In article ,
David Looser wrote:
As you are no doubt well aware it's possible to detect background noise
far more easily listening on headphones than on speakers. I'm not
disputing that some computer sound cards, particularly integrated audio
on laptops, create noises that can be readily detected on headphones,
or even on speakers in a quiet room. But a theatre is not a quiet room,
my point of disagreement is whether any computer sound card (except
possibly a faulty one) creates unwanted noises so loud as to cause a
problem in the context of this thread, ie. a SFX sound system used with
a stage performance.

A theatre system may well be unused between cues, and any rubbish on it
could be distracting. I've certainly known computers that put out plenty
rubbish on their audio outputs - enough to annoy in those circumstances.
Varying 'digital buzz' would be worse than plain ol' hum.

--
*Don't squat with your spurs on *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Well David .. Two plays I saw over the lest few months were blighted one
very badly by computer generated noises.


Note the phrase "computer generated". I take that to mean the hum was
sourced from or caused by the computer system. Not a "denial" that "hum is
an analogue domain problem". Distinction between symptom and causal
mechanism.

No idea about the specific systems Tony actually worked with. However I've
certainly encountered a situation where the analogue output of a computer
generated unwanted noises on its analogue output that were due to its
internal psu or wiring - even when just listened to via headphones. So I
can't at present see any reason to doubt his practical experience simply on
the basis of a general theory.

Thats good enough Jim. In fact there were Two PC's, one had a lot of
internally generated noise due to limitations of the soundcard and the
PC itself. The other was a laptop in use and an external soundcard is
the only way to go due to space limitations!..

I once had here a Terratec Phase 22 which isn't a bad card expect that
the PC imposed its own noises on the output which was balanced. I now
have in use a Digigram albeit an elderly one which -- IIRC -- generates
its own supply rails with internal onboard DC to DC converters..

That one is quiet, very quiet and has digital AES/EBU and balanced
analogue outputs thereon but these cards aren't that cheap..

There are some good PC cards but -sometimes- the limitation is what's
going on inside the PC, not the best environ for high quality audio
especially when a large PA is hung on the output.

Hence the idea of an external card with balanced outs....



Slainte,

Jim


--
Tony Sayer

In article , Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:
In article , Iain Churches
wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...

Programs are usually written to appeal to those who think they need
all the bells and whistles - even although they never use them.



In hind sight, it would have been better to have made separate,
slimmer versions of the software tailored to each application. But
Studer was too late by this time, and Pro Tools became the standard.

Just the point I was making. If you accept MiniDisc was satisfactory for
a particular use, a prog which offered those facilities and not much
more might be very suitable for amateur theatricals. Without being
daunting at first look.

Other thing often overlooked is something like a MiniDisc or two could
well be left unattended backstage. A nice new laptop maybe not...

That was one of the reasons why I wondered if a small 'personal' mp3 player
might do for playing the sounds. Could be carried in the pocket of the user
or locked in a drawer. Or be cheap to replace if nicked/broken.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

"David Looser" wrote in
message

Balanced outputs are better certainly, but how many
external soundcards have balanced outputs?

Dozens if not 100s.

In my case the I personally own the following sound cards with balanced
outputs:

Card Deluxe
Delta 24192
Delta 1010
LynxOne
LynxTwo

But, they are all internal (PCI).

Ironically, all of the external audio interfaces that I own have only
unbalanced outputs.

Doesn't matter because I use them primarily for recording and also with
headphones.

Here are some external interfaces with balanced outputs:

M-Audio Firewire 1814
M-Audio ProFire 610
M-Audio ProFire 2626
EMu 0404
M-Audio Fasttrack Ultra
Roland UA101
Alesis IO2
Motu 828
etc.

In article , David Looser
wrote:
"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...


No idea about the specific systems Tony actually worked with. However
I've certainly encountered a situation where the analogue output of a
computer generated unwanted noises on its analogue output that were
due to its internal psu or wiring - even when just listened to via
headphones. So I can't at present see any reason to doubt his
practical experience simply on the basis of a general theory.

Would you describe those noises as "hum"? I wouldn't.

Erm... when did you hear the unwanted noises on the specific machines I was
referring to above? I don't recall you being here at the time. :-)

However, in answer to your question, "No". The most obvious problems were
audible and measurable noises on the analogue outputs whenever an event
like a HD access caused the dc lines inside the laptop to fluctuate. The
hum/buzz level was also high because the psu was working poorly. But what
was most noticable was a sort of 'clicking and rattling' when the heads of
the HD moved. To be clear I *do* mean this could be heard on the analogue
outputs. Not just mechanically. The same effect could be observed on
recordings from the analogue output.

However given how poor I have found a lot of computer psu, etc, electronics
to be, it would not surprise me at all to find some of them generate
audible hum or buzz with no need for an external 'cause' like a ground
loop. I'm sure there are some excellent machines and soundcards out there.
But from my own experience I would not trust any machine/card I did not
already know was one of that subset of all the items on sale!

As you are no doubt well aware it's possible to detect background noise
far more easily listening on headphones than on speakers.

Agreed. However I actually first noticed the effect on speakers. Then
investigated with headphones both to make it more audible and to check it
wasn't something being produced outwith the computer.

I'm not
disputing that some computer sound cards, particularly integrated audio
on laptops, create noises that can be readily detected on headphones,
or even on speakers in a quiet room. But a theatre is not a quiet room,

No. But in my experience the gain and level of the reproduced sounds in
theatres is often very high. Far higher than I would choose at home. The
sound can also be quite coloured and boomy. So what might pass notice in
some circumstances can easily become more obvious.

Our local theatre had a 'rebuild' a few years ago to tart up the place.
They installed a new sound system. Can probably sum up how awful the
results are in two comments.

The use Bose 'plastic shoebox with pipes sticking out' speakers.

The level is routinely high and hum is clearly audible. (Although lacking
other info I assume the hum is due to poor sheilding or loops or one of the
other 'usual suspects'.)

So far as I can tell they are blissfully unware of how really dire the
sound is.

I suspect they assume all patrons are either semi-deaf crumblies or young
people who expect everything to sound LOUD.

my point of disagreement is whether any computer sound card (except
possibly a faulty one) creates unwanted noises so loud as to cause a
problem in the context of this thread, ie. a SFX sound system used with
a stage performance.

Well, given my experience with a local theatre I'd expect the sound level
to easily make any such problems audible. I'm pretty sure I'd have easily
heard the effects I found on my old laptop to be audible in the theater.

I'm quite sure people can make systems that don't have these problems. But
I am also quite sure that some machines and the way they get used in public
venues *will* show audible problems as a result of poor equipment and use.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

In article , tony sayer

wrote:
..

That one is quiet, very quiet and has digital AES/EBU and balanced
analogue outputs thereon but these cards aren't that cheap..

There are some good PC cards but -sometimes- the limitation is what's
going on inside the PC, not the best environ for high quality audio
especially when a large PA is hung on the output.

Hence the idea of an external card with balanced outs....

I now have a number of computers in the house with a wide range of
hardware. I would not use any of the analogue outputs from any of them for
serious listening. Yet with an external DAC they can provide excellent
results. The snag is then obviously the cost, etc, of an external DAC.

Afraid my own experience of 'computer audio' makes me rather doubt the
general level of quality from their analogue outputs. I fear the problem
here is an extreme version of the one with hi fi mags. No-one in the
computer mags is actually carefully testing this on a routine basis to a
high standard. So makers cheerfully get away with things.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in
message
In article
, Arny
Krueger wrote:
As does MiniDisc - one of the things which attracted me
to it as a replacement for 1/4" tape and NAB cart
machines etc for SFX use.

The continued discussion of MD mystefies me.

Because it was first mentioned as being ideal for the job?

Because it is obsolete. Becuase I have a MD recorder that has been sitting
on the shelf for over 5 years. Because I'm on my second generation of
replacements for it.

Of course things have moved on - but if it was fine then
it will still be fine now.

By modern standards MD was never fine.

You're welcome to your opinion - no matter how wrong it
is.

In this case I'm 100% correct. As soon as something better came along, MD
was dropped by the marketplace like a hot potato. If it wasn't dying fast
enough, Sony drove a spike through its heart with an acute attack of DRM.

For example, modern standards for portable digital media include the absence
of moving parts. As much as I think its a useless format for audio
recording, another requirement is 24/96 PCM. To be a professional tool it
needs to handle professional microphones with professional Phantom power.

Does anyone do software designed for this sort of use?

If CEP is "too powerful", then Audacity must be about
right.

Too complicated too for what is needed.

Prove it.

Cool Edit etc are just too complicated, IMHO, for
someone who just wants something basic.

The trouble with "something basic" is that people's
applications often grow with their understanding of the
problem at hand.

Programs are usually written to appeal to those who think
they need all the bells and whistles - even although they
never use them.

I'm trying to remember what feature CEP has that I've never used. I'm
stitting here looking at its command menu. I've used everything on it, and
down several levels.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in
message

Just the point I was making. If you accept MiniDisc was
satisfactory for a particular use, a prog which offered
those facilities and not much more might be very suitable
for amateur theatricals. Without being daunting at first
look.

The key word is "was". As in the past.

"Iain Churches" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"p.mc" wrote in message

Hi all

I'm new to this group and was hoping to get some sound
advice from here.
I've been with an amatuer theatre for the last few years
providing bespoke sfx for their productions. I've been
using minidisc format for most of the time untill
recentley I invested in a dual cd player
http://www.numark.com/cdn35

What you really should have done is moved into the 21st
century, and started using a computer as your delivery
platform for SFX. But, the CD format is not all that bad.

The most annoying thing I found was;

1...How to remove the silence bit and still have the
unit autopause. (it's annoying when you have some
cues pretty close together, but it adds 2 to 5 secs before
next track can play)

+1 to all the other people who pointed out that you need
to learn how to do digital audio editing.

It doesn't take a degree in rocket science or all of the
hardware at Cape Canaveral. In fact all you need is:

(1) Just about any modern PC, even a laptop.

(2) Hardware and software that will allow you to load
audio from the various delivery sources that you use.
(a) The internet
(b) CDs
(i) EAC freeware for pulling digital audio files
off of audio CDs (ii) Audacity freeware is a
good servicable audio editor for your purposes

(c) DVDs
(i) FFMPEG and other freeware video editing
software (ii) Adobe Premiere Elements

(3) Hardware and software for re-encoding your finished
work into a delivery format.
(i) Nero

2...How to stop some tracks playing a millisecond of the
neaxt track just before autopausing.

Track marks and burning software that honors them.

I use mixcraft to edit and produce my sfx, which adds
approx 3 sec silence to the end of the saved file, and
CD burning software adds approx 2 sec silence to the
beggining of a track.

It doesn't have to be that way. Nero CD burning software
for example has an option for not inserting the 2 second
silence.
Is there a workaround, or can these points be resolved
with CD media?

I know dual mp3 players and HDD tech would do the job,
but I need to get the most using CD media with this
unit.

I did that for a number of years before I moved on.

The superset of what you are doing is basically the same
thing but also with video. I've been doing that for the
past 3 years at church. But, I still remember the
audio-only days.

Professional SFX libraries, Hollywood Edge, Sound Ideas,
De Wolfe etc etc, issue material on CD, so professional
installations still use accurately cueable CD players to
spin these effects in on the fly.

I'm you are doing a theatrical presentation, you're going to need that
collection of SFX to be only the items you need, and readily playable in the
order desired. That precludes playing from commerical library distribution
media. IOW, as the OP has pointed out, re-recording is in order.


So much for Arny "moving on" :-)

So much for Iain having any real-world experience with SFX and drama.

But for the OP's use, SFX from something like CEP
(Audition) would be ideal.

CEP has no SFX library that merits mention for this application.

You can place visible markers
accurately in the sequencer, and then cue to them with
pinpoint accuracy.

Been there, done that, and wouldn't use it as a production tool during an
actual dramatic presenation or rehearsal on a bet.

Burning to CD would seem unneccessary in this instance.

So speaks the voice of ignorance.

If you work from a CD library, the required tracks could
be extracted straight into the CEP.

That is good as far as it goes. Then you use CEP to burn a CD or otherwise
prepare a sequence of files for your actual presentation device.

A custom-burned CD can work well, but there are other modern alternatives
(such as an ordinary Walkman) that can be equally effective.

BTW, the portable digital player word for a script of media to be played is:
"Playlist".

Just drag and drop your SFX from the distribution media onto your portable
digital player and click up a playlist for it.

"David Looser" wrote in
message
"Iain Churches" wrote

Professional SFX libraries, Hollywood Edge, Sound Ideas,
De Wolfe etc etc, issue material on CD, so professional
installations still use accurately cueable CD players to
spin these effects in on the fly.


In my experience with amateur dramatics SFXs as supplied
were rarely suitable without some sort of editing, to
make them longer or shorter, repeat a certain number of
times etc.

Exactly.

So whilst CD is a perfectly satisfactory
medium for distribution and storage of effects, I
question it's suitability for playout.

Well the distribution media has questionable suitability, to say the least.

If you edit up the longer or shorter, repeated, files and burn them to a CD,
then the CD can be played during the actual performance or rehearsal.