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Is music important?



 
 
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  #1 (permalink)  
Old August 24th 10, 12:00 PM posted to uk.rec.audio
Ian Iveson
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Posts: 244
Default Is music important?

Does music have a purpose? Is it important? Should an audio
engineer know?

Any ideas, and links, appreciated.

Ian


  #2 (permalink)  
Old August 24th 10, 12:28 PM posted to uk.rec.audio
Dave Plowman (News)
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Posts: 5,872
Default Is music important?

In article CvOco.686$Hu7.100@hurricane,
Ian Iveson wrote:
Does music have a purpose?


To provide enjoyment etc?

Is it important?


More to some than others. As a generalization, the music *you* like is
important. The sort you don't can be a big source of annoyance.

Should an audio engineer know?


Of course.

Others here have said that a good audio engineer must have an in depth
knowledge of music - like say a formal qualification. My experience says
this isn't so - some of the best music sound balancers I've known had no
such degree. But with just about every man and his dog having further
education these days and the lack of work based training this may change
simply by default.

Any ideas, and links, appreciated.


Are these for, say, a youngster wanting to enter the industry?

--
*I just got lost in thought. It was unfamiliar territory*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
  #3 (permalink)  
Old August 24th 10, 12:43 PM posted to uk.rec.audio
Arny Krueger
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Default Is music important?

"Ian Iveson" wrote in
message news:CvOco.686$Hu7.100@hurricane

Does music have a purpose?


Music seems to satisfy some very basic human needs.

The book "This is your Brain on Music" provides a ton of well-documented
supporting evidence for that idea.

Is it important?


Yes, which seems self-evident. Music and music-makers seem to have a firm
niche in just about every human social pattern.

Should an audio engineer know?


Knowing not only what to do but why to do seems to be generally helpful.



  #4 (permalink)  
Old August 24th 10, 01:00 PM posted to uk.rec.audio
David Looser
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Posts: 1,883
Default Is music important?

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Ian Iveson" wrote in
message news:CvOco.686$Hu7.100@hurricane

Does music have a purpose?


Music seems to satisfy some very basic human needs.

The book "This is your Brain on Music" provides a ton of well-documented
supporting evidence for that idea.

Is it important?


Yes, which seems self-evident. Music and music-makers seem to have a firm
niche in just about every human social pattern.


Though interestingly some Muslims claim that music is "forbidden" by God.
Seems odd for something that seems to be as essentially human as language
is.

Should an audio engineer know?


Depends what you mean by "audio engineer". If you mean a recording engineer
in the music recording business - yes, otherwise not necessarily.


David.


  #5 (permalink)  
Old August 24th 10, 01:21 PM posted to uk.rec.audio
Arny Krueger
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Posts: 3,850
Default Is music important?

"David Looser" wrote in
message
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Ian Iveson" wrote in
message news:CvOco.686$Hu7.100@hurricane

Does music have a purpose?


Music seems to satisfy some very basic human needs.

The book "This is your Brain on Music" provides a ton of
well-documented supporting evidence for that idea.

Is it important?


Yes, which seems self-evident. Music and music-makers
seem to have a firm niche in just about every human
social pattern.


Though interestingly some Muslims claim that music is
"forbidden" by God.


So do some Christian Denominations. The prohibition of music by Christian
denominations seems strange given the Bible's treatment of music. The usual
Christian canon of holy writings includes the book of Psalms, which can be
translated "songs".

Seems odd for something that seems to
be as essentially human as language is.


Not only that, but music is a kind of language, even just instrumental
music.

Should an audio engineer know?


Depends what you mean by "audio engineer". If you mean a
recording engineer in the music recording business - yes,
otherwise not necessarily.


I haven't met an audio engineer who does not seem to think that music has a
purpose. Some of them can be quite eloquent about it, even those who are far
removed from actual music production.




  #6 (permalink)  
Old August 24th 10, 02:07 PM posted to uk.rec.audio
Dave Plowman (News)
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Posts: 5,872
Default Is music important?

In article ,
Arny Krueger wrote:
Depends what you mean by "audio engineer". If you mean a
recording engineer in the music recording business - yes,
otherwise not necessarily.


I haven't met an audio engineer who does not seem to think that music
has a purpose. Some of them can be quite eloquent about it, even those
who are far removed from actual music production.


Probably because playing with a multi-mic setup on music is fun for any
audio engineer, even although it may not be his choice of music to listen
to for pleasure.

--
*I finally got my head together, now my body is falling apart.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
  #7 (permalink)  
Old August 24th 10, 02:46 PM posted to uk.rec.audio
David Looser
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Posts: 1,883
Default Is music important?

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Arny Krueger wrote:
Depends what you mean by "audio engineer". If you mean a
recording engineer in the music recording business - yes,
otherwise not necessarily.


I haven't met an audio engineer who does not seem to think that music
has a purpose. Some of them can be quite eloquent about it, even those
who are far removed from actual music production.


Probably because playing with a multi-mic setup on music is fun for any
audio engineer, even although it may not be his choice of music to listen
to for pleasure.


Well as I said before, it depends what you mean by "audio engineer". You
clearly think it means "recording engineer" with access to multi-mike
set-ups and a source of live music. I suggest that there are many, many
audio engineers who never get anywhere near a recording studio, indeed never
do any recording at all.


David.


  #8 (permalink)  
Old August 24th 10, 02:22 PM posted to uk.rec.audio
Jim Lesurf[_2_]
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Posts: 2,668
Default Is music important?

In article , Arny
Krueger
wrote:
"David Looser" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Ian Iveson" wrote in message
news:CvOco.686$Hu7.100@hurricane

Does music have a purpose?

Music seems to satisfy some very basic human needs.

The book "This is your Brain on Music" provides a ton of
well-documented supporting evidence for that idea.

Is it important?

Yes, which seems self-evident. Music and music-makers seem to have a
firm niche in just about every human social pattern.


I guess it is possible to live without music. But the absence would for me
changing 'living' into 'existing and not yet being dead'. It isn't simply
that it is enjoyable. So are gardening or eating chocolate. It also is a
form of human communication that can convey things that can't be put into
words. Perhaps as close as we can get to telepathy for some aspects of the
nature of being a sentient human in a real universe.

Though interestingly some Muslims claim that music is "forbidden" by
God.


So do some Christian Denominations. The prohibition of music by
Christian denominations seems strange given the Bible's treatment of
music. The usual Christian canon of holy writings includes the book of
Psalms, which can be translated "songs".


I'd suspect is also a rather strange idea for most of those who say they
are 'Muslim' as well. I'd guess that the problem is that some people
develop their own ideas and 'project' them on to a chosen 'religion'. In
effect they hijack 'God' to bolster their own ideas. This isn't a failure
of the 'mainstream' beliefs under such names. More a problem of some
indivuals and sects passing off their own ideas using them as a 'brand
name' to try and ensure they can demand they are right and no-one can dare
challenge them because they would be challenging 'God'.

Alas, it can then easily be used to criticise others who simply *don't*
accept such extreme ideas as being Christian/Musilim/etc ones.

We recently had a religious sect in town for a week. They made a lot of
noise (albeit less so than last year). There were complaints. Out of
curiosity I had a look for info about their sect and it was a mix of weird
and worrying from my POV. IIUC In essence it seems that they are the
opposite of the 'ban music' idea. Instead they *exploit* 'music' in various
forms with the aim of inducing states of 'consciousness' sic that cause
people to have 'revelations', etc. i.e the approach of shamans
voodoo-doctors down the centuries. Yet it claims to be a 'christian' sect.

To me that seems just as weird and unrepresentitive of the religion they
say they believe in as others who want to 'ban' music.

Moving more OT: Did any others seen last week's program by Dawkins on
'Faith Schools' in the UK. I found that weird as well. Not because of what
he said. But the comments by some of those in 'education'. Again it did
give me the impression that 'education' was being used as a brand name or
cover story to deflect any criticism of what they actually were doing.


Seems odd for something that seems to be as essentially human as
language is.


Not only that, but music is a kind of language, even just instrumental
music.


Yes. The curio for me is the extent to which someone can sense meanings (or
moved in particular ways) without necessarily having them explicitly
explained. Yet others find unfamiliar types of music unpleasant or
baffling. What intrigues me is the extent to which a 'new to the listener'
type of music excites rejection by some whilst moving and fascinating
others.

For example. I have liked various types of music like Indian classical
music from the first time I heard it. Yet others don't. You can make
similar points about 'Jazz' or all sort of other forms of music.

This is probably partly a matter of what you were immersed in from young,
so based partly in cultural background or habituation. But when listening
to music of types that are unfamiliar in some cases the result is liked and
moves, but in others not. The curio is how to explain this variability.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

  #9 (permalink)  
Old August 24th 10, 09:23 PM posted to uk.rec.audio
David Looser
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Posts: 1,883
Default Is music important?

"Jim Lesurf" wrote

I'd guess that the problem is that some people
develop their own ideas and 'project' them on to a chosen 'religion'. In
effect they hijack 'God' to bolster their own ideas. This isn't a failure
of the 'mainstream' beliefs under such names. More a problem of some
indivuals and sects passing off their own ideas using them as a 'brand
name' to try and ensure they can demand they are right and no-one can dare
challenge them because they would be challenging 'God'.


I'm sure that's true, but they usually have some quote or other from their
"Holy Book" to back them up. In the case of Muslim objection to music I
first heard about this from a radio programme a few weeks ago and was so
intrigued that I spent a while trawling the internet for more background.
There was plenty of it, and some trenchant views on both sides of the
argument. I gather there is a line from the Koran which can be read as
condemning the playing of musical instruments, if you want to read it that
way.

Instead they *exploit* 'music' in various
forms with the aim of inducing states of 'consciousness' sic that cause
people to have 'revelations', etc. i.e the approach of shamans
voodoo-doctors down the centuries.


Which reflects some of the arguments made by the "anti-music" Muslims.
Clearly music *can* be used in ways which many religious people would regard
as "dangerous". But to condemn all music because of that seems to me to be a
considerable over reaction. But that does seem to be the Islamic way, if in
doubt forbid it rather than trust the followers to negotiate their way
through the benefits and dangers, a way that Islam shares with Puritan
Christianity. My problem with that attitude is that it infantilises people.

Moving more OT: Did any others seen last week's program by Dawkins on
'Faith Schools' in the UK.


I missed it, but have just found it on 4oD.

I found that weird as well. Not because of what
he said. But the comments by some of those in 'education'. Again it did
give me the impression that 'education' was being used as a brand name or
cover story to deflect any criticism of what they actually were doing.


The science teacher in the Islamic school who taught evolution, but then
said none of here pupils believed it, was somewhat worrying. But the most
interesting bit of that programme, IMO, was at the end, where children were
being asked which explanation for natural phenomena they preferred. It
reminded me of a recent conversation I had with my daughter (who is no more
a "believer" than I am) about what a cat's tail is for. I kept trying to say
that it didn't have to be "for" anything, it just happens to be there. It
seems humans always want to find a purpose in nature which simply isn't
there.

With apologies for the OT post :-)

David.


  #10 (permalink)  
Old August 31st 10, 12:55 PM posted to uk.rec.audio
Ian Iveson
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Posts: 244
Default Is music important?

Arny Krueger wrote:

Does music have a purpose?

Music seems to satisfy some very basic human needs.

The book "This is your Brain on Music" provides a ton of
well-documented supporting evidence for that idea.


Interesting. Looking at that and a brace of "you may also
like" suggestions from Amazon, it appears there is a body of
theory around what we might call "psychoacoustics"...the
psychology of sound and music. For me, it kind of misses the
crucial issue, or perhaps just loses it in a heap of detail.
I would expect anthropology and sociology to envisage a
bigger picture with a different sense of "purpose".

Is it important?

Yes, which seems self-evident. Music and music-makers
seem to have a firm niche in just about every human
social pattern.


Not self-evident for those who only listen to pop, or who
have only superficial knowledge of the world in general. A
recent visitor to my house seemed taken by the valve
amplifiers, so I asked if she was interested in music. "I'm
not obsessed" she replied. I guess she meant "no".

Though interestingly some Muslims claim that music is
"forbidden" by God.


So do some Christian Denominations. The prohibition of
music by Christian denominations seems strange given the
Bible's treatment of music. The usual Christian canon of
holy writings includes the book of Psalms, which can be
translated "songs".


The link between music and religion is an interesting issue.
For some reason I never worked out I was sent to Catholic
schools, one a convent and the other a gothic pile with
Jesuits. God, for fear of terminal unpopularity, had
recently decided to relax the rules of language and music,
but my bunch of
fundamentalists, bent on self-anihilation, stuck to the old
ways. Latin plainsong covered the ground between dreary and
angelic, but couldn't do happy or sad. For christmas we were
allowed some jolly polyphony.

http://mb-soft.com/believe/txc/plainson.htm

AFAIK, plainsong was used not just because it harked back to
the halcyon days of the Christian church, but because it
adhered to a set of rules that made it godly. No lewd
intervals, heathen rythms, or whimsical elaboration. Unlike
folk music, which was only banned in churches AFAIK, it
wasn't the kind of thing you could dance to.

Unlike, at a guess, your bunch, Arny, who praise the lord
more
joyously. Modern Christians reflect a more
sophisticated society, in which complex divisions of labour
achieve unity through the advanced management technology of
industrial organisation. I imagine four-part polyphonic
harmony with funky freeform soloists soaring over the top. I
guess the problem for Catholics is that this merging of folk
and religious music questions the distinction between heaven
and earth. Consequently, nothing is sacred.

Listening to the wailing from several local mosques, it
sounds like plainsong rules apply in the world of Islam, but
the fact that Bradford is otherwise a musical vacuum has
more to do with the particular demographic of its dominant
population than Islam itself. There used to be a Bradford
Festival, with music from all over the Islamic world.
Although Banghra seems to be frowned upon by the orthodox
older folk, it's popular with youth and tolerated by the
mullahs. Sufi music

http://folkpunjab.com/nusrat-fateh-a...khian-da-chaa/

OTOH, seems to be reviled by all orthodox muslims.
Naturally, where there's sufi there should be whirling
dervishes...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJIofU-0jC0

....who's dance is explained, in an intriguing exposition of
the dielectical principle of the "interpenetration of
opposites", as a pursuit of not-moving:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jeca3...eature=related

The big thing with Islamic youth in Bradford now is gangster
hip-hop, but in towns where muslim youth is better educated,
I gather there is some progressive music going on. A
little further afield, France has plenty Arabs who do stuff
like

http://www.last.fm/music/IAM/_/La+Saga

which, for modernity at least, beats any Christian music
I've heard. At the Divine Mission of Christ the Saviour,
Bradford's last stand, they're into heavy metal.

Seems odd for something that seems to
be as essentially human as language is.


The banning of pop music would be part of a bid for total
control: a society in which everyone must consider
themselves in church wherever they are. An attempt to make
everything sacred, which to Christianity's traditional
dualism is a contradiction in terms. Not even the most
fundamental catholics, AFAIK, tried to make people speak
Latin, or constrain themselves to plainsong, at home or in
the street.

Not only that, but music is a kind of language, even just
instrumental music.


This is where the crux is, I imagine. But where's the
Music/English dictionary? Linguists have, sensibly IMO,
drawn a line. Are there several languages of music, I
wonder, or is it universal?

Transcendental, perhaps. Whereas English is the language of
individuals within a society, music is the sound of society
itself. Just as the cells in our bodies can't understand
English, we can't understand music.

Should an audio engineer know?


Depends what you mean by "audio engineer". If you mean a
recording engineer in the music recording business - yes,
otherwise not necessarily.


I haven't met an audio engineer who does not seem to think
that music has a purpose. Some of them can be quite
eloquent about it, even those who are far removed from
actual music production.


How does that sense of purpose manifest itself in the work
of the engineer? Does it guide him, or merely spur him on?

Ian


 




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