To reverb or not?
 

"Iain Churches" wrote in message
...

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

Yer, 'tis - a nalto. This one in fact:

http://www.moirac.adsl24.co.uk/showntell/Selmer.jpg

Swim wanted to max out the sax thing for once and for all and went for
this rather pricey but nice Selmer. Cab't fault the tone, it sounds
beautiful and Moira says it plays like a dream - big step up from the
worthy but somewhat agricultural eBayArbiter she started out on.


I am glad that you also just 'appened to turn the strap
in the pic to show the Paris logo:-)

All Selmers are not born equal.


The logo on the strap was purely accidental I promise you!

Of course, of course:-)


You are right that Selmers vary in what they offer at a wide range of
price breaks - Moira went for a 'Reference 54' (I think it is) at the low
end of the professional range which can go up to many thousands of
pounds.

Morning Keith.



Morning Iain.



There was a story circulating that Selmer Paris are trying to get
exclusive use of the Selmer name, as the French saxophones are
so much better (the French say) than those made in the USA. The
connection dates back to the days when Alexander Selmer who
had left France to play in an orchestra in NY, opened a small
shop to sell instruments, clarinets and saxophones made by his
brother Henri Selmer in Paris. The US market was huge, and
so it made good sense to manufacture there also. It has recently
been suggested that Semer US go back to using the name Conn
a company which they took over years ago.

Most of the Chinese saxophones are blatant Selmer copies at
less than 1/10th of the price. It will be interesting so see if the
Chinese product last as well as the vintage American and French
saxes still in use today. It well may be that in a few years from
now the pads will be leaking like sieves and needle springs
pinging off in all directions. The chap I sit next to in the big
band plays a fabulous-sounding tenor made in 1917.



I gather the thing with the 'Arbiter London' alto (order enough of them and
you could have any name you wanted on them) was as much about the way the
thing played as the sound it made - which wasn't half bad for an instrument
that cost virtually nowt. It certainly looked quite well constructed with
nothing loose that shouldn't have been!

To reverb or not?
 

"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 27 Nov 2010 10:28:49 +0200, "Iain Churches"
wrote:


"Keith G" wrote in message
...

Yer, 'tis - a nalto. This one in fact:

http://www.moirac.adsl24.co.uk/showntell/Selmer.jpg

Swim wanted to max out the sax thing for once and for all and went for
this rather pricey but nice Selmer. Cab't fault the tone, it sounds
beautiful and Moira says it plays like a dream - big step up from the
worthy but somewhat agricultural eBayArbiter she started out on.


I am glad that you also just 'appened to turn the strap
in the pic to show the Paris logo:-)

All Selmers are not born equal.


The logo on the strap was purely accidental I promise you!

Of course, of course:-)


You are right that Selmers vary in what they offer at a wide range of
price breaks - Moira went for a 'Reference 54' (I think it is) at the
low
end of the professional range which can go up to many thousands of
pounds.

Morning Keith.

There was a story circulating that Selmer Paris are trying to get
exclusive use of the Selmer name, as the French saxophones are
so much better (the French say) than those made in the USA. The
connection dates back to the days when Alexander Selmer who
had left France to play in an orchestra in NY, opened a small
shop to sell instruments, clarinets and saxophones made by his
brother Henri Selmer in Paris. The US market was huge, and
so it made good sense to manufacture there also. It has recently
been suggested that Semer US go back to using the name Conn
a company which they took over years ago.

Most of the Chinese saxophones are blatant Selmer copies at
less than 1/10th of the price. It will be interesting so see if the
Chinese product last as well as the vintage American and French
saxes still in use today. It well may be that in a few years from
now the pads will be leaking like sieves and needle springs
pinging off in all directions. The chap I sit next to in the big
band plays a fabulous-sounding tenor made in 1917.

Iain


I used to do rapporteur work for ETSI (the European radio telecomms
standards body). One of my colleagues there was an old Swiss chap who
sat on the woodwind bench for the Suisse Romande. He was a fanatic
about all things wind - and also an engineer of some note. He insisted
that no woodwind instrument straight from the manufacturer was
playable. His big gripe was the way the pads make contact with the
holes. I guess he had a point when he said that they never lifted off
dead straight, but one side came away first, resulting in a slight
"chiff" that shouldn't be there. He said you had to dismantle every
valve and replace all of the cork pads, having ground the hole lips
flat. Then with the valve back in place, gently close it and reflow
the solder holding it to the key. Only then would the valve work
properly. He reckoned that even a cheap instrument could be made to
sound good this way.

He was a loony, though.


All that sort of thing is supposed to be checked and adjusted on a Selmer
from Wood Wind And Reed Cambridge - another reason for going up a couple of
grades with the instrument chosen.

To reverb or not?
 

"Brian Gaff" wrote in message
...
Very well designed and subtle reverb can make things sound better as we
are used to hearing normal acoustics in rooms. The dry sound tends to make
one listen for mechanical noises from instruments and other things.
However some very naff sounding reverbs can be used that sound like they
are just one single short term echo effect rather than the 'room' effect
which is needed.

Brian


Good points well made, Brian. The consensus appears to be a little tasteful
reverb is preferable to the dry original in many, if not most instances.

To reverb or not?
 

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"Brian Gaff" wrote in message
...
Very well designed and subtle reverb can make things sound better as we
are used to hearing normal acoustics in rooms. The dry sound tends to
make one listen for mechanical noises from instruments and other things.
However some very naff sounding reverbs can be used that sound like they
are just one single short term echo effect rather than the 'room' effect
which is needed.

Brian


Good points well made, Brian. The consensus appears to be a little
tasteful reverb is preferable to the dry original in many, if not most
instances.

Added to which a little tasteful reverb is timeless,
unlike the other fashionable effects such as
delay/reverb/gate combinations which go *out*
of fashion very quickly, and as Brian points out,
soon start to sound naff in the extreme.

Iain

To reverb or not?
 

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

I gather the thing with the 'Arbiter London' alto (order enough of them
and you could have any name you wanted on them) was as much about the way
the thing played as the sound it made - which wasn't half bad for an
instrument that cost virtually nowt. It certainly looked quite well
constructed with nothing loose that shouldn't have been!


They are indeed amazing value for money - getting towards
the "disposable saxophone" grade, play a couple of gigs on it,
and then give it away:-)

Somehow I doubt their durability. But now the Chinese are
starting to offer quality options like French pads and Italian
springs. It's only a matter of time before they push on quality,
not price, just as the Japanese and Taiwanese have done.

My pal has a Chinese alto, and a matching straight soprano,
both with his initials hand engraved on the bell. They have
gold keys on a silver body - pretty flash. They cost Euro 175
each !

I have a Taiwanese made soprano. I chose a cheapish one to
see if I could play it, just as Moira did with her first alto.
This soprano is a stop gap to the Yanagisawa which would
be my instrument of choice, but at ten times the price.

As the result of Chinese pressure, one of Europe's finest
makers, Keilwerth who have been going since the mid
20s, have ceased manufacture.

That's sad:-(

Iain

To reverb or not?
 

"Iain Churches" wrote in message
...

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

I gather the thing with the 'Arbiter London' alto (order enough of them
and you could have any name you wanted on them) was as much about the way
the thing played as the sound it made - which wasn't half bad for an
instrument that cost virtually nowt. It certainly looked quite well
constructed with nothing loose that shouldn't have been!


They are indeed amazing value for money - getting towards
the "disposable saxophone" grade, play a couple of gigs on it,
and then give it away:-)

Somehow I doubt their durability. But now the Chinese are
starting to offer quality options like French pads and Italian
springs. It's only a matter of time before they push on quality,
not price, just as the Japanese and Taiwanese have done.

My pal has a Chinese alto, and a matching straight soprano,
both with his initials hand engraved on the bell. They have
gold keys on a silver body - pretty flash. They cost Euro 175
each !

I have a Taiwanese made soprano. I chose a cheapish one to
see if I could play it, just as Moira did with her first alto.
This soprano is a stop gap to the Yanagisawa which would
be my instrument of choice, but at ten times the price.

As the result of Chinese pressure, one of Europe's finest
makers, Keilwerth who have been going since the mid
20s, have ceased manufacture.

That's sad:-(




It is - very, but I suspect Keilworth have been badged Chinese manufacture
for quite some time now. Could be wrong.

To reverb or not?
 

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

OK. I added a little reverb called 'Bright Hall' to it and I also like
that (see below). Unfortunately SoudForge is a little kludgy when it
comes to this sort of thing but it seems to remain within the realms
of
good taste to me! (?)

Here they both are for a back to back for easy comparison:

http://www.moirac.adsl24.co.uk/shown...octurne%20.wav

http://www.moirac.adsl24.co.uk/shown...ght%20Hall.wav




Morning Keith.

That sounds good.
At you request, I offer the following, slightly drier:

http://www.mosabackabigband.com/Music/HN.wav

To keep the .wav file small, I took just eight bars, and
sweetened the last four, by setting the reverb time to
1.5s ( to equate to a smallish auditorium, a little smaller,
and maybe a tad less brightly lit than your bright hall:-)

Iain

To reverb or not?
 

"Iain Churches" wrote in message
...

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

OK. I added a little reverb called 'Bright Hall' to it and I also like
that (see below). Unfortunately SoudForge is a little kludgy when it
comes to this sort of thing but it seems to remain within the realms
of
good taste to me! (?)

Here they both are for a back to back for easy comparison:

http://www.moirac.adsl24.co.uk/shown...octurne%20.wav

http://www.moirac.adsl24.co.uk/shown...ght%20Hall.wav




Morning Keith.

That sounds good.
At you request, I offer the following, slightly drier:

http://www.mosabackabigband.com/Music/HN.wav

To keep the .wav file small, I took just eight bars, and
sweetened the last four, by setting the reverb time to
1.5s ( to equate to a smallish auditorium, a little smaller,
and maybe a tad less brightly lit than your bright hall:-)



Morning Iain,

Thanks for that, that is nice. Not too much sign of reverb but the sound has
good body; it flatters Moira's playing also, seeming to cool the tempo
slightly. She has heard it and likes it.

To reverb or not?
 

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"Iain Churches" wrote in message
...

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

OK. I added a little reverb called 'Bright Hall' to it and I also like
that (see below). Unfortunately SoudForge is a little kludgy when it
comes to this sort of thing but it seems to remain within the realms
of
good taste to me! (?)

Here they both are for a back to back for easy comparison:

http://www.moirac.adsl24.co.uk/shown...octurne%20.wav

http://www.moirac.adsl24.co.uk/shown...ght%20Hall.wav

That sounds good.
At you request, I offer the following, slightly drier:

http://www.mosabackabigband.com/Music/HN.wav

To keep the .wav file small, I took just eight bars, and
sweetened the last four, by setting the reverb time to
1.5s ( to equate to a smallish auditorium, a little smaller,
and maybe a tad less brightly lit than your bright hall:-)


Thanks for that, that is nice. Not too much sign of reverb but the sound
has good body; it flatters Moira's playing also, seeming to cool the tempo
slightly. She has heard it and likes it.

I chose a slightly shorter reverb time, thinking that
one would perhaps listen to a solo player in a smaller
more intimate auditorium. The reverb is deliberately
not too prominent but you can certainly hear its rounding
effect, particularly at the ends of phrases.

I set the signal fader to 0dB gain, and the reverb send to unity.
The reverb return fader was at -10dB, which means a sig to
reverb ratio of 3:1.

Iain

To reverb or not?
 

"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...

Do you have any clips that illustrate the tone difference, perhaps?

A bar or two of Flamingo, put down while the rest of you were at
matins (or relaxing in your favourite Dorchester with the TLS)

http://www.mosabackabigband.com/Musi...Comparison.wav

This comparison is between a black lacquer and gold lacquer version
of theYamaha Custom tenor saxophone 82Z.

There is just one first take segment of each, played slightly
differently to prove that they are not one and the same.

The same mouthpiece (Otto Link metal "Original Tone Master",
facing 7*) and reed (Legere Studio Cut #3) were used on both
saxes.

For the technocrats:
Mic: Neumann vintage M49 placed (closer than normal)
about 25cms above the LH keys. No EQ, no reverb.
Room: vocal (overdub) booth - fairly dead, area about
12 sq metres.

Iain