"Don Pearce" wrote in message
news:4aac51d2.31855500@localhost...
On Thu, 10 Sep 2009 18:15:09 +0100, "Keith G"
wrote:


OK, I have recorded identical samples with and without Tic Tacs and
there's
not an iota of difference that I can hear.

And here's another pair of traces of difference, this time microphony.
The turntable is not spinning - the stylus is simply sitting on a
stationary record, responding to reasonably loud room noises.

The blue trace shows the flat platter, the green is the six-point
suspension.


How did you get 6 points of contact? I use 3 Tic Tacs for obvious reasons!


So much for the record not acting as a diaphragm in this
condition.


I have no doubt that a record deck (needle down) makes a good 'transducer'
but the word is still *discernable*...???

???



There is a little hum spike there that I really ought to deal with.


http://81.174.169.10/odds/microphony.gif


That ain't hum - this is **hummmm**:

http://www.moirac.adsl24.co.uk/showntell/Hum.jpg


(At the end of the side, before and after 'auto-return'... :-)

On Thu, 10 Sep 2009 22:13:12 +0100, "Keith G"
wrote:


"Don Pearce" wrote in message
news:4aa94700.29085171@localhost...
On Thu, 10 Sep 2009 18:15:09 +0100, "Keith G"
wrote:


"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Keith G wrote:
All sounds typically very scary, but my suspicion is that no normal
person would be able to tell the difference between a record played
directly on the mat/platter/whatever and the same record lifted up on,
say, only three bearing points.

You certainly will if you wind up the wick. It will feed back. Unless
in
a
well sealed enclosure. It acts beautifully as a diaphragm.


Well aware (after nearly half a century as a user) that a record deck
can
act as a transducer but the question is still the is any FB
discernable
in normal use or even wicked up?

I might give it a go later but I notice the mint imperials haven't been
opened and I don't like them anyway, so it'll have to be with Tic
Tacs...



OK, I have recorded identical samples with and without Tic Tacs and
there's
not an iota of difference that I can hear.

Pic of the *unopened* Mint Imperials and the Tic Tacs in situ on my Show N
Tell page, along with the samples which, unfortunately, all have a ton of
hum that I didn't know I was getting! (Hasty wiring to this computer - I
was
cutting grass at the time!!)

But hum or no, the samples are of an identical recording setup and are
good
enough for a quick comparison!



I've done the same thing here, but I've measured what happens.

Two recordings, both of the same piece of silence between tracks 1 and
2 of a typical record. Then invert one channel and sum to mono. That
gives the vertical movement of the stylus - which is what this is all
about.


It is? I thought it was all about what you might or might not be able to
*hear*, not measure...??


I've been through that - and the mechanism. I'm doing the
measurements. This is all about how much of the systems performance is
used up in just dealing with the inaudible nonsense provided by this
ridiculous turntable.



Now downsample to 200Hz to see low frequencies nicely, and take an FFT
of both recordings. Here is the result:

http://81.174.169.10/odds/six.gif

First, at the expected 3.3Hz, we have a level about 22dB higher on the
point-suspended disc (that is nearly ten times the voltage for the
preamp to contend with), but a similar difference continues all the
way down in the general subsonic rumble area. I have to say I wasn't
actually expecting it to be quite that much worse. I now think I
wouldn't take one of these turntables as a gift.


I'm not sure ****ing about with the 'silence' is really where it counts -
that's for geeks; I rely on the music to soak up all sorts of **** when I'm
listening to it on LP...!! :-)


Of course.

d
--
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

On Thu, 10 Sep 2009 22:18:20 +0100, "Keith G"
wrote:


"Don Pearce" wrote in message
news:4aac51d2.31855500@localhost...
On Thu, 10 Sep 2009 18:15:09 +0100, "Keith G"
wrote:


OK, I have recorded identical samples with and without Tic Tacs and
there's
not an iota of difference that I can hear.

And here's another pair of traces of difference, this time microphony.
The turntable is not spinning - the stylus is simply sitting on a
stationary record, responding to reasonably loud room noises.

The blue trace shows the flat platter, the green is the six-point
suspension.


How did you get 6 points of contact? I use 3 Tic Tacs for obvious reasons!


I used six small cork discs that were once under chair legs until they
lost their sticky.


So much for the record not acting as a diaphragm in this
condition.


I have no doubt that a record deck (needle down) makes a good 'transducer'
but the word is still *discernable*...???

???

Oh yes. Especially if you wind up the volume a bit. I tried and with
the pointy suspension it did not to be terribly loud before feedback
howl started.




There is a little hum spike there that I really ought to deal with.


http://81.174.169.10/odds/microphony.gif


That ain't hum - this is **hummmm**:

http://www.moirac.adsl24.co.uk/showntell/Hum.jpg


(At the end of the side, before and after 'auto-return'... :-)


Oh, that really isn't pretty.

d

--
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Keith G" wrote in message


I have yet to
hear any *audible* consequence therefrom, but what were
the records? I'm always curious!!


Given all the other bad things that happen naturally while vinyl is being
played...

But, here's a better test.

(1) Support the LP around the edges, not in the middle of the grooves as
shown by the picture on your web site.

(2) With the lid open and the room quiet, record a quiet groove being
played.

(3) With the lid open and the room filled with the sound of say, pink
noise, record the same quiet groove being played.


Forget all that, all I'm interested in is whether or not one can actually
*hear* the difference between point support and flat on the platter when
listening (without a lid). You obviously managed to find your way to my
picture and sound samples - it's this simple: which of the 3 clips are with
the record flat on the mat and which are on the Tic Tacs? Can you *in any
way shape* tell?

For the rest, here are the samples:

http://www.moirac.adsl24.co.uk/shown...onsSample1.mp3

http://www.moirac.adsl24.co.uk/shown...onsSample2.mp3

http://www.moirac.adsl24.co.uk/shown...onsSample3.mp3

As per:

http://www.moirac.adsl24.co.uk/shown...tImperials.jpg

(Note the Mint Imperials are *unopened*! ;-)

On Thu, 10 Sep 2009 22:32:43 +0100, "Keith G"
wrote:


"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
m...
"Keith G" wrote in message


I have yet to
hear any *audible* consequence therefrom, but what were
the records? I'm always curious!!


Given all the other bad things that happen naturally while vinyl is being
played...

But, here's a better test.

(1) Support the LP around the edges, not in the middle of the grooves as
shown by the picture on your web site.

(2) With the lid open and the room quiet, record a quiet groove being
played.

(3) With the lid open and the room filled with the sound of say, pink
noise, record the same quiet groove being played.


Forget all that, all I'm interested in is whether or not one can actually
*hear* the difference between point support and flat on the platter when
listening (without a lid). You obviously managed to find your way to my
picture and sound samples - it's this simple: which of the 3 clips are with
the record flat on the mat and which are on the Tic Tacs? Can you *in any
way shape* tell?

For the rest, here are the samples:

http://www.moirac.adsl24.co.uk/shown...onsSample1.mp3

http://www.moirac.adsl24.co.uk/shown...onsSample2.mp3

http://www.moirac.adsl24.co.uk/shown...onsSample3.mp3

As per:

http://www.moirac.adsl24.co.uk/shown...tImperials.jpg

(Note the Mint Imperials are *unopened*! ;-)


I'm going for No 2 being the Mint Imperial recording. The problem is
that with only 3 supports, the rumble peak is at half the frequency,
which makes it harder to see.

d

"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 10 Sep 2009 22:18:20 +0100, "Keith G"
wrote:


That ain't hum - this is **hummmm**:

http://www.moirac.adsl24.co.uk/showntell/Hum.jpg


(At the end of the side, before and after 'auto-return'... :-)


Oh, that really isn't pretty.


My own fault: that is a 'secondary' deck and is amplified in my room on the
AV and radio setup. I yanked the phono leads and ran a 10m phono lead
through to the amplifer on the computer in this room - basically, the earth
was going one way; the signal was going the other!

Like I said, I was cutting the grass - popping in to start each recording
without checking anything and only found the hum when it was too late! No
big deal, all the recordings are identical other than the Tic Tacs/rubber
mat thing.

"Don Pearce" wrote in message
news:4aad73cb.40552140@localhost...
On Thu, 10 Sep 2009 22:32:43 +0100, "Keith G"
wrote:


Forget all that, all I'm interested in is whether or not one can actually
*hear* the difference between point support and flat on the platter when
listening (without a lid). You obviously managed to find your way to my
picture and sound samples - it's this simple: which of the 3 clips are
with
the record flat on the mat and which are on the Tic Tacs? Can you *in any
way shape* tell?

For the rest, here are the samples:

http://www.moirac.adsl24.co.uk/shown...onsSample1.mp3

http://www.moirac.adsl24.co.uk/shown...onsSample2.mp3

http://www.moirac.adsl24.co.uk/shown...onsSample3.mp3

As per:

http://www.moirac.adsl24.co.uk/shown...tImperials.jpg

(Note the Mint Imperials are *unopened*! ;-)


I'm going for No 2 being the Mint Imperial recording. The problem is
that with only 3 supports, the rumble peak is at half the frequency,
which makes it harder to see.


Whaaa...??

OK. I'm not going to drag this out - Recording No. 1 was on the 3 Tic Tacs.
(Not Mint Imperials - I bloody said they were *not* opened!!) The other two
clips (nos 2 and 3) were both with the record flat on the mat. (I did 3
separate recordings to throw you clever 'analysis' buggers off! ;-)

The thing is, forgetting the measurements and pretty pictures for a moment,
who TF can tell any difference simply by listening?

The really stupid thing is the 'Tic Tac' recording ***almost*** sounds a
leetle bit better than the other two, to me...!!!???

(Which is why I don't knock people who like to buy snake oil products, when
they are absolutely certain they hear improvements! ;-)

On Thu, 10 Sep 2009 22:59:18 +0100, "Keith G"
wrote:


"Don Pearce" wrote in message
news:4aad73cb.40552140@localhost...
On Thu, 10 Sep 2009 22:32:43 +0100, "Keith G"
wrote:


Forget all that, all I'm interested in is whether or not one can actually
*hear* the difference between point support and flat on the platter when
listening (without a lid). You obviously managed to find your way to my
picture and sound samples - it's this simple: which of the 3 clips are
with
the record flat on the mat and which are on the Tic Tacs? Can you *in any
way shape* tell?

For the rest, here are the samples:

http://www.moirac.adsl24.co.uk/shown...onsSample1.mp3

http://www.moirac.adsl24.co.uk/shown...onsSample2.mp3

http://www.moirac.adsl24.co.uk/shown...onsSample3.mp3

As per:

http://www.moirac.adsl24.co.uk/shown...tImperials.jpg

(Note the Mint Imperials are *unopened*! ;-)


I'm going for No 2 being the Mint Imperial recording. The problem is
that with only 3 supports, the rumble peak is at half the frequency,
which makes it harder to see.


Whaaa...??

OK. I'm not going to drag this out - Recording No. 1 was on the 3 Tic Tacs.
(Not Mint Imperials - I bloody said they were *not* opened!!) The other two
clips (nos 2 and 3) were both with the record flat on the mat. (I did 3
separate recordings to throw you clever 'analysis' buggers off! ;-)

The thing is, forgetting the measurements and pretty pictures for a moment,
who TF can tell any difference simply by listening?

The really stupid thing is the 'Tic Tac' recording ***almost*** sounds a
leetle bit better than the other two, to me...!!!???

(Which is why I don't knock people who like to buy snake oil products, when
they are absolutely certain they hear improvements! ;-)




I already said the effect was in itself inaudible. It is the large
signal handling that is compromised. Hefty bass will tend to overload
prematurely.

d
--
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

"Keith G" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Keith G" wrote in message


I have yet to
hear any *audible* consequence therefrom, but what were
the records? I'm always curious!!


Given all the other bad things that happen naturally
while vinyl is being played...

But, here's a better test.

(1) Support the LP around the edges, not in the middle
of the grooves as shown by the picture on your web site.

(2) With the lid open and the room quiet, record a quiet
groove being played.

(3) With the lid open and the room filled with the sound
of say, pink noise, record the same quiet groove being
played.


Forget all that, all I'm interested in is whether or not
one can actually *hear* the difference between point
support and flat on the platter when listening (without a
lid).

Well, if you want people to compare audio samples, they should be as alike
as possible aside from the difference being investigated.

These obviously aren't all that similar.

Looks like the needle was dropped on the record at different points.

You obviously managed to find your way to my
picture and sound samples - it's this simple: which of
the 3 clips are with the record flat on the mat and which
are on the Tic Tacs? Can you *in any way shape* tell?

Sample 2 seems to be the most different from the rest.

"UnsteadyKen" wrote in message
...
Keith G said...

Which are on really *whippy* vinyl but which are beautifully recorded
and
sound fine! (I might use that one for the Tic Tac Test later!)


I did - see other posts.



I have the first
Now That's What I Call Music
Virgin Now 1
which is a double album from 1983 and quite floppy, but sounds very good
indeed, it has been very carefully equalised/mastered to fit 8 x 3/4
minute tracks on each side. Comparison with these versions and the
originals on 12" 45 or cd reveals a huge reduction in the bass but the
Now versions sound faster and not so cumbersome and in many ways
preferable.


OK, good.




And some will hang like an uncooked pizza - I have yet to hear any
*audible*
consequence therefrom,

Can't say that I've ever noticed anything either. Though I suspect that
the later thinner lp's don't seem to be so susceptible to damage,
different formulation of springier vinyl perhaps?


Yes, the thinner discs do seem to be less 'sooty/carbony' than some of the
earlier, more rigid pressings and they do certainly feel more pliable and
robust. Try this - bend one of the 'thinnies' in half 'til the edges touch,
then let it spring back and put it on and play it!! :-)

(The only music medium of today that will still work a thousand years from
now!! ;-)



I'm currently using a record mat made from a nylon? mesh covered with
foamed plastic, this seems to make a noticeable reduction in surface
noise, though it may be due to the change in tracking angle caused by
the extra height or both, whatever?


Could be - you'd have to play with the VTA and SRA (rake) to see what works
best. I've used all sorts of platters and mats - all the way from a massive
acrylic platter with a clamp (as Don rightly says) to the inverted tin lid
I've got on my current setup and I really can't say there's been the sort of
difference that a lost of people and most magazines get into a piff about.

One thing I do know is for seriously fast bass you need a massive plinth and
no suspension at all!



I'm pretty pleased with the sound
I'm getting from my humble Pioneer PL-112D and Audio Technica AT110E


I'm not surprised, you've got good, honest kit there - I'm a *big* fan of
the AT110E myself!




but what were the records? I'm always curious!!

The 1965 was bought because it is a 10" 33rpm and in superb condition.
Good string sound and a very nice mono recording had me tangoing around
with walking stick.
Mantovani and His Orchestra
Selection from album of Favourite Tango's
Decca LF.1175


Mantovani is always a delight, I have a superb 'round the world' boxed set
as well as a few 'loose' discs.


The 1966 was acquired because I love Judith Durham's soaring voice.
Also very good condition, not a tick or pop to be heard.

The Seekers
Come the Day
Columbia SCX 6093


OK, if you like 'soaring', try Nana Moussaka:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhc7M...eature=related