"David Looser" wrote in message
...

Nowadays we are told that CDs must be mastered at such a high level at to
actually clip "because that is what the market demands".

Not quite.
Firstly, this applies to pop CD's only. The vast majority of classical,
jazz and light music CDs are impeccably mastered.

The pop market demands "high impact reproduction" This is achieved
with smiley EQ and compression (sometimes to the point of clipping)


But that LPs can be cut at a much more reasonable level. Why, if the
market demands "loud" do the LPs not need to be "load". It makes no sense.

Simple.
They are made for a different sector of the market.

Iain

"David Looser" wrote in message
...
"MiNe 109" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"David Looser" wrote:

The only reason I can think of why a record company might choose to
treat
the two formats this way is they are trying to maintain a market for LPs
as
a premium-price product. And deliberately damaging the sound quality of
the
CD is thus an attempt to drive the quality-concious public into buying
the
premium price LP. Nothing else makes any sense.

No, in pop music the over-compression gives a distinct sound quality
presumed to be part of the music product's appeal.

If that were the case the compression would be added during mix-down, not
in the mastering stage.

In most cases, it has been, and not only on mix-down, on mastering
but on the recording of individual instruments also.

You need to be familiar with the difference in the concept of disc cutting
and CD mastering to really know what is happening here, David.


Even given the recent relative strength of the lp market, I'd guess most
titles get a limited pressing, so producers are given free(er) rein.


And a free(er) reign means less compression? But you just said it was
"part of the music product's appeal" Why does the producer want the LP to
have less appeal?

He doesn't of course. Pop CDs are subject to "market requirements"
and demands to which fortunately the LP is not subjected.

In terms of value for money, an increasing number of people think that
a double LP pressed on 180gm pure new vinyl, in a gatefold sleeve,
with additional pics and insert card info is a much better buy than a CD.

At least for the type of music that interest me (early jazz and
baroque/early classical) CDs are very well produced indeed.

I am glad that we still have a choice, and that companies still
producing LPs have managed to rise to the occasion. (It's just
a pity that they could not always work to this standard earlier:-(

..

Iain

"David Looser" wrote in message
...
"MiNe 109" wrote


Are you *really* trying to suggest that there is any kind of sense behind
record industry behaviour?

They are delivering the kind of product which the general public tell
them they want. Different sectors have different criteria, which is
reflected in the material itself, and the way it is presented, right down
to the artwork and even the fonts used in printing.

The vast majority of people who buy pop CDs are
very happy. The levels of returns are incredibly low.

You can do your own mini survey in your local record shop. It's
great fun to ask people what sort of music they buy, how often
and in what quantity. It will really open your eyes, David.


Iain

"David Looser" wrote in message
...

"Rob" wrote in message
m...
David Looser wrote:
"Rob" wrote
Told you so!

(Vinyl Nut)

Who told what to whom?

David.


You told me/others that we are told that CDs must be mastered at such a
high level at to actually clip "because that is what the market demands".
But that LPs can be cut at a much more reasonable level. Why, if the
market demands "loud" do the LPs not need to be "load". loud'?


So when you said "told you so" you meant *I* was the one doing the
telling? So you meant to say "told me so!" You do seem remarkably confused
:-)

Anyway I never said that "CDs must be mastered at such a high level at to
actually clip "because that is what the market demands". That's what Iain
keeps saying.

Incorrect. I have stated that clipping can be the result of attemps to push
levels too far. It is not a goal.


But neither he, nor the industry, has ever offered an ounce
of proof.

Get up out of that comfy char and find out for yourself, David.
Take it up with the record companies if you need further info.

Iain

"MiNe 109" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"David Looser" wrote:

"MiNe 109" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"David Looser" wrote:

"MiNe 109" wrote

I don't see the difference what stage the compression is added
makes.

It makes no difference to the final result, of course. What I meant
was
that
if the compression is part of "the sound" (as you said it was) then it
would
be part of the recording process prior to the point that the recording
is
approved by producer and artist, not added in later.

Yes, artists and producers approve the compromised product. They have
to
or it won't be released in any form.

Exactly, and they approve it *before* mastering, so before the comprssion
is
applied. If it was part of the "sound" it would be applied before, not
after.

Uh, no. These days mastering is like an extension of the mixing process.
The final product is just that: final.

This is something that many people fail to understand - the difference
in the concept of disc mastering, and CD mastering. The skill and artistry
of disc mastering was to produce an acetae which was as close a match
as possible to the studio master tape. This is a lot more difficult than
you might imagine.

On the other hand, just as you state, the CD mastering is regarded
as another stage on the production process, and so does not necessarily
have to sound like the studio master. In a large number of instances,
no further work is required or deemed necessary, and so the production
master can be a clone of what the studio engineer had produced. This
is almost always the case in classical, jazz and light music. Pop CDs
are a totally different matter.

The suits do not have the time to listen to everything, nor the skills to
decide what is, or is not, "commercial"

What a load of nonsense!
Iain

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...

Indeed, I do wonder if I and others have lost interest in much of 'pop'
music in recent decades because of the relentless level compression, even
when not consiously aware this was why.

Jim. This is one of the best things I have read on any audio group
in a very long time. I shall print it out and frame it :-))


What you are saying is "This lobster soup is too salty- but
then I don't like/never buy lobster soup anyway.

But seriously, instead of moaning here on a totally ineffectual
NG with zero clout, why don't you take your grievances to
people within the record company of your choice who are
in the position to redress the situation?

Please keep us informed of your progress.

Iain

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
David Looser wrote:

The only reason I can think of why a record company might choose to
treat the two formats this way is they are trying to maintain a market
for LPs as a premium-price product. And deliberately damaging the sound
quality of the CD is thus an attempt to drive the quality-concious
public into buying the premium price LP. Nothing else makes any sense.

Yup. And preparing the way for yet another super duper format.
CD as an end user format is as near as makes no difference transparent.
That's what it was designed to be - and those original parameters are as
valid today as then. So there is no point in trying to market something
'better'. Unless you degrade commercially released CDs.

I have never seen an instance where a vinyl release was marketed
as "better". Perhaps you could point me to one, Dave. But the
two formats do often sound different . Take your pick, or enjoy
them both:-)

Iain

On Mon, 7 Dec 2009 12:03:39 +0200, "Iain Churches"
wrote:

Incorrect. I have stated that clipping can be the result of attemps to push
levels too far. It is not a goal.


No, that isn't right. Clipping is a featured option (in that there is
a control for it) of most mastering suites. When someone deploys that
feature, it is a goal.

d

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...

Are you joining Kitty

Sorry, I don't know anyone of that name.

He's the one who loves calling people by nicknames so merely following his
lead.

and endowing vinyl with some magical properties

I have cut enough masters (cutting ID -11W)
to know the answer.

Another non answer.

Not at all. The knowledge I have is from hands-on
experience.



- or
is this just yet another example of poor mastering?

You seem to need to pontificate without even
taking the time and trouble to familiarise yourself with
the production in question.

Principles are principles, Iain.
I thought you at least would have a grasp
of them.'

No, you are talking about a product about which you
know nothing.- and cannot even be bothered to investigate.

Get a vinyl pressing and the CD and decide for yourself.

To prove what?'

To answer the question you raised.

The Basie/Ray Charles is just one of a string of examples.
Most people would be happy with the CD until they hear
the vinyl. That's the point:-)

The point seems to be your industry is in a mess.

No. It's going through a transition.

On the bright side, the increased number of specialist
labels means that there is a more diverse and interesting
range of music available to suit everty taste and pocket.
That's a very positive thing.


Falling standards.
Sadly all too common these days.

'That's funny coming from a man who stands and watches
his colleagues clip mics for string sections onto music stands:-)))


Iain

"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 3 Dec 2009 14:00:42 +0200, "Iain Churches"
wrote:

The fact that the vinyl pressings were sold out on the day of release,
and the CD is still available many months later speaks volumes:-)

What is speaks volumes about is probably the relative quantities of
each that are produced. The manufacturers know that the CD will go on
selling in the long term, while the vinyl will be snapped up quickly
by the enthusiast, then stop dead.

There is, by all accounts a list of back orders for the vinyl
just in case pressings from a -2 stamper become available.

It's fairly unusual for the vinyl and CD releases to be made
simultaneously. I have one of each.

It's very interesting to compare the two versions of the same
product. Clearly meant for different different audiences. Just
as with the Basie/Ray Charles production.


Iain