"Keith G" wrote


I'm with you - a good stereo pair and no wires/speakers all over the place
would do me just fine,



What am I saying? It *does* do me fine - it's all I got in my room! ('Plex 2
:-)

On Sun, 17 May 2009 16:33:01 +0100, "Keith G"
wrote:


"Kalman Rubinson" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 17 May 2009 12:55:16 +0100, "Keith G"
wrote:

(Unless my recent amp upgrade is a *backwards* step and the s/h Tannoy
centre is no good....??

Intelligibility issues are rarely due to specific equipment (unless it
is truly dreadful) but to problems in room acoustics, speaker
placement and general levels/setup.

Kal


The movie/HT setup has been in use for a number of years and I'd say it's
probably *unexceptional*, but it's always been plenty good enough for movies
and are we are quite used to it. (It never gets used for music.)

As regards 'Shooter' - I'd immediately blame the recording if it weren't for
the fact that I have just now made a comparison and it is appreciably
clearer on my 'Plex 2' which is two channel audio only using a (brand new)
Denon hifi amp into a pair of very modest B&W standmounters.

That certainly suggests it is the setup of the 'other' system. (I do
not know what a 'Plex 2' is.)

I have checked the new Sony AV amp and the whole HT setup is perfectly fine
with audio CDs with no trace of anything untoward; I have also checked the
new (s/h) centre speaker and it's fine also. Actually, better than 'fine' -
I'd happily use two of them for a 2 channel system!

How have you 'checked' the setup? Have you balanced the speaker
levels with a SLM or other device? Have you adjusted the delays for
each speaker? Is the center free-standing, off the floor and aimed at
the listener?

Stumped. All the kit appears to work perfectly fine!

Confused. The movie dialogue sounds better/clearer on the lesser (2 channel)
audio system!

Again, that suggests a setup/acoustics issue.

Kal

In article ,
Rob wrote:
I did try a cheapish (£400-odd) Pioneer 5.1 system but couldn't believe
how bad it was. And I've messed about with rear speakers - while I
couldn't be bothered in the end, Das Boot, with various submerged type
noises, sounded good :-)

Indeed. Most 5.1 systems are of incredibly poor quality. But suit those
who wish such things. Ie more being better.

--
*Some days you're the dog, some days the hydrant.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Kalman Rubinson" wrote


That certainly suggests it is the setup of the 'other' system. (I do
not know what a 'Plex 2' is.)


Just my silly name for the cinema setup in my room which I call 'Multiplex
Screen 2' - the main system in the living room (sorry, no dedicated HT rooms
here in the UK) being '(Multi)Plex 1'!


How have you 'checked' the setup?


OK, I haven't checked the 'setup' as such - only made some direct
comparisons for elimination purposes, as follows:

I played a couple of audio CDs on the main (troubled) setup to check that
the basic sound quality of the new amp was OK on the speakers I'm using and
that the speakers hadn't been damaged by the *frisky behaviour* of a few
days ago! All was well.

Played the same BD ('Shooter') on my secondary (2 channel stereo only) setup
and confirmed fairly quickly that the dialogue was appreciably clearer on a
section that was 'needing the subbies' on the main setup - note that this
was a 'dialogue only' section with no other sounds at that time.

Took the new (eBay) Tannoy centre and put it on the left channel of my
secondary setup in place of one of the B&W standmounters. It was excellent -
no nasties of any description! Like I said - I'd get a pair of them for use
as 'normal' speakers!



Have you balanced the speaker
levels with a SLM or other device?


No, see below....


Have you adjusted the delays for
each speaker?


No, see below....


Is the center free-standing, off the floor and aimed at
the listener?


The centre is on the top shelf under the telly (spacings have been adjusted
to better centralise things):

http://www.moirac.adsl24.co.uk/Screensize.jpg


It works fine there - the words still come stright from the actor's mouths!
(Ask Rob! :-)


Again, that suggests a setup/acoustics issue.


Right. Now the trouble begins! 'Wilful ignorance' is my middle name (s) -
ask anybody! 'Til now, I have studiously avoided getting involved with the
AV setup until and have no clue (yet) how to navigate and operate the
seemingly tricky menus on the Sony and am reluctant to start 'buggering
about' with it!

I know it shouldn't be too hard and the amp even comes with its own mic to
set it all up'automatically'! But, before I start, I don't see how the all
the amplifier settings (whatever they might be) can affect a 'standalone'
bit of dialogue - ie when the dialogue needs to relate to nothing else at
that moment...??!

IOW, it appears I have a *paradox* on my hands!

On Sun, 17 May 2009 23:38:14 +0100, "Keith G"
wrote:


"Kalman Rubinson" wrote

Have you balanced the speaker
levels with a SLM or other device?


No, see below....

Too bad. Necessary.


Have you adjusted the delays for
each speaker?


No, see below....

Too bad. Necessary.


Is the center free-standing, off the floor and aimed at
the listener?


The centre is on the top shelf under the telly (spacings have been adjusted
to better centralise things):

http://www.moirac.adsl24.co.uk/Screensize.jpg


It works fine there - the words still come stright from the actor's mouths!
(Ask Rob! :-)

Apparently not since you have your complaint. Looking at your setup,
I wonder why you got a center channel. You main L/R speakers are not
very far apart.


Again, that suggests a setup/acoustics issue.


Right. Now the trouble begins! 'Wilful ignorance' is my middle name (s) -
ask anybody! 'Til now, I have studiously avoided getting involved with the
AV setup until and have no clue (yet) how to navigate and operate the
seemingly tricky menus on the Sony and am reluctant to start 'buggering
about' with it!

??? 'Buggering about?" What we are talking about is proper and
necessary setup procdures.

I know it shouldn't be too hard and the amp even comes with its own mic to
set it all up'automatically'! But, before I start, I don't see how the all
the amplifier settings (whatever they might be) can affect a 'standalone'
bit of dialogue - ie when the dialogue needs to relate to nothing else at
that moment...??!

The inclusion of the mic should be taken as an indication of the
importance of doing this right if you hope to achieve good
performance. First, the dialog is not 'standalone' and the fact that
it sounds OK when the speaker is used independently tells you that it
is the interaction of the elements that is at issue. Second, I see
lots of hard bare surfaces in your room. These are bad for acoustics,
thereby increasing the need for the electronics, at the very least, to
work correctly.

IOW, it appears I have a *paradox* on my hands!

Not a paradox, an opportunity.

Kal

"Kalman Rubinson" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 17 May 2009 23:38:14 +0100, "Keith G"
wrote:


"Kalman Rubinson" wrote

Have you balanced the speaker
levels with a SLM or other device?


No, see below....

Too bad. Necessary.


Have you adjusted the delays for
each speaker?


No, see below....

Too bad. Necessary.


Is the center free-standing, off the floor and aimed at
the listener?


The centre is on the top shelf under the telly (spacings have been
adjusted
to better centralise things):

http://www.moirac.adsl24.co.uk/Screensize.jpg


It works fine there - the words still come stright from the actor's
mouths!
(Ask Rob! :-)

Apparently not since you have your complaint. Looking at your setup,
I wonder why you got a center channel. You main L/R speakers are not
very far apart.


Again, that suggests a setup/acoustics issue.


Right. Now the trouble begins! 'Wilful ignorance' is my middle name (s) -
ask anybody! 'Til now, I have studiously avoided getting involved with the
AV setup until and have no clue (yet) how to navigate and operate the
seemingly tricky menus on the Sony and am reluctant to start 'buggering
about' with it!

??? 'Buggering about?" What we are talking about is proper and
necessary setup procdures.

I know it shouldn't be too hard and the amp even comes with its own mic to
set it all up'automatically'! But, before I start, I don't see how the all
the amplifier settings (whatever they might be) can affect a 'standalone'
bit of dialogue - ie when the dialogue needs to relate to nothing else at
that moment...??!

The inclusion of the mic should be taken as an indication of the
importance of doing this right if you hope to achieve good
performance. First, the dialog is not 'standalone' and the fact that
it sounds OK when the speaker is used independently tells you that it
is the interaction of the elements that is at issue. Second, I see
lots of hard bare surfaces in your room. These are bad for acoustics,
thereby increasing the need for the electronics, at the very least, to
work correctly.

IOW, it appears I have a *paradox* on my hands!

Not a paradox, an opportunity.

Kal



Thanks for your input, Kal - I appreciate you taking the trouble!

"Kalman Rubinson" wrote in message
...

??? 'Buggering about?" What we are talking about is proper and
necessary setup procdures.


Indeed, and the difference that getting the correct adjustments absolutely
correct is significant. Cinema 5.1 systems are set up by a trained installer
and the set-up menus are password protected to stop the cinema staff from
"buggering about" with them afterwards.

David.

In article ,
David Looser wrote:
"Kalman Rubinson" wrote in message
...

??? 'Buggering about?" What we are talking about is proper and
necessary setup procdures.


Indeed, and the difference that getting the correct adjustments
absolutely correct is significant. Cinema 5.1 systems are set up by a
trained installer and the set-up menus are password protected to stop
the cinema staff from "buggering about" with them afterwards.

And the cinema will have reasonable acoustic treatment - essential for
anything like this to work as intended.

--
*I wonder how much deeper the ocean would be without sponges*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
David Looser wrote:
"Kalman Rubinson" wrote in message
...

??? 'Buggering about?" What we are talking about is proper and
necessary setup procdures.


Indeed, and the difference that getting the correct adjustments
absolutely correct is significant. Cinema 5.1 systems are set up by a
trained installer and the set-up menus are password protected to stop
the cinema staff from "buggering about" with them afterwards.

And the cinema will have reasonable acoustic treatment - essential for
anything like this to work as intended.


Oh indeed. The cinema I help run was built in 1911, well before the start of
the "talkies", nevertheless it (fortuitously?) has excellent acoustics. It's
now a Grade 2* listed building, so any alterations, such as additional
acoustic treatment, would need listed building consent. Fortunately this has
not proved necessary.

David.

On Mon, 18 May 2009 09:16:08 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
David Looser wrote:
"Kalman Rubinson" wrote in message
...

??? 'Buggering about?" What we are talking about is proper and
necessary setup procdures.


Indeed, and the difference that getting the correct adjustments
absolutely correct is significant. Cinema 5.1 systems are set up by a
trained installer and the set-up menus are password protected to stop
the cinema staff from "buggering about" with them afterwards.

And the cinema will have reasonable acoustic treatment - essential for
anything like this to work as intended.

That, too, was noted in my message. Unfortunately, too few home
theaters are so treated.

Kal