"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Laurence Payne" wrote in message

On Wed, 3 Feb 2010 10:01:59 +0200, "Iain Churches"
wrote:

Why would one have mics within the range of drum sticks?

You've probably never recorded a proper drummer:-)

Give Arny one point here. He works with amateur drummers
flailing around with "praise" music. At least he has the
good taste not to amplify the kit.

Laurence, tf you were paying attention and not replaying your prejudices
to obtain Iain's praise, you'd know exactly why I don't close-mic the
drums at church.


Drums in church?

Are we talking *Voodoo* here....??

Arny's Baptists, sticking pins into effigies of the Pope?
:-)

"Iain Churches" wrote in message
...

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Laurence Payne" wrote in message

On Wed, 3 Feb 2010 10:01:59 +0200, "Iain Churches"
wrote:

Why would one have mics within the range of drum sticks?

You've probably never recorded a proper drummer:-)

Give Arny one point here. He works with amateur drummers
flailing around with "praise" music. At least he has the
good taste not to amplify the kit.

Laurence, tf you were paying attention and not replaying your prejudices
to obtain Iain's praise, you'd know exactly why I don't close-mic the
drums at church.


Drums in church?

Are we talking *Voodoo* here....??

Arny's Baptists, sticking pins into effigies of the Pope?
:-)


Arny's showing himself to be a mucky-minded individual - who knows quite
what he would like to stick into the Pope?

:-)

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...
"Iain Churches" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Iain Churches" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Iain Churches" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...

If you want a up-to-date Neumann U87-style microphone
from Neumann, you get a U87A or U87Ai. According to
Neumann (and what could they possibly know about
microphones that Iain and his retro-posse doesn't know
better?): "The present-day circuitry increases the operational
headroom of the U 87 Ai by supplying the bias voltages
for the capsule through a reduced resistance. The result
is a higher sensitivity of 10 dB for identical sound
pressure levels, and an improved S/N ratio of 3 dB."

It's still an 87. Same body, same cage, same capsule,
same amplifier.

If their technical information is not a lie, the electronics have been
updated.

The local agent service manager tells me there are changes
at component level - but nothing major.

If it were a different mic it would have
been given a new number not just an alpha suffix.

It's different, and the above says how. It's a U87-style microphone.

It's still an 87, and the parts catalogue contain the same numbers:-)


Picasso paintings can cost even more, but nobody confuses them with being
SOTA microphones. Price is not the sole measure of a microphone no matter
what you are saying, Iain.

What you fail to grasp is the fact that people seek
the sound of certain Neumann models. The 47
is a very good example.Take a listen to a pair on
a large string section and you will understand why.
Demand exceeds availability - hence their high value.

If the client knows audio better than the engineers he
hires, why does he hire engineers?

He knows the sound he wants, and he knows tha the Neumann
is one of the tools with which it is achieved.

Delusions of mind reading, noted.

Delusions? When you work with commercial clients
and professional producers over a period of many years,
you get to know their prefences, and try to accomodate
them.

The same goes for control room monitoring. Many clients and most
producers have their preferences.

Which may be catered to when the price is right.

The price is always right - otherwise no-one would be
there. Compared with the hiring of the orchestra for
rehearsal and recording, the rent of the location,
transport, etc etc, the actual recording team
is not that large a slice of the cake.

The church has had equipment stolen from them.

Maybe the Baptists are not as squeaky clean as they would have us
believe:-)

Comes from catering to people who have problems. Some call it being
Christian.

Maybe you should forget the mics and PA and have
surveillance cameras fitted instead:-)

The whole Baptist set up sounds like a circus, so compere is a good term.

Actually Iain, you've shown that you have no idea what "The whole Baptist
set up" is.

I know exactly what it is:-(

We have 22% VAT here, and I can buy a Neumann for far less
than the figure you quoted.

I just explained that above, Iain. I guess your dementia is acting up
again. What's unclear about "The US distributor for Neumann runs a high
end operation."

The high end operation is no different to the high-end operation
run in any other country. Except those of us who live in the EU
have a huge advantage over your goodself. We can order the
same mic at the best price, from any of 25 countries without
added customs duty or taxation Very good deals indeed can
be had in the UK and also Germany and Holland.

Why would one have mics within the range of drum sticks?

You've probably never recorded a proper drummer:-)

GWhat constitutes "[proper"?

A professional rock or jazz drummer, as opposed to a
spotty Baptist youth:-)


Mics are placed strategically but close.

Depends on the style of micing. You seem to be describing close-micing a
drum kit as if it were the only way to do it, Iain.

If you want a good rock or jazz sound, and have enough good
quality mics then close mic is pretty good. For a standard kit,
you need nine mics.

But some jobs can be done with just 1xBD and 1xOH
both panned centre, if mono drums will suffice. Or you
can add another OH, and a snare mic, and take it from
there. Double kits are fun, if you can find a drummer
who can manage one.
http://www.usedrumsets.com/images/double_bass.jpg

and two drummers even better:-))

Iain

"Iain Churches" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Iain Churches" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Iain Churches" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Iain Churches" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...

If you want a up-to-date Neumann U87-style microphone
from Neumann, you get a U87A or U87Ai. According to
Neumann (and what could they possibly know about
microphones that Iain and his retro-posse doesn't know
better?): "The present-day circuitry increases the
operational headroom of the U 87 Ai by supplying the
bias voltages for the capsule through a reduced resistance. The
result is a higher sensitivity of 10 dB for identical sound
pressure levels, and an improved S/N ratio of 3 dB."

It's still an 87. Same body, same cage, same capsule,
same amplifier.

If their technical information is not a lie, the
electronics have been updated.

The local agent service manager tells me there are changes
at component level - but nothing major.

If it were a different mic it would have
been given a new number not just an alpha suffix.

It's different, and the above says how. It's a U87-style
microphone.

It's still an 87, and the parts catalogue contain the
same numbers:-)


Picasso paintings can cost even more, but nobody
confuses them with being SOTA microphones. Price is not
the sole measure of a microphone no matter what you are
saying, Iain.

What you fail to grasp is the fact that people seek
the sound of certain Neumann models.

You're delusional Iain. I have no problem grasping the idea that both the
sound and the panache of certain Neumann models affects the behavior of many
people.

The 47
is a very good example.Take a listen to a pair on
a large string section and you will understand why.

Iain, I was raised on recordings made with U47s on the string sections.

At this point in life there is nothing about the U47 that is not
well-understood and duplicated, emulated, and even sometimes avoided by the
many 100's of not 1,000s of different models of microphones on the market
today.

I can't remember the last time I saw a non-audiophile recording that
actually was so retro and gauche as to mention the micing that was used.

Demand exceeds availability - hence their high value.

It's all about perception, Iain.

If the client knows audio better than the engineers he
hires, why does he hire engineers?

He knows the sound he wants, and he knows tha the
Neumann is one of the tools with which it is achieved.

Delusions of mind reading, noted.

Delusions?

Anybody who claims to know what everybody thinks is delusional.

When you work with commercial clients
and professional producers over a period of many years,
you get to know their prefences, and try to accomodate
them.

Of course. But Iain, your clients are a very tiny minority of the real
world. And in reality you have had few if any cleints. In this particular
marketplace, you were more of the consumer than the producer.

The same goes for control room monitoring. Many clients
and most producers have their preferences.

Which may be catered to when the price is right.

The price is always right - otherwise no-one would be
there.

Often clients don't get exactly what they want. Their whims go unsatisfied.

Compared with the hiring of the orchestra for
rehearsal and recording, the rent of the location,
transport, etc etc, the actual recording team
is not that large a slice of the cake.

Right, but many of those prices are sometimes paid regardless of whether
there is a recording or not. Therefore they have zero or minimal cost.

The church has had equipment stolen from them.

Maybe the Baptists are not as squeaky clean as they
would have us believe:-)

Comes from catering to people who have problems. Some
call it being Christian.

Maybe you should forget the mics and PA and have
surveillance cameras fitted instead:-)

It's all about managing costs and benefits, Iain. We're more careful now
about keeping things locked up and fastened down.

The whole Baptist set up sounds like a circus, so
compere is a good term.

Actually Iain, you've shown that you have no idea what
"The whole Baptist set up" is.

I know exactly what it is:-(

Ah yes Iain, just like you can read everybody's mind and know exactly what
they think.

We have 22% VAT here, and I can buy a Neumann for far
less than the figure you quoted.

I just explained that above, Iain. I guess your dementia
is acting up again. What's unclear about "The US
distributor for Neumann runs a high end operation."

The high end operation is no different to the high-end
operation run in any other country. Except those of us who live in
the EU have a huge advantage over your goodself.

Only as regards to a few things, and Neumann mics appear to be one of them.
In general, we pay in dollars what you pay in pounds or euros. As you are
fond of pointing out, the dollar exchange as been well below parity for a
while.

We can order the same mic at the best price, from any of 25 countries
without added customs duty or taxation

So can we. However the U.S. distributor is very careful to not honor the
manufacturer's warranty on grey market product.

Very good deals indeed can
be had in the UK and also Germany and Holland.

And if U.S. purchasers are so inclined, we can deal with dealers all over
Europe.

Why would one have mics within the range of drum
sticks?

You've probably never recorded a proper drummer:-)

GWhat constitutes "[proper"?

A professional rock or jazz drummer, as opposed to a
spotty Baptist youth:-)

What Iain seems to have no clue about is the long term value of church
musician gigs as an effective training ground for professional musicians.


Mics are placed strategically but close.

Depends on the style of micing. You seem to be
describing close-micing a drum kit as if it were the
only way to do it, Iain.

If you want a good rock or jazz sound, and have enough
good quality mics then close mic is pretty good. For a
standard kit, you need nine mics.

Or 1 or 2 or 16 or something in between. Depends on what you want.

But some jobs can be done with just 1xBD and 1xOH
both panned centre, if mono drums will suffice. Or you
can add another OH, and a snare mic, and take it from
there. Double kits are fun, if you can find a drummer
who can manage one.
http://www.usedrumsets.com/images/double_bass.jpg
and two drummers even better:-))

In the US we sometimes just cut to the chase and use 2 drummers and 2 kits.
I've never seen 3 each.

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Iain Churches" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Iain Churches" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Iain Churches" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Iain Churches" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...

If you want a up-to-date Neumann U87-style microphone
from Neumann, you get a U87A or U87Ai. According to
Neumann (and what could they possibly know about
microphones that Iain and his retro-posse doesn't know
better?): "The present-day circuitry increases the
operational headroom of the U 87 Ai by supplying the
bias voltages for the capsule through a reduced resistance. The
result is a higher sensitivity of 10 dB for identical sound
pressure levels, and an improved S/N ratio of 3 dB."

It's still an 87. Same body, same cage, same capsule,
same amplifier.

If their technical information is not a lie, the
electronics have been updated.

The local agent service manager tells me there are changes
at component level - but nothing major.

If it were a different mic it would have
been given a new number not just an alpha suffix.

It's different, and the above says how. It's a U87-style
microphone.

It's still an 87, and the parts catalogue contain the
same numbers:-)


Picasso paintings can cost even more, but nobody
confuses them with being SOTA microphones. Price is not
the sole measure of a microphone no matter what you are
saying, Iain.

What you fail to grasp is the fact that people seek
the sound of certain Neumann models.

You're delusional Iain. I have no problem grasping the idea that both the
sound and the panache of certain Neumann models affects the behavior of
many people.

The 47
is a very good example.Take a listen to a pair on
a large string section and you will understand why.

Iain, I was raised on recordings made with U47s on the string sections.

At this point in life there is nothing about the U47 that is not
well-understood and duplicated, emulated, and even sometimes avoided by
the many 100's of not 1,000s of different models of microphones on the
market today.

I can't remember the last time I saw a non-audiophile recording that
actually was so retro and gauche as to mention the micing that was used.

Demand exceeds availability - hence their high value.

It's all about perception, Iain.

If the client knows audio better than the engineers he
hires, why does he hire engineers?

He knows the sound he wants, and he knows tha the
Neumann is one of the tools with which it is achieved.

Delusions of mind reading, noted.

Delusions?

Anybody who claims to know what everybody thinks is delusional.

When you work with commercial clients
and professional producers over a period of many years,
you get to know their prefences, and try to accomodate
them.

Of course. But Iain, your clients are a very tiny minority of the real
world. And in reality you have had few if any cleints. In this particular
marketplace, you were more of the consumer than the producer.

The same goes for control room monitoring. Many clients
and most producers have their preferences.

Which may be catered to when the price is right.

The price is always right - otherwise no-one would be
there.

Often clients don't get exactly what they want. Their whims go
unsatisfied.

Compared with the hiring of the orchestra for
rehearsal and recording, the rent of the location,
transport, etc etc, the actual recording team
is not that large a slice of the cake.

Right, but many of those prices are sometimes paid regardless of whether
there is a recording or not. Therefore they have zero or minimal cost.

The church has had equipment stolen from them.

Maybe the Baptists are not as squeaky clean as they
would have us believe:-)

Comes from catering to people who have problems. Some
call it being Christian.

Maybe you should forget the mics and PA and have
surveillance cameras fitted instead:-)

It's all about managing costs and benefits, Iain. We're more careful now
about keeping things locked up and fastened down.

The whole Baptist set up sounds like a circus, so
compere is a good term.

Actually Iain, you've shown that you have no idea what
"The whole Baptist set up" is.

I know exactly what it is:-(

Ah yes Iain, just like you can read everybody's mind and know exactly what
they think.

We have 22% VAT here, and I can buy a Neumann for far
less than the figure you quoted.

I just explained that above, Iain. I guess your dementia
is acting up again. What's unclear about "The US
distributor for Neumann runs a high end operation."

The high end operation is no different to the high-end
operation run in any other country. Except those of us who live in
the EU have a huge advantage over your goodself.

Only as regards to a few things, and Neumann mics appear to be one of
them. In general, we pay in dollars what you pay in pounds or euros. As
you are fond of pointing out, the dollar exchange as been well below
parity for a while.

We can order the same mic at the best price, from any of 25 countries
without added customs duty or taxation

So can we. However the U.S. distributor is very careful to not honor the
manufacturer's warranty on grey market product.

Very good deals indeed can
be had in the UK and also Germany and Holland.

And if U.S. purchasers are so inclined, we can deal with dealers all over
Europe.

Why would one have mics within the range of drum
sticks?

You've probably never recorded a proper drummer:-)

GWhat constitutes "[proper"?

A professional rock or jazz drummer, as opposed to a
spotty Baptist youth:-)

What Iain seems to have no clue about is the long term value of church
musician gigs as an effective training ground for professional musicians.


Amy *playing to the gallery* again, I see...

(Thinks he's Perry Mason, I expect! :-)

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Iain Churches" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Iain Churches" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Iain Churches" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Iain Churches" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...

If you want a up-to-date Neumann U87-style microphone
from Neumann, you get a U87A or U87Ai. According to
Neumann (and what could they possibly know about
microphones that Iain and his retro-posse doesn't know
better?): "The present-day circuitry increases the
operational headroom of the U 87 Ai by supplying the
bias voltages for the capsule through a reduced resistance. The
result is a higher sensitivity of 10 dB for identical sound
pressure levels, and an improved S/N ratio of 3 dB."

It's still an 87. Same body, same cage, same capsule,
same amplifier.

If their technical information is not a lie, the
electronics have been updated.

The local agent service manager tells me there are changes
at component level - but nothing major.

If it were a different mic it would have
been given a new number not just an alpha suffix.

It's different, and the above says how. It's a U87-style
microphone.

It's still an 87, and the parts catalogue contain the
same numbers:-)


Picasso paintings can cost even more, but nobody
confuses them with being SOTA microphones. Price is not
the sole measure of a microphone no matter what you are
saying, Iain.

What you fail to grasp is the fact that people seek
the sound of certain Neumann models.

You're delusional Iain. I have no problem grasping the idea that both the
sound and the panache of certain Neumann models affects the behavior of
many people.

The 47
is a very good example.Take a listen to a pair on
a large string section and you will understand why.

Iain, I was raised on recordings made with U47s on the string sections.

At this point in life there is nothing about the U47 that is not
well-understood and duplicated, emulated, and even sometimes avoided by
the many 100's of not 1,000s of different models of microphones on the
market today.

I can't remember the last time I saw a non-audiophile recording that
actually was so retro and gauche as to mention the micing that was used.

Demand exceeds availability - hence their high value.

It's all about perception, Iain.

If the client knows audio better than the engineers he
hires, why does he hire engineers?

He knows the sound he wants, and he knows tha the
Neumann is one of the tools with which it is achieved.

Delusions of mind reading, noted.

Delusions?

Anybody who claims to know what everybody thinks is delusional.

When you work with commercial clients
and professional producers over a period of many years,
you get to know their prefences, and try to accomodate
them.

Of course. But Iain, your clients are a very tiny minority of the real
world. And in reality you have had few if any cleints. In this particular
marketplace, you were more of the consumer than the producer.

The same goes for control room monitoring. Many clients
and most producers have their preferences.

Which may be catered to when the price is right.

The price is always right - otherwise no-one would be
there.

Often clients don't get exactly what they want. Their whims go
unsatisfied.

Compared with the hiring of the orchestra for
rehearsal and recording, the rent of the location,
transport, etc etc, the actual recording team
is not that large a slice of the cake.

Right, but many of those prices are sometimes paid regardless of whether
there is a recording or not. Therefore they have zero or minimal cost.

The church has had equipment stolen from them.

Maybe the Baptists are not as squeaky clean as they
would have us believe:-)

Comes from catering to people who have problems. Some
call it being Christian.

Maybe you should forget the mics and PA and have
surveillance cameras fitted instead:-)

It's all about managing costs and benefits, Iain. We're more careful now
about keeping things locked up and fastened down.

The whole Baptist set up sounds like a circus, so
compere is a good term.

Actually Iain, you've shown that you have no idea what
"The whole Baptist set up" is.

I know exactly what it is:-(

Ah yes Iain, just like you can read everybody's mind and know exactly
what they think.

We have 22% VAT here, and I can buy a Neumann for far
less than the figure you quoted.

I just explained that above, Iain. I guess your dementia
is acting up again. What's unclear about "The US
distributor for Neumann runs a high end operation."

The high end operation is no different to the high-end
operation run in any other country. Except those of us who live in
the EU have a huge advantage over your goodself.

Only as regards to a few things, and Neumann mics appear to be one of
them. In general, we pay in dollars what you pay in pounds or euros. As
you are fond of pointing out, the dollar exchange as been well below
parity for a while.

We can order the same mic at the best price, from any of 25 countries
without added customs duty or taxation

So can we. However the U.S. distributor is very careful to not honor the
manufacturer's warranty on grey market product.

Very good deals indeed can
be had in the UK and also Germany and Holland.

And if U.S. purchasers are so inclined, we can deal with dealers all over
Europe.

Why would one have mics within the range of drum
sticks?

You've probably never recorded a proper drummer:-)

GWhat constitutes "[proper"?

A professional rock or jazz drummer, as opposed to a
spotty Baptist youth:-)

What Iain seems to have no clue about is the long term value of church
musician gigs as an effective training ground for professional musicians.


Amy *playing to the gallery* again, I see...

(Thinks he's Perry Mason, I expect! :-)

Just a quick listen to "Domine" tells you what he
really is. I laughed out loud at the bit about church
musician gigs. :-)

Iain