from the mold.


Well actually, its the master acetate that deforms. This is carried
through to matrix, and stanpers to the vinyl pressing.

Tape pre-echo can be easily eliminated by leadering up tight to the start
of the music.

Iain

Its not always the tape though. You can on one particular LP my mother had
by Frank Sinatra, hear the tape hiss come in just before the start of the
sound, but one turn prior to that, you can hear the sound as well. Its far
too much of a coincidence it would be one turn as well.
I cannot play these games any more unfortunately.
I have to use a Technics sl5 with an Ortofon Cart these days. Its showing
signs of the dreaded sticky lubricant as well. Needs its arm serviced.

Brian

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"David Nebenzahl" wrote in message
s.com...
On 2/4/2009 9:10 AM Brian Gaff spake thus:

The worst I've encountered is the very audible signal from the adjacent
turn so to speak.
I wonder what your sample had been played on though.

What you're describing has nothing to do with vinyl; you're talking about
"print-through", which is an artifact of the tape mastering machine
feeding the cutter, where you can hear signals from adjacent lengths of
tape.


--
Personally, I like Vista, but I probably won't use it. I like it
because it generates considerable business for me in consulting and
upgrades. As long as there is hardware and software out there that
doesn't work, I stay in business. Incidentally, my company motto is
"If this stuff worked, you wouldn't need me".

- lifted from sci.electronics.repair