To reverb or not?
 

"Iain Churches" wrote in message
...

"Don Pearce" wrote in message

I'm going to chuck a cat in amongst the pigeons here. I've just tried
this. I recorded some speech, then applied both delay and reverb in
Adobe Audition. No matter which order I apply them, the result is
identical. In other words, they commute.

http://www.soundthoughts.co.uk/listen/delayreverb.mp3

Can you hear a difference between the two versions? If so, which do
you reckon got the delay first?

But did you do it correctly?
As mentioned above, when you delay the reverb, you do not bring the
delay back to the return signal loop, but use to feed the reverb,
the output of which is then brought back to the mix. The result
is the original dry sound, followed by a pause, but no repeat,
then the reverb.

This is probably not possible in Audition, and is the reason why
it is best experimented with using standalone hardware units.


Don. I have now had a chance to make up some clips to
illustrate the differences I was talking about.

For a sound source, I played a couple of bars of a slow
blues in F, on my trusty vibraphone (Bloke's Blues" by Victor
Feldman) at 120 bpm. I then extracted the first bar to used
as a clip.

http://www.mosabackabigband.com/Music/Example01.mp3


+++++++++++++++++++++++

Then, I added a generous dollop of reverb (just as Keith did
with his clnt clip). So here is my 1 bar clip plus reverb.

http://www.mosabackabigband.com/Music/Example02.mp3

+++++++++++++++++++++++

When working with delays, it is usually better to set up them
up to follow the same time pattern as the source. So, if the
original starts on the first beat of a 4/4 common time bar
then you may well choose to start the delay on the first beat
of the third bar.

In practice, a little "syncopated anticipation" (starting on the
last semi-quaver of the bar, instead of the first beat of the
following bar) is often used.

But normally, in the case of a 4/4 bar at 120bpm this would
mean a 4 sec delay, from the start of the first note of the
original to the start of the first note of the delay, on the first
beat of the third bar. Depending on how you choose to set
it up, the delay may be dry or use a reverb you have added
to the main signal. Or it could have its own reverb of a different
length.

To clearly demonstrate the difference between this and the other
variants, I chose to keep both signal and delay dry, both in the
centre with the delay attentuated about 10dB.

It sounds like this.

http://www.mosabackabigband.com/Music/Example03.mp3

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Next, to "reverb the delay" you simply add reverb to channel
carrying the delay return signal. For the sake of contrast,
I have kept the original signal dry. It sounds like this.

http://www.mosabackabigband.com/Music/Example03a.mp3

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Now, to delay (verb not noun) the reverb. There
are two ways to do this.

In the first, you set up a delay signal but do not
bring this back to the mix. It is used simply to
feed the reverb nothing more. Forget the digital
routing matrix for a moment and imagine an
analogue or digital patch bay with cords.
You feed some of the original signal out via
AUX send to the input of your delay line.
You do not patch the delay line output back to
the console, but send its output to feed the reverb
unit. The output of the reverb unit is of course
returned to the console. For the sake of contrast,
I have kept the original signal dry.

Alternatively, you could use the Post/Pre selector
on the Rev send, to achieve the same result. Send
some of the original signal to an AUX buss. Feed
this to the delay line, and bring its return back on
an adjacent channel. Pull this channel fader right
down to Inf attentuation, but open Rev send and
switch it to Pre to feed the reverb.

Whichever method you choose, it sounds like this:

http://www.mosabackabigband.com/Music/Example04.mp3

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

The delay Example03 is the most simple type -
single delay. You can use muliple delays and
place them at will in the stereo picture.

Finally, just for fun, using a gate, I have extracted the
first two quavers from Example01 and set them up
to repeat four times: on the third beat of the first bar,
first and third beats of the second bar, and first beat
of the third bar. You could pan the delays to any
position by using an auto panner or the console
automation. In this case they pan L to R.

http://www.mosabackabigband.com/Music/Example05.mp3

I have kept them dry, but each repeat could have
its own reverb, if you so choose, panned to a fixed
position, or to follow the signal or even in opposite
directions. They attenuate progressively.

The variations are limited only by your own
imagination.

Regards
Iain

To reverb or not?
 

In article , Iain Churches
wrote:

Now, to delay (verb not noun) the reverb.

Afraid I could not find anywhere in your descriptions you adding "(noun not
verb)" to your use of "delay" to signify that was where you think the word
was a "noun". Can you quote the case(s) where this you think this is so in
your posting above? And explain why?

My own understanding is that both "delay" and "reverb" are actions applied
to some "object" - in the forms of a stream of audio info. Thus "verbs". So
I'm still not clear why you think anyone else would follow what you've been
saying about that.

Also, did you use exactly the same time delay in every case, and exactly
the same 'reverb' process settings, etc? If not, then how would hearing any
differences in the results demonstrate your original assertion was true -
which made no statements about changing such factors? And only spoke of the
ordering of two different processes, not mentioning all the different
"ways" you have now added.


There are two ways to do this.

So again, you use one description for different things. :-)

Would it help if I quoted your original statement, and your original
explanation (which didn't mention this new "verb"/"noun" idea)?

Slainte,

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

To reverb or not?
 

"Iain Churches" wrote in message
...

"Iain Churches" wrote in message
...

"Don Pearce" wrote in message

I'm going to chuck a cat in amongst the pigeons here. I've just tried
this. I recorded some speech, then applied both delay and reverb in
Adobe Audition. No matter which order I apply them, the result is
identical. In other words, they commute.

http://www.soundthoughts.co.uk/listen/delayreverb.mp3

Can you hear a difference between the two versions? If so, which do
you reckon got the delay first?

But did you do it correctly?
As mentioned above, when you delay the reverb, you do not bring the
delay back to the return signal loop, but use to feed the reverb,
the output of which is then brought back to the mix. The result
is the original dry sound, followed by a pause, but no repeat,
then the reverb.

This is probably not possible in Audition, and is the reason why
it is best experimented with using standalone hardware units.


Don. I have now had a chance to make up some clips to
illustrate the differences I was talking about.

For a sound source, I played a couple of bars of a slow
blues in F, on my trusty vibraphone (Bloke's Blues" by Victor
Feldman) at 120 bpm. I then extracted the first bar to used
as a clip.

http://www.mosabackabigband.com/Music/Example01.mp3


+++++++++++++++++++++++

Then, I added a generous dollop of reverb (just as Keith did
with his clnt clip). So here is my 1 bar clip plus reverb.


Not clart, saxophone - alto.

Now, while we are on the topic, here's one right up your street - Jan
Garbarek, a Norwegian who plays tenor and soprano saxes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2aTayousyDE


But perhaps not quite your sort of music - no?

To reverb or not?
 

In article ,
Keith G wrote:
Church locations are fraught with problems - aeroplane noise, traffic
etc We had to temporarily stop a session at Petersham Church when a
huge flock of sparrows landed outside a window:-)


:-)

And they can be quite 'vocal' can't they? We get a flock of them in the
hedge at the edge of the garden and they are a noisy little bunch which
wouldn't do any recording session any good! In fact, I occasionally get
birdsong creeping into my own recordings, along with the odd car going
past!

Sparrows used to be about the most common bird in this part of London.
Then all but disappeared perhaps 10 years ago. And although they've
returned, in nowhere near the same numbers.

With my sort of location recording, I missed them very much. Their
constant noise helped mask other more intrusive ones.

--
*Of course I'm against sin; I'm against anything that I'm too old to enjoy.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

To reverb or not?
 

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Keith G wrote:
Church locations are fraught with problems - aeroplane noise, traffic
etc We had to temporarily stop a session at Petersham Church when a
huge flock of sparrows landed outside a window:-)


:-)

And they can be quite 'vocal' can't they? We get a flock of them in the
hedge at the edge of the garden and they are a noisy little bunch which
wouldn't do any recording session any good! In fact, I occasionally get
birdsong creeping into my own recordings, along with the odd car going
past!

Sparrows used to be about the most common bird in this part of London.
Then all but disappeared perhaps 10 years ago. And although they've
returned, in nowhere near the same numbers.

With my sort of location recording, I missed them very much. Their
constant noise helped mask other more intrusive ones.


Well, it worked for me because I never found the twittering of spuggies
intrusive whether in a TV prog or even on the odd record I've got here but
not all birdsong is acceptable in the same situation - starlings, for
instance.

To reverb or not?
 

In article ,
Jim Lesurf wrote:
My own understanding is that both "delay" and "reverb" are actions
applied to some "object" - in the forms of a stream of audio info. Thus
"verbs". So I'm still not clear why you think anyone else would follow
what you've been saying about that.

Normally described as 'adding reverberation' in my part of the pro audio
world. Obviously oh so different from the rarefied one Iain exists in in.
So always a noun. Reverberate would be the verb.

--
*Change is inevitable, except from a vending machine*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

To reverb or not?
 

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Jim Lesurf wrote:

My own understanding is that both "delay" and "reverb" are actions
applied to some "object" - in the forms of a stream of audio info. Thus
"verbs". So I'm still not clear why you think anyone else would follow
what you've been saying about that.

Normally described as 'adding reverberation' in my part of the pro audio
world. Obviously oh so different from the rarefied one Iain exists in in.
So always a noun. Reverberate would be the verb.

Try to keep up, Dave:-)

It is not the word "reverb" that is in contention, but the use of
the word "delay", which can clearly be either verb or a noun,
depending on the context.

"Delay" is a verb in the expression "delay the reverb" but
a noun in the expression "reverb the delay" Both these
terms are colloquialisms in every day use in the studio
environment. Every producer, engineer, student and
trainee understands their meaning, and the difference
between them.

Iain

To reverb or not?
 

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Keith G wrote:
Church locations are fraught with problems - aeroplane noise, traffic
etc We had to temporarily stop a session at Petersham Church when a
huge flock of sparrows landed outside a window:-)


:-)

And they can be quite 'vocal' can't they? We get a flock of them in the
hedge at the edge of the garden and they are a noisy little bunch which
wouldn't do any recording session any good! In fact, I occasionally get
birdsong creeping into my own recordings, along with the odd car going
past!

Sparrows used to be about the most common bird in this part of London.
Then all but disappeared perhaps 10 years ago. And although they've
returned, in nowhere near the same numbers.

What happened to cause a reduction in their numbers?

It's interesting how birds that live in an noisy urban
environment can alter their call/song by shortening it
and rasing the pitch slightly to make themselves better
heard.

Here we have seen a large increase in the number of owls
and hawks, due to, it is said, to an increase in the number
of field mice, voles and moles a year or two ago.

To reverb or not?
 

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

Now, while we are on the topic, here's one right up your street - Jan
Garbarek, a Norwegian who plays tenor and soprano saxes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2aTayousyDE


But perhaps not quite your sort of music - no?

Morning Keith

The hero of all jazz saxophone players, John Coltrane
was pretty "different" at times, and my taste is wide
enough to include Rahsaan Roland Kirk, so
Garbarek is well within the boundaries..

Most enjoyable. Thanks for the link.

Iain

To reverb or not?
 

"Iain Churches" wrote in message
...

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

Now, while we are on the topic, here's one right up your street - Jan
Garbarek, a Norwegian who plays tenor and soprano saxes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2aTayousyDE


But perhaps not quite your sort of music - no?

The hero of all jazz saxophone players, John Coltrane
was pretty "different" at times, and my taste is wide
enough to include Rahsaan Roland Kirk, so
Garbarek is well within the boundaries..

Most enjoyable. Thanks for the link.


PS. With regard to Coltrane. There are dozens of
good saxophonists on YouTube, but I was intrigued
by this presentation of "Giant Steps", regarded by many
as one of the most important jazz compositions/improvisations
of all time. It dates from 1960. I can remember as a
lad being fascinated by the cycle of (chord) changes
moving in thirds.

Some years ago, I got to know a chap on RAO (Arny's
former home group) who was then in his final year at Berklee.
(and now a professor a the Lincoln Centre). He recently
transcribed this solo from CD to paper for use by his
students, and kindly sent me a pdf.

It's mind boggling!
However carefully you read/compare/listen, Coltrane
does not play a single note anywhere that, despite the
freedom of the solo, does not perfectly fit the chord
tones. Pure genius.

The YouTube video has had 1.25 million hits
Take a look.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2kotK9FNEYU

Cheers
Iain