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Transcriptor Hydraulic Reference on sale at UK
Hi
I hope that it is fine for me to mention that I have put my Transcriptor Hydraulic Reference turntable for sale at eBay. Here is a link to it: http://is.gd/35C9Q Just in case the link goes wonky for some reason here is the item number: 260474245281 Normal listening will now resume... -- Patrick |
Transcriptor Hydraulic Reference on sale at UK
In article ,
Patrick James wrote: Hi I hope that it is fine for me to mention that I have put my Transcriptor Hydraulic Reference turntable for sale at eBay. Here is a link to it: http://is.gd/35C9Q Just in case the link goes wonky for some reason here is the item number: 260474245281 Normal listening will now resume... A prime example of design over engineering. Ideal coffee table exhibit. Just don't try and use it. -- *I'm really easy to get along with once people learn to worship me Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
Transcriptor Hydraulic Reference on sale at UK
On 2009-09-10 00:26:48 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
said: A prime example of design over engineering. Ideal coffee table exhibit. Just don't try and use it. I've used it for over twenty years and found it to be quite superb. -- Patrick |
Transcriptor Hydraulic Reference on sale at UK
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message ... In article , Patrick James wrote: Hi I hope that it is fine for me to mention that I have put my Transcriptor Hydraulic Reference turntable for sale at eBay. Here is a link to it: http://is.gd/35C9Q Just in case the link goes wonky for some reason here is the item number: 260474245281 Normal listening will now resume... A prime example of design over engineering. Ideal coffee table exhibit. Just don't try and use it. -- *I'm really easy to get along with once people learn to worship me Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. Wasn't it originally designed as a film prop ? - A Clockwork Orange, I think, although it may have been 2001 A Space Odysee. Fortunately they got it right with the Gyrodek. Geoff MacK |
Transcriptor Hydraulic Reference on sale at UK
On Thu, 10 Sep 2009 08:44:23 +0100, "Geoff Mackenzie"
wrote: "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message ... In article , Patrick James wrote: Hi I hope that it is fine for me to mention that I have put my Transcriptor Hydraulic Reference turntable for sale at eBay. Here is a link to it: http://is.gd/35C9Q Just in case the link goes wonky for some reason here is the item number: 260474245281 Normal listening will now resume... A prime example of design over engineering. Ideal coffee table exhibit. Just don't try and use it. -- *I'm really easy to get along with once people learn to worship me Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. Wasn't it originally designed as a film prop ? - A Clockwork Orange, I think, although it may have been 2001 A Space Odysee. Fortunately they got it right with the Gyrodek. Geoff MacK Any deck that supports the record on six points can never be described as "right". It is a ridiculous thing to do. The record must sag between the points and cause a rhythmic 3.3Hz vertical thump through the stylus, severely compromising headroom in the preamp. The best a turntable can do, of course, is not make things any worse - they can never be great. And I thought that the hydraulic reference was mid-tide at Newlyn. d |
Transcriptor Hydraulic Reference on sale at UK
In article ,
Patrick James wrote: On 2009-09-10 00:26:48 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)" said: A prime example of design over engineering. Ideal coffee table exhibit. Just don't try and use it. I've used it for over twenty years and found it to be quite superb. You can't be serious? Unless only using headphones. Mounting the disc like that turns it into a near perfect diaphragm. Causing feedback at very modest levels. Then there's the likelyhood of smashing the pickup to bits if being slightly careless when playing a 7". Then there's the care needed when closing the lid to avoid the pickup jumping - those soft springs cause the whole unit to tilt alarmingly. -- *You are validating my inherent mistrust of strangers Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
Transcriptor Hydraulic Reference on sale at UK
On Thu, 10 Sep 2009 01:49:56 +0100, Patrick James
wrote: A prime example of design over engineering. Ideal coffee table exhibit. Just don't try and use it. I've used it for over twenty years and found it to be quite superb. I can't believe it was designed on any engineering principles except "this looks impressively hi-tec and expensive". Despite it's apparent failure to provide the basic function of a platter - solid support for the disc - did it really manage to sound special? |
Transcriptor Hydraulic Reference on sale at UK
In article ,
Laurence Payne wrote: On Thu, 10 Sep 2009 01:49:56 +0100, Patrick James wrote: A prime example of design over engineering. Ideal coffee table exhibit. Just don't try and use it. I've used it for over twenty years and found it to be quite superb. I can't believe it was designed on any engineering principles except "this looks impressively hi-tec and expensive". Despite it's apparent failure to provide the basic function of a platter - solid support for the disc - did it really manage to sound special? Absolutely not. Far worse than a good cheap deck. All it mananaged was to go round at roughly the correct speed. I'll bet Russ Andrews sold them. ;-) -- *What happens if you get scared half to death twice? * Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
Transcriptor Hydraulic Reference on sale at UK
"Laurence Payne" wrote in message ... On Thu, 10 Sep 2009 01:49:56 +0100, Patrick James wrote: A prime example of design over engineering. Ideal coffee table exhibit. Just don't try and use it. I've used it for over twenty years and found it to be quite superb. I can't believe it was designed on any engineering principles except "this looks impressively hi-tec and expensive". Despite it's apparent failure to provide the basic function of a platter - solid support for the disc - did it really manage to sound special? It was a triumph of style over function, designed to appeal to those (who are still with us today, of course) to whom what a HiFi system looks like is more important than what it sounds like. And you have to admit it does look "special". David. |
Transcriptor Hydraulic Reference on sale at UK
"Don Pearce" wrote Any deck that supports the record on six points can never be described as "right". It is a ridiculous thing to do. The record must sag between the points This is a joke - right? |
Transcriptor Hydraulic Reference on sale at UK
On Thu, 10 Sep 2009 11:53:17 +0100, "Keith G"
wrote: "Don Pearce" wrote Any deck that supports the record on six points can never be described as "right". It is a ridiculous thing to do. The record must sag between the points This is a joke - right? Of course not. How could a flexible plastic record not sag between those suspension points? Remember that we are talking thousandths of an inch to create a big signal, not a sag like a row of bunting. A record needs to be supported over its whole surface, as flat as possible. d |
Transcriptor Hydraulic Reference on sale at UK
"Don Pearce" wrote in message news:4aa8db1e.1466875@localhost... On Thu, 10 Sep 2009 11:53:17 +0100, "Keith G" wrote: "Don Pearce" wrote Any deck that supports the record on six points can never be described as "right". It is a ridiculous thing to do. The record must sag between the points This is a joke - right? Of course not. How could a flexible plastic record not sag between those suspension points? Stiffness. Remember that we are talking thousandths of an inch to create a big signal, not a sag like a row of bunting. A record needs to be supported over its whole surface, as flat as possible. And yet they are so often not, for one reason or another - without any truly discernable effect on the sound.... |
Transcriptor Hydraulic Reference on sale at UK
On Thu, 10 Sep 2009 12:24:00 +0100, "Keith G"
wrote: "Don Pearce" wrote in message news:4aa8db1e.1466875@localhost... On Thu, 10 Sep 2009 11:53:17 +0100, "Keith G" wrote: "Don Pearce" wrote Any deck that supports the record on six points can never be described as "right". It is a ridiculous thing to do. The record must sag between the points This is a joke - right? Of course not. How could a flexible plastic record not sag between those suspension points? Stiffness. Hold an LP up balanced on two fingers at opposite edges - you will see how much it sags quite easily. Obviously it doesn't sag as much as that with six suspension points, but it sags much more than enough to generate a huge signal. Remember that we are talking thousandths of an inch to create a big signal, not a sag like a row of bunting. A record needs to be supported over its whole surface, as flat as possible. And yet they are so often not, for one reason or another - without any truly discernable effect on the sound.... You won't hear it, because the frequency is too low, but what it does is create a huge subsonic signal that the preamp has to cope with. That eats into the overload margin, and can result in premature onset of distortion with loud bass notes. So as a piece of engineering, it is ****. Some may consider it pretty, but I'm not among them because I can't separate form from function that easily. If I can see why it is bad, it will not please me aesthetically. d |
Transcriptor Hydraulic Reference on sale at UK
"Don Pearce" wrote in message
news:4aa9e20e.3243421@localhost You won't hear it, because the frequency is too low, but what it does is create a huge subsonic signal that the preamp has to cope with. The flexing also creates wow. I don't know whether or not it is audible given all the other speed variations that are inherent in LP playback, but its there. |
Transcriptor Hydraulic Reference on sale at UK
In article ,
David Looser wrote: It was a triumph of style over function, designed to appeal to those (who are still with us today, of course) to whom what a HiFi system looks like is more important than what it sounds like. In one. The ideal, of course, is something which works well *and* looks good. And you have to admit it does look "special". Yes. I actually have one. Was given it broken. But don't use it. It just looks nice on a shelf. Along with a Nagra. Which does work well. The reason it was broken? It belonged to a mate who was so fed up with the faults in performance I described earlier, that he through it out of a window... -- *How many roads must a man travel down before he admits he is lost? * Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
Transcriptor Hydraulic Reference on sale at UK
Don Pearce said...
Hold an LP up balanced on two fingers at opposite edges - you will see how much it sags quite easily. Obviously it doesn't sag as much as that with six suspension points, but it sags much more than enough to generate a huge signal. The Hydraulic was designed for the thick'n sturdy pre 73 oil crisis discs which are a totally different animal to the later floppies. I got a couple of lp's last week, a Decca ffrr from 1965 and a bog standard EMI Columbia from 1966 and neither droops on your finger tip test, on the contrary significant pressure has to be applied to deform them. -- Ken O'Meara http://www.btinternet.com/~unsteadyken/ |
Transcriptor Hydraulic Reference on sale at UK
In article ,
Keith G wrote: All sounds typically very scary, but my suspicion is that no normal person would be able to tell the difference between a record played directly on the mat/platter/whatever and the same record lifted up on, say, only three bearing points. You certainly will if you wind up the wick. It will feed back. Unless in a well sealed enclosure. It acts beautifully as a diaphragm. -- *Experience is something you don't get until just after you need it * Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
Transcriptor Hydraulic Reference on sale at UK
In article , UnsteadyKen
wrote: Don Pearce said... Hold an LP up balanced on two fingers at opposite edges - you will see how much it sags quite easily. Obviously it doesn't sag as much as that with six suspension points, but it sags much more than enough to generate a huge signal. The Hydraulic was designed for the thick'n sturdy pre 73 oil crisis discs which are a totally different animal to the later floppies. My unreliable recollection is that many 'pre 73' LPs were far from flat, or even very thick. I got a couple of lp's last week, a Decca ffrr from 1965 and a bog standard EMI Columbia from 1966 and neither droops on your finger tip test, Weird. Most of the pre 73 LPs I have are ones I bought when they first came on sale! :-) However, a sensing system like a stylus might be able to detect variations from flat thay you can't see using your mark 1 eyeballs. So your "neither droops" may simply tell us something about your eyes, not the LP. :-) You could check by holding a straight-edge just above the LP, touching at the suspension points. Then see if daylight floods though the gap. That way you may be able to see a droop which your eyes would otherwise not notice. That said, since most LP sensors are essentially velocity sensitive that might help here given the low frequency of 6-point support at 100/3 rpm. I guess it then depends on the suspension of the cantilever and the response, etc, of the preamp. And with luck the unwanted ripple will be below the arm/cart resonance, not spot-on that value! on the contrary significant pressure has to be applied to deform them. ....to the extent you find visible. I have a vague feeling this topic did feature in a magazine set of measurements a few decades ago. If I can find that sometime I'll let people know. Slainte, Jim -- Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me. Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html |
Transcriptor Hydraulic Reference on sale at UK
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message ... In article , Keith G wrote: All sounds typically very scary, but my suspicion is that no normal person would be able to tell the difference between a record played directly on the mat/platter/whatever and the same record lifted up on, say, only three bearing points. You certainly will if you wind up the wick. It will feed back. Unless in a well sealed enclosure. It acts beautifully as a diaphragm. Well aware (after nearly half a century as a user) that a record deck can act as a transducer but the question is still the is any FB discernable in normal use or even wicked up? I might give it a go later but I notice the mint imperials haven't been opened and I don't like them anyway, so it'll have to be with Tic Tacs... |
Transcriptor Hydraulic Reference on sale at UK
"Keith G" wrote in message ... All sounds typically very scary, but my suspicion is that no normal person would be able to tell the difference between a record played directly on the mat/platter/whatever and the same record lifted up on, say, only three bearing points. Might try it later with mint imperials.... Using the mint imperials will indeed sound dreadful.. Unless of course you use a green marker pen on the edge of each mint prior to placement.. ;-) |
Transcriptor Hydraulic Reference on sale at UK
"UnsteadyKen" wrote in message ... Don Pearce said... Hold an LP up balanced on two fingers at opposite edges - you will see how much it sags quite easily. Obviously it doesn't sag as much as that with six suspension points, but it sags much more than enough to generate a huge signal. The Hydraulic was designed for the thick'n sturdy pre 73 oil crisis discs which are a totally different animal to the later floppies. There's all sorts of horse**** to do with coupling/supporting records (vacuums, clamps, felts, rubber mats, glass platters &c. &c.) and plenty of followers of each and every 'theory' - you just go with what you like, I find. And I have to say I have never been able to tell the difference between similarly good recordings on the various thicknesses of vinyl - a good example that springs to mind is a series of compilations called.... called.... erm... heaves arse off chair and goes to look 'Reflections'! (CBS10034 to name but a few) Which are on really *whippy* vinyl but which are beautifully recorded and sound fine! (I might use that one for the Tic Tac Test later!) I got a couple of lp's last week, a Decca ffrr from 1965 and a bog standard EMI Columbia from 1966 and neither droops on your finger tip test, on the contrary significant pressure has to be applied to deform them. And some will hang like an uncooked pizza - I have yet to hear any *audible* consequence therefrom, but what were the records? I'm always curious!! :-) |
Transcriptor Hydraulic Reference on sale at UK
"CJ" wrote in message ... "Keith G" wrote in message ... All sounds typically very scary, but my suspicion is that no normal person would be able to tell the difference between a record played directly on the mat/platter/whatever and the same record lifted up on, say, only three bearing points. Might try it later with mint imperials.... Using the mint imperials will indeed sound dreadful.. The mint imperials are out (see elsewhere) - do try and keep up! |
Transcriptor Hydraulic Reference on sale at UK
"Keith G" wrote There's all sorts of horse**** to do with coupling/supporting records (vacuums, clamps, felts, rubber mats, glass platters &c. &c.) and plenty of followers of each and every 'theory' - you just go with what you like, I find. And I have to say I have never been able to tell the difference between similarly good recordings on the various thicknesses of vinyl - a good example that springs to mind is a series of compilations called.... 'Reflections'! (CBS10034 to name but a few) Jeez, I just Googled and there's a fekk'n *pandemic* of them!!! http://www.musicstack.com/listings.c...USD&aid=wax-fm Can't speak for them all - I only had a couple of them and gave one of them away!! |
Transcriptor Hydraulic Reference on sale at UK
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article , David Looser wrote: It was a triumph of style over function, designed to appeal to those (who are still with us today, of course) to whom what a HiFi system looks like is more important than what it sounds like. In one. The ideal, of course, is something which works well *and* looks good. I'll defer to your knowledge of mechanics (etc), but why would he do this if he (presumably) knew, like you, it's about the worst method possible of supporting a record? A bit about the designer: http://www.transcriptors.net/history.htm I'd assume your answer would be to make as much money as possible? So, they 'work' in that sense. Mitchell also made his designs it seems, citing 'reduce electrostatic charge' as the reasoning behind the method. Also, what's all that about the Design Council award - you can't award a prize for design if the thing doesn't work?! Mind you, having just looked at the Design Council's website, I'm not at all confident in their design skills. Rob |
Transcriptor Hydraulic Reference on sale at UK
Keith G said...
Which are on really *whippy* vinyl but which are beautifully recorded and sound fine! (I might use that one for the Tic Tac Test later!) I have the first Now That's What I Call Music Virgin Now 1 which is a double album from 1983 and quite floppy, but sounds very good indeed, it has been very carefully equalised/mastered to fit 8 x 3/4 minute tracks on each side. Comparison with these versions and the originals on 12" 45 or cd reveals a huge reduction in the bass but the Now versions sound faster and not so cumbersome and in many ways preferable. And some will hang like an uncooked pizza - I have yet to hear any *audible* consequence therefrom, Can't say that I've ever noticed anything either. Though I suspect that the later thinner lp's don't seem to be so susceptible to damage, different formulation of springier vinyl perhaps? I'm currently using a record mat made from a nylon? mesh covered with foamed plastic, this seems to make a noticeable reduction in surface noise, though it may be due to the change in tracking angle caused by the extra height or both, whatever? I'm pretty pleased with the sound I'm getting from my humble Pioneer PL-112D and Audio Technica AT110E but what were the records? I'm always curious!! The 1965 was bought because it is a 10" 33rpm and in superb condition. Good string sound and a very nice mono recording had me tangoing around with walking stick. Mantovani and His Orchestra Selection from album of Favourite Tango's Decca LF.1175 The 1966 was acquired because I love Judith Durham's soaring voice. Also very good condition, not a tick or pop to be heard. The Seekers Come the Day Columbia SCX 6093 The worst sound in the world is someone saying: "It took us two trips to the tip to dump all those lp's" Read and weep for lost glories. http://www.btinternet.com/~unsteadyken/classlplist.html The remnants are here... http://www.btinternet.com/~unsteadyken/lplist.html I keep a record of my records in a spreadsheet. -- Ken O'Meara http://www.btinternet.com/~unsteadyken/ |
Transcriptor Hydraulic Reference on sale at UK
UnsteadyKen wrote:
Don Pearce said... Hold an LP up balanced on two fingers at opposite edges - you will see how much it sags quite easily. Obviously it doesn't sag as much as that with six suspension points, but it sags much more than enough to generate a huge signal. The Hydraulic was designed for the thick'n sturdy pre 73 oil crisis discs which are a totally different animal to the later floppies. I got a couple of lp's last week, a Decca ffrr from 1965 and a bog standard EMI Columbia from 1966 and neither droops on your finger tip test, on the contrary significant pressure has to be applied to deform them. I just rested an LP on two points. The centre drooped by 4mm. Of course UnsteadyKen didn't measure anything.... -- Eiron. |
Transcriptor Hydraulic Reference on sale at UK
In article ,
Keith G wrote: You certainly will if you wind up the wick. It will feed back. Unless in a well sealed enclosure. It acts beautifully as a diaphragm. Well aware (after nearly half a century as a user) that a record deck can act as a transducer but the question is still the is any FB discernable in normal use or even wicked up? Yes - because it's not supported properly it can vibrate in tune with the speakers more easily. Thought you'd have realised that. Of course you can improve matters by using something underneath the LP to give more support. After you've adjusted the pickup to suit, obviously. I might give it a go later but I notice the mint imperials haven't been opened and I don't like them anyway, so it'll have to be with Tic Tacs... -- *I almost had a psychic girlfriend but she left me before we met * Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
Transcriptor Hydraulic Reference on sale at UK
"Keith G" wrote in message ... "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message ... In article , Keith G wrote: All sounds typically very scary, but my suspicion is that no normal person would be able to tell the difference between a record played directly on the mat/platter/whatever and the same record lifted up on, say, only three bearing points. You certainly will if you wind up the wick. It will feed back. Unless in a well sealed enclosure. It acts beautifully as a diaphragm. Well aware (after nearly half a century as a user) that a record deck can act as a transducer but the question is still the is any FB discernable in normal use or even wicked up? I might give it a go later but I notice the mint imperials haven't been opened and I don't like them anyway, so it'll have to be with Tic Tacs... OK, I have recorded identical samples with and without Tic Tacs and there's not an iota of difference that I can hear. Pic of the *unopened* Mint Imperials and the Tic Tacs in situ on my Show N Tell page, along with the samples which, unfortunately, all have a ton of hum that I didn't know I was getting! (Hasty wiring to this computer - I was cutting grass at the time!!) But hum or no, the samples are of an identical recording setup and are good enough for a quick comparison! |
Transcriptor Hydraulic Reference on sale at UK
"Keith G" wrote in message
I have yet to hear any *audible* consequence therefrom, but what were the records? I'm always curious!! Given all the other bad things that happen naturally while vinyl is being played... But, here's a better test. (1) Support the LP around the edges, not in the middle of the grooves as shown by the picture on your web site. (2) With the lid open and the room quiet, record a quiet groove being played. (3) With the lid open and the room filled with the sound of say, pink noise, record the same quiet groove being played. |
Transcriptor Hydraulic Reference on sale at UK
On 2009-09-10 10:06:56 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
said: In article , Patrick James wrote: On 2009-09-10 00:26:48 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)" said: A prime example of design over engineering. Ideal coffee table exhibit. Just don't try and use it. I've used it for over twenty years and found it to be quite superb. You can't be serious? Unless only using headphones. Mounting the disc like that turns it into a near perfect diaphragm. Causing feedback at very modest levels. Then there's the likelyhood of smashing the pickup to bits if being slightly careless when playing a 7". Then there's the care needed when closing the lid to avoid the pickup jumping - those soft springs cause the whole unit to tilt alarmingly. It always amuses me how on Usenet people will present themselves as experts on things that they have so little knowledge about. The LP does not behave like a diaphram on the platter for the very simple reason that for an LP to behave like a diaphram it would need to be *secured* at the edge, like a drum skin for example. Your imagination is running away with you. The Transcriptor Hydraulic Reference does not have soft springs at all. The later Michell versions did have leaf springs which were soft, but the Transcriptor Hydraulic Reference sits on three fairly hard feet which have rubber at the bottom. As an aside and a credit to Michell Engineering the soft leaf springs they introduced were very good. However if you popped into a shop or something and just played around with a Michell Hydraulic Reference then you might have thought that it was as Dave has imagined. Playing singles places the stylus at no risk any differently than with a rubber platter that was common at the time. Remember that when the Transcriptor Hydraulic Reference was intruduced all turntables supported the platter on ridges or points. This is true of the Garrard 401, the Thorens turntables etc. Oddly enough dropping the cartidge on the platter of the THR was less likely to damage the stylus because the weights just bob the arm out of the way. Dropping the stylus on a rubber ridged platter would see the being battered to death. It is true that dropping styli on any platter without a record is not a good idea :) So here in Daves post are the usual tedious things people say about Transcriptor turntables when they have no experience of them or perhaps just saw one in a shop once. I am going to address a couple of other points I saw in the thread. The turntable was not designed to be a prop for a set used in Clockwork Orange. Kubrik loved this turntable and used it a set. Another in the thread has pointed out that when the turntable was introduced and sold records were much thicker than those sold, say, in the eighties or nineties. This is very true indeed, and the very thin records of the eighties were a major reason why turntable manufactureres stopped using point suspension or ridged suspension. As a return to that issue it is worth remembering that in the seventies (and indeed early eighties) point or ribbed suspension was considered a good thing because it meant that the record was not sitting right on top of a potential dusty platter. Build up of dust on records was a great concern in the seventies because people were not as precious with them as they are today. Now I hope to give a brief idea of just how great an advance in turntable design the THR represented. It was in fact the brain child of a brilliant engineer called David Gammon, who very sadly passed away a few months ago. It was David Gammon's intention to make a turntable which provided better speed stability and minimised rumble to an extent far greater than that of any other available turntable. He achieved this by applying plain engineering science to the device with an uprecedented thoroughness. In fact the unconventionl appearance of the THR is because it is the first turntable in which form follows function. Previously turntables had been designed firstly with a view to how they look, then the mechanism fitted into that design. David Gammon knew that attaching the mechanism to a wooden box for a chassis was crazy. The wooden box simply amplifies the sounds of the mechanism. So with the THR the plinth is plywood laminated with an acrylic layer creating a highly damped non resonant base. Remember that this is in the sixties, no other turntable manufacturer was exploring these ideas. First lets look at platter design which has caused such consternation for some. The common way to make a platter in the sixties was just to cast one, fairly thin in a drum shape, aka Garrard and others. However those designs were very resonant, indeed flicking the edge would cause them to ring sometimes. David Gammon did not want a resonating platter. He knew that any, even partial, air enclosure within the platter was a potential cause of resonance, so in fact he designed a platter which did not enclose air and which was acoustically inherently "dead". The platter is very heavy (12 kg) and most of the weight is at the periphery. It has a huge moment of inertia compared with other turntables of the time. In fact the moment of inertia is very great even by today's standards. This, of course, was to facilitate exceptional speed stability. Wow and flutter is extroadinarily low with the THR even compared with many quality turntables in manufacture today. To give you an idea of the attention to detail on these issues. The pinion for the belt on the motor is attached using a screw aligned with the axis. Other belt drive turntables would attach the pinion with a grub screw at 90 degrees to the axis. That was easier, but if you attach a pinion the second way the tightening of the screw moves the pinion off-axis such that it become eccentric, albeit to a tiny degree. However David Gammon would not have even the possibility of that kind of speed instability even that small. The THR was and is probably the single most influential turntable design. The other is the Thorens upon which the Linn Sondek was famously based. However the Linn is the only turntable inspired by the Thorens whereas very many turntables available today are facsimiles in one form or another of the THR. If you do get hold of a THR in good condition (not necessarily mine) and you set it up correctly then you will be simply amazed at how good it sounds. You will be immediately in love with it. The record won't magically become a diaphram, it won't wobble around in some mysterious way, the stylus won't mysteriously dive bomb the platter... Anyway I won't be posting again in this thread so please do enjoy music no matter what the medium! -- Patrick |
Transcriptor Hydraulic Reference on sale at UK
On Thu, 10 Sep 2009 18:15:09 +0100, "Keith G"
wrote: "Keith G" wrote in message ... "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message ... In article , Keith G wrote: All sounds typically very scary, but my suspicion is that no normal person would be able to tell the difference between a record played directly on the mat/platter/whatever and the same record lifted up on, say, only three bearing points. You certainly will if you wind up the wick. It will feed back. Unless in a well sealed enclosure. It acts beautifully as a diaphragm. Well aware (after nearly half a century as a user) that a record deck can act as a transducer but the question is still the is any FB discernable in normal use or even wicked up? I might give it a go later but I notice the mint imperials haven't been opened and I don't like them anyway, so it'll have to be with Tic Tacs... OK, I have recorded identical samples with and without Tic Tacs and there's not an iota of difference that I can hear. Pic of the *unopened* Mint Imperials and the Tic Tacs in situ on my Show N Tell page, along with the samples which, unfortunately, all have a ton of hum that I didn't know I was getting! (Hasty wiring to this computer - I was cutting grass at the time!!) But hum or no, the samples are of an identical recording setup and are good enough for a quick comparison! I've done the same thing here, but I've measured what happens. Two recordings, both of the same piece of silence between tracks 1 and 2 of a typical record. Then invert one channel and sum to mono. That gives the vertical movement of the stylus - which is what this is all about. Now downsample to 200Hz to see low frequencies nicely, and take an FFT of both recordings. Here is the result: http://81.174.169.10/odds/six.gif First, at the expected 3.3Hz, we have a level about 22dB higher on the point-suspended disc (that is nearly ten times the voltage for the preamp to contend with), but a similar difference continues all the way down in the general subsonic rumble area. I have to say I wasn't actually expecting it to be quite that much worse. I now think I wouldn't take one of these turntables as a gift. d |
Transcriptor Hydraulic Reference on sale at UK
"Patrick James" wrote In fact the
unconventionl appearance of the THR is because it is the first turntable in which form follows function. Previously turntables had been designed firstly with a view to how they look, then the mechanism fitted into that design. Well that is *definitely* nonsense! Turntables are pretty functional things, which look how they do because that's what they are. Form has *always* followed function. David. |
Transcriptor Hydraulic Reference on sale at UK
On Thu, 10 Sep 2009 19:35:18 +0100, Patrick James
wrote: On 2009-09-10 10:06:56 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)" said: In article , Patrick James wrote: On 2009-09-10 00:26:48 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)" said: A prime example of design over engineering. Ideal coffee table exhibit. Just don't try and use it. I've used it for over twenty years and found it to be quite superb. You can't be serious? Unless only using headphones. Mounting the disc like that turns it into a near perfect diaphragm. Causing feedback at very modest levels. Then there's the likelyhood of smashing the pickup to bits if being slightly careless when playing a 7". Then there's the care needed when closing the lid to avoid the pickup jumping - those soft springs cause the whole unit to tilt alarmingly. It always amuses me how on Usenet people will present themselves as experts on things that they have so little knowledge about. The LP does not behave like a diaphram on the platter for the very simple reason that for an LP to behave like a diaphram it would need to be *secured* at the edge, like a drum skin for example. So the disc is insufficiently well secured to qualify as a diaphragm? Ok, if you want to be pedantic you are right, but as I hope you can see, this turntable is actually worse than a properly secured diaphragm. The record is simply flapping in the breeze. Your imagination is running away with you. The Transcriptor Hydraulic Reference does not have soft springs at all. The later Michell versions did have leaf springs which were soft, but the Transcriptor Hydraulic Reference sits on three fairly hard feet which have rubber at the bottom. So he wasn't interested in decoupling the unit from chassis-transmitted vibration? Is that supposed to be a plus? So here in Daves post are the usual tedious things people say about Transcriptor turntables when they have no experience of them or perhaps just saw one in a shop once. We were addressing the physics of the thing, which from the picture is clearly exactly as we supposed. I am going to address a couple of other points I saw in the thread. The turntable was not designed to be a prop for a set used in Clockwork Orange. Kubrik loved this turntable and used it a set. Another in the thread has pointed out that when the turntable was introduced and sold records were much thicker than those sold, say, in the eighties or nineties. This is very true indeed, and the very thin records of the eighties were a major reason why turntable manufactureres stopped using point suspension or ridged suspension. The difference is merely one of degree, not principle. As a return to that issue it is worth remembering that in the seventies (and indeed early eighties) point or ribbed suspension was considered a good thing because it meant that the record was not sitting right on top of a potential dusty platter. Build up of dust on records was a great concern in the seventies because people were not as precious with them as they are today. This is forty years later - I would hope we have learned at least something. Now I hope to give a brief idea of just how great an advance in turntable design the THR represented. It was in fact the brain child of a brilliant engineer called David Gammon, who very sadly passed away a few months ago. It was David Gammon's intention to make a turntable which provided better speed stability and minimised rumble to an extent far greater than that of any other available turntable. He achieved this by applying plain engineering science to the device with an uprecedented thoroughness. In fact the unconventionl appearance of the THR is because it is the first turntable in which form follows function. Previously turntables had been designed firstly with a view to how they look, then the mechanism fitted into that design. David Gammon knew that attaching the mechanism to a wooden box for a chassis was crazy. The wooden box simply amplifies the sounds of the mechanism. So with the THR the plinth is plywood laminated with an acrylic layer creating a highly damped non resonant base. Remember that this is in the sixties, no other turntable manufacturer was exploring these ideas. Simply gibberish. Had he been concerned with resonances he would have made sure that the one thing in contact with the stylus - the record - was secured and not simply making a very passable imitation of a microphone. First lets look at platter design which has caused such consternation for some. The common way to make a platter in the sixties was just to cast one, fairly thin in a drum shape, aka Garrard and others. However those designs were very resonant, indeed flicking the edge would cause them to ring sometimes. David Gammon did not want a resonating platter. He knew that any, even partial, air enclosure within the platter was a potential cause of resonance, so in fact he designed a platter which did not enclose air and which was acoustically inherently "dead". The platter is very heavy (12 kg) and most of the weight is at the periphery. It has a huge moment of inertia compared with other turntables of the time. In fact the moment of inertia is very great even by today's standards. This, of course, was to facilitate exceptional speed stability. Wow and flutter is extroadinarily low with the THR even compared with many quality turntables in manufacture today. Go to all the trouble of making a heavy platter, then don't actually connect the record to it. That has to be one of the stupidest ideas ever. To give you an idea of the attention to detail on these issues. The pinion for the belt on the motor is attached using a screw aligned with the axis. Other belt drive turntables would attach the pinion with a grub screw at 90 degrees to the axis. That was easier, but if you attach a pinion the second way the tightening of the screw moves the pinion off-axis such that it become eccentric, albeit to a tiny degree. However David Gammon would not have even the possibility of that kind of speed instability even that small. It is always a winner when someone corrects a "fault" that nobody else suffers from. The THR was and is probably the single most influential turntable design. The other is the Thorens upon which the Linn Sondek was famously based. However the Linn is the only turntable inspired by the Thorens whereas very many turntables available today are facsimiles in one form or another of the THR. If you do get hold of a THR in good condition (not necessarily mine) and you set it up correctly then you will be simply amazed at how good it sounds. You will be immediately in love with it. A good record deck doesn't sound amazing. It simply fails to impart further faults to the vinyl. The record won't magically become a diaphram, it won't wobble around in some mysterious way, the stylus won't mysteriously dive bomb the platter... Oh yes it will. It has no choice in the matter. Anyway I won't be posting again in this thread so please do enjoy music no matter what the medium! What is that supposed to mean? Are you saying that your statements and assertions are gospel and not open to challenge? d |
Transcriptor Hydraulic Reference on sale at UK
On Thu, 10 Sep 2009 18:15:09 +0100, "Keith G"
wrote: OK, I have recorded identical samples with and without Tic Tacs and there's not an iota of difference that I can hear. And here's another pair of traces of difference, this time microphony. The turntable is not spinning - the stylus is simply sitting on a stationary record, responding to reasonably loud room noises. The blue trace shows the flat platter, the green is the six-point suspension. So much for the record not acting as a diaphragm in this condition. There is a little hum spike there that I really ought to deal with. http://81.174.169.10/odds/microphony.gif d |
Transcriptor Hydraulic Reference on sale at UK
On 2009-09-10, Jim Lesurf wrote:
In article , UnsteadyKen wrote: Don Pearce said... Hold an LP up balanced on two fingers at opposite edges - you will see how much it sags quite easily. Obviously it doesn't sag as much as that with six suspension points, but it sags much more than enough to generate a huge signal. The Hydraulic was designed for the thick'n sturdy pre 73 oil crisis discs which are a totally different animal to the later floppies. My unreliable recollection is that many 'pre 73' LPs were far from flat, or even very thick. I obviously don't know what records you bought in that era but I bought (and still own and play) roughly 500 or so records made pre 73. I've just rechecked a ramdom sample (20 or so) and all without exception are very flat and quite thick. Most are UK pop/rock but I also have a fair few classical and some US rock imports. Even the very cheap classical (eg Fontana and Marble Arch) are flat and are thick enough not to droop. I got a couple of lp's last week, a Decca ffrr from 1965 and a bog standard EMI Columbia from 1966 and neither droops on your finger tip test, Weird. Most of the pre 73 LPs I have are ones I bought when they first came on sale! :-) It would be interesting to know which labels made the "floppy" pre 73 LPs you have - if I have any of the same I'll dig them out and check mine. I do have a fair number of thin floppy LP's but these I'm fairly sure date from the mid to late 70's. Malcolm |
Transcriptor Hydraulic Reference on sale at UK
On 2009-09-10, Eiron wrote:
UnsteadyKen wrote: Don Pearce said... Hold an LP up balanced on two fingers at opposite edges - you will see how much it sags quite easily. Obviously it doesn't sag as much as that with six suspension points, but it sags much more than enough to generate a huge signal. The Hydraulic was designed for the thick'n sturdy pre 73 oil crisis discs which are a totally different animal to the later floppies. I got a couple of lp's last week, a Decca ffrr from 1965 and a bog standard EMI Columbia from 1966 and neither droops on your finger tip test, on the contrary significant pressure has to be applied to deform them. I just rested an LP on two points. The centre drooped by 4mm. Of course UnsteadyKen didn't measure anything.... I've just rested my LP ("With The Beatles" Mono PMC 1206 pressed in 1964) on two points. The centre drooped by maybe 0.2mm. Of course Eiron generalises from his limited personal experience to the universal... |
Transcriptor Hydraulic Reference on sale at UK
On Thu, 10 Sep 2009 20:45:07 +0100, Malcolm Lee
wrote: On 2009-09-10, Eiron wrote: UnsteadyKen wrote: Don Pearce said... Hold an LP up balanced on two fingers at opposite edges - you will see how much it sags quite easily. Obviously it doesn't sag as much as that with six suspension points, but it sags much more than enough to generate a huge signal. The Hydraulic was designed for the thick'n sturdy pre 73 oil crisis discs which are a totally different animal to the later floppies. I got a couple of lp's last week, a Decca ffrr from 1965 and a bog standard EMI Columbia from 1966 and neither droops on your finger tip test, on the contrary significant pressure has to be applied to deform them. I just rested an LP on two points. The centre drooped by 4mm. Of course UnsteadyKen didn't measure anything.... I've just rested my LP ("With The Beatles" Mono PMC 1206 pressed in 1964) on two points. The centre drooped by maybe 0.2mm. Of course Eiron generalises from his limited personal experience to the universal... You have both presented a single figure. But apparently you are allowed to generalise, but Eiron isn't How does that work, exactly? d -- Pearce Consulting http://www.pearce.uk.com |
Transcriptor Hydraulic Reference on sale at UK
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message ... In article , Keith G wrote: You certainly will if you wind up the wick. It will feed back. Unless in a well sealed enclosure. It acts beautifully as a diaphragm. Well aware (after nearly half a century as a user) that a record deck can act as a transducer but the question is still the is any FB discernable in normal use or even wicked up? Yes - because it's not supported properly it can vibrate in tune with the speakers more easily. Thought you'd have realised that. Of course you can improve matters by using something underneath the LP to give more support. After you've adjusted the pickup to suit, obviously. The word *discernable* (ie by ear in normal use) is where it hangs; not whether or not the LP is the only thing in a soundfield that might *not* be vibrating sympathetically! |
Transcriptor Hydraulic Reference on sale at UK
"Don Pearce" wrote in message news:4aa94700.29085171@localhost... On Thu, 10 Sep 2009 18:15:09 +0100, "Keith G" wrote: "Keith G" wrote in message ... "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message ... In article , Keith G wrote: All sounds typically very scary, but my suspicion is that no normal person would be able to tell the difference between a record played directly on the mat/platter/whatever and the same record lifted up on, say, only three bearing points. You certainly will if you wind up the wick. It will feed back. Unless in a well sealed enclosure. It acts beautifully as a diaphragm. Well aware (after nearly half a century as a user) that a record deck can act as a transducer but the question is still the is any FB discernable in normal use or even wicked up? I might give it a go later but I notice the mint imperials haven't been opened and I don't like them anyway, so it'll have to be with Tic Tacs... OK, I have recorded identical samples with and without Tic Tacs and there's not an iota of difference that I can hear. Pic of the *unopened* Mint Imperials and the Tic Tacs in situ on my Show N Tell page, along with the samples which, unfortunately, all have a ton of hum that I didn't know I was getting! (Hasty wiring to this computer - I was cutting grass at the time!!) But hum or no, the samples are of an identical recording setup and are good enough for a quick comparison! I've done the same thing here, but I've measured what happens. Two recordings, both of the same piece of silence between tracks 1 and 2 of a typical record. Then invert one channel and sum to mono. That gives the vertical movement of the stylus - which is what this is all about. It is? I thought it was all about what you might or might not be able to *hear*, not measure...?? Now downsample to 200Hz to see low frequencies nicely, and take an FFT of both recordings. Here is the result: http://81.174.169.10/odds/six.gif First, at the expected 3.3Hz, we have a level about 22dB higher on the point-suspended disc (that is nearly ten times the voltage for the preamp to contend with), but a similar difference continues all the way down in the general subsonic rumble area. I have to say I wasn't actually expecting it to be quite that much worse. I now think I wouldn't take one of these turntables as a gift. I'm not sure ****ing about with the 'silence' is really where it counts - that's for geeks; I rely on the music to soak up all sorts of **** when I'm listening to it on LP...!! :-) |
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