"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"Iain Churches" wrote


No-one these days wants to bother with vinyl (rifle shots and breakast
cereals, snap crackle pop)

Or do they?

The fact that the vinyl pressings were sold out on the day of release,
and the CD is still available many months later speaks volumes:-)

Compare the limited edition vinyl pressings with the equivalent CD
(Count Basie/Ray Charles, is a good example) and you will find out why.


The simple truth is that all the *enthusiasm* for audio and music lies
with the (valves and) vinyl brigade as even a cursory trawl through the
Net will very quickly show - start with eBay's completed listings and find
a recent Thorens TD124 MkII deck (listed as a Beogram 3000) that went for
about 800 quid when Yamaha DSP *FX boxes* need 6 bids to reach a *heady*
£12.50 if they sell at all..!!

@:-)


Actually, seeing Don's *digitally defensive* remark just now prompts me to
add that, other than in this queer little *digicentric* newsgroup, there is
no actual competition between CD and LPs out in the real world with real
people and, indeed, many 'vinylistas' will buy both - one for serious,
appreciative listening and one for 'rough and ready' or playing in the car
or somesuch.

(I leave you to guess which way round!! ;-)

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

Actually, seeing Don's *digitally defensive* remark just now prompts me to
add that, other than in this queer little *digicentric* newsgroup, there
is no actual competition between CD and LPs out in the real world with
real people and, indeed, many 'vinylistas' will buy both - one for
serious, appreciative listening and one for 'rough and ready' or playing
in the car or somesuch.

(I leave you to guess which way round!! ;-)


It's interesting to buy one of each for comparison. Sometimes there
is little to choose between them musically. But quite often I prefer
the way the vinyl has been presented. Once again I quote
Basie/Ray Charles as a comparison.

I dislike the overall mastering compression and EQ so common
on CD's which pushes the vocalist back into the band", but I
can appreciate why it is done, and that it probably sounds OK
on the iPod or in the car.

Iain

In article , Iain Churches
wrote:

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...

CD = In stock.

LP = Sold out.

Indeed:-)

Seems strange to me if you are pleased that the LP is unavailable now
you have a copy. But then I tend to acquire recordings to enjoy
listeing to the music. Not for the sake of feeling I have 'collected'
some item that is 'rare' and others might desire but be unable to
obtain.

Jim. I wrote a single word "Indeed" and you managed a negative, and
totally incorrect interpretation :-(

OK. So my 'if' statement returned FALSE. :-)

If you want to "acquire recordings to enjoy listening to the music" you
can still buy the CD:-)

No-one these days wants to bother with vinyl (rifle shots and breakast
cereals, snap crackle pop)

Or do they?

I assume that is a rhetorical question for the purposes of debate. :-)

The fact that the vinyl pressings were sold out on the day of release,
and the CD is still available many months later speaks volumes:-)

Hard to know what 'volumes' it speaks unless you know the 'volumes' of the
numbers of each type produced or sold. 10 LPs might sell out faster than
10,000 CDs. So unless you know the numbers it is unclear what it means
beyond "some people bought the LP". And of course they may be pressing
batches of CDs to maintain stock, anyway. But either way, if the format
someone wants is 'sold out' then that is something to regret since they are
denied their personal choice.


Compare the limited edition vinyl pressings with the equivalent CD
(Count Basie/Ray Charles, is a good example) and you will find out why.

Afraid I can't comment on that example as I've not heard either version and
have no idea of how many of each format were made or sold. Presumably it
would be a marketing decision if you make a 'limited edition' to sound
different to another edition. I can appreciate why producers like doing
that. :-) ...even if it is a PITA for people who just like well-produced
music.

Must admit I have bought the first four 'new' CDs of the Beatles 'LPs'
primarily because they are 'stereo' sic whereas the orginal CDs are mono.
Plus, of course, having the old LPs (stereo and mono in most cases).

The closest I can get is two recent examples.

One was a Jimi Hendrix set sold as an 'audiophile' purchase 8 LP box
compared with 4 CDs. This despite having *fewer* songs on the LPs so as to
allow for very wide spiral pitch. Despite the high price, hype, etc, it
showed clips and pops, and noticable off-center wow on some sides. So
interesting, but hardly an advert for LP. The parts without the audible
problems sound fine. But you'd think they could have bothered to take more
care for the price, hype, etc.

The other was a Queen double LP and CD. There the LPs didn't have the
clipping imposed on the CDs by the industry idiocy with obsessively
relentless loudness. Interestingly, here the label was EMI IIRC yet they'd
done a better job on the LPs than the CDs.

So in terms of preference for 'sound' you could choose your examples to
argue irrelevantly about format. The reality in both cases was that it was
how well the items were produced/manufactured that determined the results.
Given the familiar problems with the way music companies poorly produce
physical output it is a lottery either way.

But how many of either issue, in either format, were made/sold I have no
idea. Nor do I have any idea if any of the above are still available.

TBH I don't mind which was more 'popular'. My interest would be in them
being well made, and then produced in sufficient quantity for all those who
want to have their preference. Hence I'm not really a fan of the sales
technique of the 'limited edition'. Particularly when it smells of selling
to people on the basis that they want to be 'in the club' or fearing they
would 'miss the boat' and so shell out more cash. Or selling as a 'rare
collectable' to people who won't even break the shrink-wrap.Thus maximising
profits by exploiting buyers, and leaving others unable to choose what
they'd prefer.

The Queen set was a friend's and I examined it out of curiosity as they
aren't a special favourite of mine, despite having met Brian May years ago
at an observatory. :-) The Hendrix is more to my taste, and I prefer the
CDs in this case. Mind you, I prefer some older versions of his CDs like a
USA box set that has almost no 'global' level compression compared with
more modern versions. Alas, the best set in those terms also has a 'DJ'
talking over some parts as it is a set designed for playing on US radio
stations, I guess.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

"Iain Churches" wrote in message
...

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

Actually, seeing Don's *digitally defensive* remark just now prompts me
to add that, other than in this queer little *digicentric* newsgroup,
there is no actual competition between CD and LPs out in the real world
with real people and, indeed, many 'vinylistas' will buy both - one for
serious, appreciative listening and one for 'rough and ready' or playing
in the car or somesuch.

(I leave you to guess which way round!! ;-)


It's interesting to buy one of each for comparison.


But not cheap with modern, current pressings vinyl!!


Sometimes there
is little to choose between them musically.


Dire Straits 'Brothers In Arms' CD and LP - I defy you to split them if you
have a nice, quiet (probably MC) cart which is what a lot of the 'rice
crispies & rifle shot brigade' know nothing about.


But quite often I prefer
the way the vinyl has been presented. Once again I quote
Basie/Ray Charles as a comparison.


Christ, listening to jazz on CD is worse than....

than....

WTF, it's just plain *loopy* and is the quickest way to bleach the *flavour*
out of the whole experience!!



I dislike the overall mastering compression and EQ so common
on CD's which pushes the vocalist back into the band", but I
can appreciate why it is done, and that it probably sounds OK
on the iPod or in the car.


Exactly.

(Still no Amazonians....)

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"Iain Churches" wrote in message
...

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

Actually, seeing Don's *digitally defensive* remark just now prompts me
to add that, other than in this queer little *digicentric* newsgroup,
there is no actual competition between CD and LPs out in the real world
with real people and, indeed, many 'vinylistas' will buy both - one for
serious, appreciative listening and one for 'rough and ready' or playing
in the car or somesuch.

(I leave you to guess which way round!! ;-)


It's interesting to buy one of each for comparison.


But not cheap with modern, current pressings vinyl!!

But still worth doing.
Enquiring minds need to know:-)



Sometimes there
is little to choose between them musically.


Dire Straits 'Brothers In Arms' CD and LP - I defy you to split them if
you have a nice, quiet (probably MC) cart

There are a great number of instances where this is so.
Good CD mastering is possible.

But quite often I prefer
the way the vinyl has been presented. Once again I quote
Basie/Ray Charles as a comparison.


Christ, listening to jazz on CD is worse than....

FWIW I find that jazz CDs are well mastered.


than....

WTF, it's just plain *loopy* and is the quickest way to bleach the
*flavour* out of the whole experience!!

CD has none of the pitfalls with which cutting engineers were
faced on a daily basis, so the possibility of being able produce an
accurate CD is much better. But, it seems, this is not what people
want:-(



I dislike the overall mastering compression and EQ so common
on CD's which pushes the vocalist back into the band", but I
can appreciate why it is done, and that it probably sounds OK
on the iPod or in the car.

Exactly.

I use my iPod when out with the dog on a long walk. Two birds with
one stone. I put the music I am learning on "loop"

Just a couple of days ago I got talking to another customer in a record
shop - we were looking through the same vinyl. He told me that
he had a pair of Leak TL12 amps, and B+W monitors.

I said "I have a valve amp too" too which he replied, "It's nice to
meet another serious listener.

)

Iain

In article , Iain Churches
wrote:

CD has none of the pitfalls with which cutting engineers were faced on a
daily basis, so the possibility of being able produce an accurate CD is
much better. But, it seems, this is not what people want:-(

....or rather this is what many of those who produce CDs *assume* "people
want*. So impose without giving us a choice in the matter.

I can't recall being systematically offerred a choice by the industry
between two versions of a CD. One 'clipped and compressed to the innustry
delusion' and the other without this being imposed, so having no clipping
and no excessive compression for the sake of obsessive loudness.

When people have clearly been given - in a clear and openly declared way -
a choice, and given this on enough occasions with enough variety of music
to assess, then we might be able to decide if the delusion stands up to
scrutiny.

I'm afraid that I have zero confidence in the assertions of industry
'experts' who presume 'people want' heavy compression and clipping and
treat anyone with an interest in popular music as a dimwit infant. Nor any
opinions obtained from clueless 'focus groups', 'gurus', etc, etc.

Just a couple of days ago I got talking to another customer in a record
shop - we were looking through the same vinyl. He told me that he had a
pair of Leak TL12 amps, and B+W monitors.

I said "I have a valve amp too" too which he replied, "It's nice to meet
another serious listener.

Strange. I gave up seriously listening to amplifiers some years ago. I
prefer to enjoy the music. :-)

Slainte,

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:
No-one these days wants to bother with vinyl (rifle shots and breakast
cereals, snap crackle pop)

Or do they?

The fact that the vinyl pressings were sold out on the day of release,
and the CD is still available many months later speaks volumes:-)

Speculation on a limited edition?

Compare the limited edition vinyl pressings with the equivalent CD
(Count Basie/Ray Charles, is a good example) and you will find out why.

Are you joining Kitty and endowing vinyl with some magical properties - or
is this just yet another example of poor mastering?

--
*I have a degree in liberal arts -- do you want fries with that

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:
It's interesting to buy one of each for comparison. Sometimes there
is little to choose between them musically. But quite often I prefer
the way the vinyl has been presented. Once again I quote
Basie/Ray Charles as a comparison.

I dislike the overall mastering compression and EQ so common
on CD's which pushes the vocalist back into the band", but I
can appreciate why it is done, and that it probably sounds OK
on the iPod or in the car.

Must be rolling in money. If the vinyl version is better mastered than the
CD I'd just burn a CD off it for car etc use. I certainly wouldn't pay
good money for a crap version. But perhaps that's too technical for vinyl
enthusiasts.

--
*They call it PMS because Mad Cow Disease was already taken.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Iain Churches" wrote in message
...

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"Iain Churches" wrote in message
...

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

Actually, seeing Don's *digitally defensive* remark just now prompts me
to add that, other than in this queer little *digicentric* newsgroup,
there is no actual competition between CD and LPs out in the real world
with real people and, indeed, many 'vinylistas' will buy both - one for
serious, appreciative listening and one for 'rough and ready' or
playing
in the car or somesuch.

(I leave you to guess which way round!! ;-)


It's interesting to buy one of each for comparison.


But not cheap with modern, current pressings vinyl!!

But still worth doing.
Enquiring minds need to know:-)


Not at nearly 30 quid a slice they don't!! :-)


Dire Straits 'Brothers In Arms' CD and LP - I defy you to split them if
you have a nice, quiet (probably MC) cart

There are a great number of instances where this is so.
Good CD mastering is possible.


Of course, but with 'digital' when is it ever really about quality first and
foremost?



FWIW I find that jazz CDs are well mastered.


Got a few here - never listen to them other than as MP3s on the computer
like right now, but that's a Getz track that from the album I think you
should hear.

You could play straight over many of these tracks already - like this one:

http://www.moirac.adsl24.co.uk/shown...0Tem%20Vez.mp3

(Not declicked - doesn't need it for speakers, IME)


I use my iPod when out with the dog on a long walk. Two birds with
one stone. I put the music I am learning on "loop"


See above - headphones and/or good 'buds' are not really a vinyl
transcription to digital's best friend!!




I said "I have a valve amp too" too which he replied, "It's nice to
meet another serious listener.

)


I was talking to 'The Cartridge Man' a few years ago and he said summat
about amps - I said 'Valves, I take it?'; his reply was along the lines *Of
course bloody valves*!! and the 'WTF else, dickhead (or similar)' hung
*unsaid* in the air for a few moments!!

@:-)

In article ,
Keith G wrote:
There are a great number of instances where this is so.
Good CD mastering is possible.


Of course, but with 'digital' when is it ever really about quality first
and foremost?

Methinks Kitty doesn't realise pretty well all modern vinyl releases will
have been digitally mastered. Apart from those for the loonies, obviously.

--
*One nice thing about egotists: they don't talk about other people.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.