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Frequency response of the ear



 
 
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  #301 (permalink)  
Old May 3rd 09, 08:19 AM posted to uk.rec.audio
Jim Lesurf[_2_]
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Default Frequency response of the ear

In article 49fc4d2c.6513015@localhost, Don Pearce
wrote:
On 02 May 2009 13:17:54 GMT, John Phillips
wrote:



I have recently been thinking about the factors that lead to good depth
perception in stereo systems. I suspect there are depth cues which
can come from mono systems:

- amplitude (relative: quieter = further away) - timbre (absolute: less
HF = further away)

And stereo cues:

- image width (absolute: narrower = further away)

I am wondering if reflections matter, either "original" ones from the
recording venue or introduced ones from the listening room (which may
blur the originals).

Don mentioned 'speaker toe-in earlier. Since the frequency response of
'speakers off-axis tends to fall off at HF faster than at LF I suspect
toe-in matters somewhat in achieving good timbral depth perception.


The big depth cue in recordings, and which can be adjusted fairly
realistically even in close-miked multitrack, is the ratio of direct to
reverberant sound.


That is also my understanding/experience. It is the relationship between
the 'direct' sound of the instruments and the reflections from their
surroundings that give a sense of distance and location in a surrounding
space. For a successful result the impression this gives should agree with
the effect of relative amplitudes and timings of the sounds arriving from
the pair of speakers.

Changes in amplitude aa such don't have much effect in my experience unless
*very* quiet or deafeningly loud!

Slainte,

Jim

--
Change 'noise' to 'jcgl' if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

  #302 (permalink)  
Old May 3rd 09, 08:29 AM posted to uk.rec.audio
Jim Lesurf[_2_]
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Default Frequency response of the ear

In article , Keith G
wrote:

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
In article , Keith G



How much does that matter in most 'domestic' applications?


Means the two waveforms won't be 'mirro images' so won't null.



An important point.



Again, what odds to anyone prepared only to pay as little as possible
for 'budget' speakers?


None. Just that the user won't be hearing clear stereo imaging.



That's a presumption I presume?


One based both on experience and the logic of the situation. if what you
hear isn't as I said was needed, then the 'departures' can alter the
locational impression given. However you won't need a perfect null to zero.
Just one good enough to allow your ears to do the job well. Hard to say
what that requires as it would vary from person to person, room to room,
etc.

Also, if the listener has never heard a genuinely clear image of the kind I
am referring to, they may have no reference point for it, so not know how
how much better the results can be if everything is right. Certainly my
experience is that most people with little knowledge in 'hi fi' assume
'stereo' just means having two speakers with some sounds from each, and
others from around and about.


The 'horns' can be shoved into almost any postion (provided there's
one on the left and one on the right somewhere) and the 'image' might
move a bit but it's quite academic - the music exists independently
of the speakers, wherever they are - up to a point, obviously! (Like
I said the other day - my 'sweet spot' is all the way from my room
out to the back door!! :-)


That's fine. But isn't the kind of stereo imaging I have been talking
about, and hear from the main system I use. I would not be without
this, but if you don't need it, it will make your life easier. :-)



Apologies for the snips (time presses) - my observation here is that, as
in all things, there are 'degrees of 'and stereo is a good example of
where 'good enough is good enough' for most people.


Yes. To many people this may not matter at all. Particularly if they are
listening to studio-assembled pop which has no original spatial layout that
means anything. And others may never have heard it, or care.

For myself I can only say I've never heard better stereo than I can get
here whether it's 'very good' or not; I would go onto say I only have
to enjoy the sound and be convinced by the spatiality when it applies.
Tbh, I don't care if it's 'stereo' or not - I have a lot of mono stuff
and the 'spatiality' on that is/has been good enough to fool a number
of people here, in the past!


I am not surprised by your last sentence above. Yes, I'd say the same about
many people, and agree that mono can give a fair indication of 'distance'
and the general size/type of acoustic in which a recording was made. What
it can't do is give the kind of imaging I was referring to, and which
people may not have either heard or care about. Indeed, many people
rergaded stereo as something they didn't want and stuck with mono for some
time as they preferred it.

I can listen quite happily at times to systems which are giving me no
plausible sense of the locations, etc. But I also find that imaging is a
real step forwards to presenting a sound that is more realistic. Does
improve the experience for me - provided the source material is good.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Change 'noise' to 'jcgl' if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

  #303 (permalink)  
Old May 3rd 09, 08:32 AM posted to uk.rec.audio
Jim Lesurf[_2_]
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Default Frequency response of the ear

In article 49fe52c2.7943468@localhost, Don Pearce
wrote:
On Sat, 2 May 2009 14:46:05 +0100, "Keith G"
wrote:



Means the two waveforms won't be 'mirro images' so won't null.



An important point.


Again, what odds to anyone prepared only to pay as little as
possible for 'budget' speakers?

None. Just that the user won't be hearing clear stereo imaging.



That's a presumption I presume?


No, not really. The quality of the null you get when you wire the
speakers out of phase is a good indicator of the quality (locatability,
if you like) of the stereo image they can produce.


FWIW in my experience if you can't get a close approach to a null (no
sound) then having the result sounding quiet and 'out of phase' gives best
results. (Effect varies from 'in the head' to 'behind you'. Hard to
describe, but you will know it once you have experienced it. :-) )

Slainte,

Jim

--
Change 'noise' to 'jcgl' if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

  #304 (permalink)  
Old May 3rd 09, 08:46 AM posted to uk.rec.audio
Jim Lesurf[_2_]
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Posts: 2,668
Default Frequency response of the ear

In article , Keith G
wrote:

"Don Pearce" wrote in message
news:49fe52c2.7943468@localhost...
On Sat, 2 May 2009 14:46:05 +0100, "Keith G"




You're on the wrong tack, or making the same mistake yourself - the
'presumption' I refer to is to presume the budget speakers won't deliver
a good 'stereo image' (or out of phase 'null', if you prefer) simply
beause they are *budget*!


So far as I know, that isn't a 'presumption' I made or wrote.

My experience is that they can, in fact, image very well (often, the
smaller cabinet, the better)


There can be good reasons for that. Smaller speakers will approach being
ones that radiate in all directions and do so over a range of frequencies.
This can help imaging compared with speakers that have directional patterns
that vary wildy with frequency. The snag is that radiation in all
directions makes you more sensitive to room reflections since you are
spraying the sound all over the walls. Panel speakers like the ESLs tend to
'beam' fore and aft so don't excite short delay side-wall reflections as
much.

So with small speakers the room requirements change (more difficult) if you
want imaging of the kind I've been talking about.

The problem with cheap speakers (of any size) is that two of them used as a
'pair' may actually be very different. The more they differ, the less
satisfactory the image would tend to become. All depends on the details.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Change 'noise' to 'jcgl' if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

  #305 (permalink)  
Old May 3rd 09, 08:48 AM posted to uk.rec.audio
Jim Lesurf[_2_]
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Posts: 2,668
Default Frequency response of the ear

In article 4a006be5.14377828@localhost, Don Pearce
wrote:

Well, you generally get pretty much what you pay for


I tend to reverse that. :-) You may pay for what you get. But you don't
always get what you pay for.

And it has to be said that good imaging is easier to achieve with
smaller boxes, unfortunately at the expense of all the other good stuff,
like bass.


....and more attention required to room acoustics, etc. Unless lucky.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Change 'noise' to 'jcgl' if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

  #306 (permalink)  
Old May 3rd 09, 08:52 AM posted to uk.rec.audio
Jim Lesurf[_2_]
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Posts: 2,668
Default Frequency response of the ear

In article , Keith G
wrote:

"Don Pearce" wrote in message
news:4a006be5.14377828@localhost...


more expensive drivers that go into more expensive speakers, what you
are paying for is consistency - quality control in other words.



I don't think the 'names' are likely to risk alienating future loyalty
with duff drivers and poor QC - modern speaker cabinets are
automatically churned out to perfection like kitchen cabinet drawers
these days and the people who fit the drivers are almost certainly
quite capable of building the computers we're on right now!



Depends on the 'names' you haven't given I guess. However if you look at
measurements where *both* speakers in a 'pair' have been checked you will
see it is quite common for the two to differ by easily measurable amounts.
Certainly enough to affect imaging *if* all else in the listening situation
was excellent.



insert Heinlein free lunch chestnut here


You can add TANJ to TANSTAAFL if you wish. :-)

Slainte,

Jim

--
Change 'noise' to 'jcgl' if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

  #307 (permalink)  
Old May 3rd 09, 09:39 AM posted to uk.rec.audio
David Looser
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Posts: 1,883
Default Frequency response of the ear

"Don Pearce" wrote in message
news:4a017ee2.19235296@localhost...
On Sat, 02 May 2009 17:10:09 GMT, Rob
wrote:


d


Which is a similar sensation I'd experience when valves are in the
amplification chain. I know (before you start!) that that doesn't
compute. It gives me a very believable notion of instruments (etc) and
spatial perspective.

Rob


Not sure what you mean. It's only voltage signals going through the
valves, so what they do to one, they must do to all. So do you mean
that everything sounds a bit further away with valves?


I'm going to make myself unpopular for saying it, but what I suspect Rob
really means is that he gets a similar sensation when he knows (or believes)
there are valves in the amplification chain.

David.


  #308 (permalink)  
Old May 3rd 09, 09:45 AM posted to uk.rec.audio
Don Pearce[_3_]
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Default Frequency response of the ear

On Sun, 3 May 2009 10:39:31 +0100, "David Looser"
wrote:

"Don Pearce" wrote in message
news:4a017ee2.19235296@localhost...
On Sat, 02 May 2009 17:10:09 GMT, Rob
wrote:


d

Which is a similar sensation I'd experience when valves are in the
amplification chain. I know (before you start!) that that doesn't
compute. It gives me a very believable notion of instruments (etc) and
spatial perspective.

Rob


Not sure what you mean. It's only voltage signals going through the
valves, so what they do to one, they must do to all. So do you mean
that everything sounds a bit further away with valves?


I'm going to make myself unpopular for saying it, but what I suspect Rob
really means is that he gets a similar sensation when he knows (or believes)
there are valves in the amplification chain.


But a similar sensation to what? My clip has five versions, all with
different proportions of reverb. Do you think he is saying the effect
is similar to the first, the last, or one in between. It can't just be
"similar".

d
  #309 (permalink)  
Old May 3rd 09, 10:18 AM posted to uk.rec.audio
Rob
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Posts: 187
Default Frequency response of the ear

Don Pearce wrote:
On Sat, 02 May 2009 17:10:09 GMT, Rob
wrote:

Here's how it works. Quick speech recording, played against a constant
reverb impulse (a local church, in fact), repeated five times with the
ratio of direct and reverberant sound changed each time - final one is
reverberant only.

Obviously greatly exaggerated for illustration.

http://81.174.169.10/odds/depth.mp3

d

Which is a similar sensation I'd experience when valves are in the
amplification chain. I know (before you start!) that that doesn't
compute. It gives me a very believable notion of instruments (etc) and
spatial perspective.

Rob


Not sure what you mean. It's only voltage signals going through the
valves, so what they do to one, they must do to all. So do you mean
that everything sounds a bit further away with valves?


Not really/necessarily.

Music played with valve amplification has depth - that is, some
instruments sound further forward, some further back. When I first
listened to a valve amplifier at home the first thing that came to mind
was 'home cinema'; that sort of 5:1 thing.

Don't know why. No reason why that should happen, I'm sure. But while it
does/I think it does, all's well :-)

Rob
  #310 (permalink)  
Old May 3rd 09, 10:19 AM posted to uk.rec.audio
Rob
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Posts: 187
Default Frequency response of the ear

David Looser wrote:
"Don Pearce" wrote in message
news:4a017ee2.19235296@localhost...
On Sat, 02 May 2009 17:10:09 GMT, Rob
wrote:


d
Which is a similar sensation I'd experience when valves are in the
amplification chain. I know (before you start!) that that doesn't
compute. It gives me a very believable notion of instruments (etc) and
spatial perspective.

Rob

Not sure what you mean. It's only voltage signals going through the
valves, so what they do to one, they must do to all. So do you mean
that everything sounds a bit further away with valves?


I'm going to make myself unpopular for saying it, but what I suspect Rob
really means is that he gets a similar sensation when he knows (or believes)
there are valves in the amplification chain.


I doff my cap :-)

Could well be. If you get the opportunity, though, I recommend you give
it a try.

Rob
 




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