Proms, 320k, and the sound of music
 

"Chris Isbell" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 10 Aug 2011 11:58:50 +0100, tony sayer wrote:

In article , Justin Sellors
scribeth thus
snip

Re. your first point Jim, have you heard the uncompressed OGG/FLAC
broadcasts from Ceský rozhlas D-Dur?
http://radio.cesnet.cz:8000/cro-d-dur.flac


This works fine in the http/s stream of VLC

Just copy 'n paste..:)

VLC under Linux (Ubuntu) works for me. Thanks, Justin and Tony!

I also tried using a Squeezebox Touch (also Linux based). This did not
work - repeatedly displaying "Connecting.." "Buffering...".

Chris, have a look at the fifth post on this page:
http://forums.slimdevices.com/showth...=OGG+container
shows a way which might work - I've not tried it myself. There was some talk
from Slim Devices Developer "andyg" that they would look at Squeezebox
handling OggFLAC natively in the newer devices such as the Touch and Radio,
but it seems to be well down the feature request list.

Justin

Proms, 320k, and the sound of music
 

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
In article , Justin Sellors
wrote:

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
In article , Justin Sellors
wrote:

snip
Since you wrote "OGG/FLAC" I also tried '.ogg' and that also gets a
stream. Not checked yet, but I assume that it means that both stream
types are available, not that the stream codec changes without the
name extention altering.

Apparently it's a FLAC stream in an OGG container - this probably means
more to you than me!

Since OGG is not a bit-perfect format, and FLAC depends on bit-perfect
transmission, it is more likely that it is a FLAC container with an OGG file
inside.

Proms, 320k, and the sound of music
 

In article , Arny
Krueger
wrote:
"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
In article , Justin Sellors
wrote:

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
In article , Justin
Sellors wrote:

snip
Since you wrote "OGG/FLAC" I also tried '.ogg' and that also gets a
stream. Not checked yet, but I assume that it means that both
stream types are available, not that the stream codec changes
without the name extention altering.

Apparently it's a FLAC stream in an OGG container - this probably
means more to you than me!

Since OGG is not a bit-perfect format, and FLAC depends on bit-perfect
transmission, it is more likely that it is a FLAC container with an OGG
file inside.

Maybe we are talking at cross-purposes here. My understanding is that Flac
is the (lossless) data compression method/format and that OGG is the
transport format/layer ("container") which here conveys ("contains") the
FLAC data.

When I read the documents on the originator's website (fortunately for me,
in English!) they seem to have chosen Ogg as the transport layer and
flac as the compression scheme as they wanted 'open source' methods
to obtain lossless streaming. And my reading is that they think this
is what they have achieved. Maybe I've misunderstood this, so I will
check pun alert! when I get a chance...

So whereas the BBC use a Flash transport to send AAC+, the Czechs are
using Ogg to transport Flac IIUC.

My initial confusion was between 'Ogg' and 'Ogg Vorbis' as I'd fallen
into the trap of thinking one was shorthand for the other. But AIUI Vorbis
is one family of data reduction/compression scheme, and is the one most
often associated with the Ogg transport ("container") layer.

Hence "Ogg Vorbis" may be a 'lossy' system, but due to the 'Vorbis' part,
not the 'Ogg'.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

Proms, 320k, and the sound of music
 

Le 10/08/11 17:48, Jim Lesurf a écrit :

(snip)


Interesting to see that they used Linux and open software. Goes nicely
with flac, etc. Quite a contrast to the BBC's closed Flash-controlled
approach.

Slainte,

Jim


Hi Jim,
You can dispense with Aunties' proprietary radio player by pasting the
following link into you favourite player:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/listen/live/r3_aaclca.pls


--
Froggy

Baldrick: I've got this big growth in the middle of my face.
Blackadder: That's your nose, Baldrick.

(Blackadder the Third)

Proms, 320k, and the sound of music
 

On Thu, 11 Aug 2011 13:50:58 +0100, Justin Sellors wrote:

"Chris Isbell" wrote in message
...

I also tried using a Squeezebox Touch (also Linux based). This did not
work - repeatedly displaying "Connecting.." "Buffering...".

Chris, have a look at the fifth post on this page:
http://forums.slimdevices.com/showth...&highlight=OGG
+container
shows a way which might work - I've not tried it myself. There was some
talk from Slim Devices Developer "andyg" that they would look at
Squeezebox handling OggFLAC natively in the newer devices such as the
Touch and Radio, but it seems to be well down the feature request list.

Thanks for the suggestion. However, this seems to rely on running a local
Squeezebox server. Since I do not currently have a home server, this
would have to be my laptop. If this is on then I can use it to stream
directly.

My reason for wanting to use the SqueezeBox is that my laptop has a noisy
fan and disk drive (and also takes a while to start up) whereas the
SqueezeBox is just another input source to my HiFi.

Thanks,


Chris.

Proms, 320k, and the sound of music
 

froggy wrote...

You can dispense with Aunties' proprietary radio player by pasting the
following link into you favourite player:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/listen/live/r3_aaclca.pls

Thanks for the link which works in TapinRadio, an excellent Internet
radio tuner that can record the above stream as *.aac without
transcoding. Windows only,sorry Jim.
http://www.raimersoft.com/tapinradio.aspx


--
Ken O'Meara
http://www.btinternet.com/~unsteadyken/

Proms, 320k, and the sound of music
 

In article ,
UnsteadyKen
wrote:

froggy wrote...

You can dispense with Aunties' proprietary radio player by pasting the
following link into you favourite player:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/listen/live/r3_aaclca.pls

Thanks for the link

I've not yet had a chance to try it, so don't know if the above is the 320k
AAC+ stream or one of the lower streams provided for 'net radios'. If it
is, I assume that software like ffmpeg, etc, will play it OK. (You may have
noticed that I tend to prefer software that just 'does the task' rather
than have much of a GUI. All helps cut down on CPU flogging... ;- )

which works in TapinRadio, an excellent Internet
radio tuner that can record the above stream as *.aac without
transcoding. Windows only,sorry Jim.
http://www.raimersoft.com/tapinradio.aspx

That's OK. I can easily record net radio streams if I wish [1], and also
the iPlayer ones. Indeed, I've been recording proms for both later
listening and analysis purpose - similar to previous years where I've put
some of the findings onto the website. So far as I can tell, I get the same
results as the BBC when clock-rate differences are taken into account.

TBH My real objection to the BBC using Flash is that it means they are
using a closed source system which even *they* do not fully understand.
Thus it is sometimes between awkward and impossible to spot, diagnose, and
improve when you detect a flaw or what suits call an "issue"... The perils
of combining 'outsourcing' in the suit-speak sense with 'closed source' as
the deliverable.

Personally, I'd love to ban any public-funded body from doing that. All
purchased software should come with source code, and all details of all
contracts should be public knowledge. Our money. But this is a political
view, not an audio one. :-)

I don't personally mind the BBC using Flash too much from the Linux POV -
although others do object for reasons I sympathise with. What *does* bother
me is that this acts to exclude those who would prefer to use other OSs for
which no sufficiently up-to-date Flash work-alike is available. Ironic that
the BBC therefore blocks access to the iPlayer to some who prefer a UK
commercial OS to a USA one.

However I also have sympathy with the BBC. They get flak (as opposed to
flac :-) ) from all sides. So would be roundly attacked by the Daily Maul,
etc, if they dared to "undermine business" by not making the attempt to
"control" the streaming of "commercial" content. Talking to people inside
the Beeb I'm quite sure they'd love to make streams more easily and widely
accessible, and push up quality - if the suits would allow.

Slainte,

Jim

[1] FWIW for recording raw streams I find my RO box works more
conveniently. But TBH I'm generally happy with the Linux-based decoders to
LPCM for listening, etc.

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

Proms, 320k, and the sound of music
 

Le 12/08/11 10:55, Jim Lesurf a écrit :

I've not yet had a chance to try it, so don't know if the above is the 320k
AAC+ stream or one of the lower streams provided for 'net radios'.


It's the "320" stream...

That's OK. I can easily record net radio streams if I wish [1], and also
the iPlayer ones. Indeed, I've been recording proms for both later
listening and analysis purpose - similar to previous years where I've put
some of the findings onto the website.

A low down on how you do your recordings under Linux would be most
welcome. BTW what's a "RO box" when it's at home?


Personally, I'd love to ban any public-funded body from doing that. All
purchased software should come with source code, and all details of all
contracts should be public knowledge. Our money. But this is a political
view, not an audio one. :-)


Hear, Hear.
A few years ago Radio France had an .ogg stream for its online radios.
Sadly discontinued....


[1] FWIW for recording raw streams I find my RO box works more
conveniently. But TBH I'm generally happy with the Linux-based decoders to
LPCM for listening, etc.



--
Froggy

Baldrick: I've got this big growth in the middle of my face.
Blackadder: That's your nose, Baldrick.

(Blackadder the Third)

Proms, 320k, and the sound of music
 

Le 12/08/11 01:44, UnsteadyKen a écrit :

froggy wrote...

You can dispense with Aunties' proprietary radio player by pasting the
following link into you favourite player:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/listen/live/r3_aaclca.pls

Thanks for the link which works in TapinRadio, an excellent Internet
radio tuner that can record the above stream as *.aac without
transcoding. Windows only,sorry Jim.
http://www.raimersoft.com/tapinradio.aspx



I've yet to try TapinRadio.
For the moment I'm using RadioSure which also records .aac without
transcoding....

http://www.radiosure.com/

--
Froggy

Baldrick: I've got this big growth in the middle of my face.
Blackadder: That's your nose, Baldrick.

(Blackadder the Third)

Proms, 320k, and the sound of music
 

In article , froggy
wrote:
Le 12/08/11 10:55, Jim Lesurf a écrit :

I've not yet had a chance to try it, so don't know if the above is the
320k AAC+ stream or one of the lower streams provided for 'net
radios'.


It's the "320" stream...

OK, thanks. That sounds promising. :-)

That's OK. I can easily record net radio streams if I wish [1], and
also the iPlayer ones. Indeed, I've been recording proms for both
later listening and analysis purpose - similar to previous years where
I've put some of the findings onto the website.

A low down on how you do your recordings under Linux would be most
welcome.

I do this in a way that is an odd mix of the modern and very old fashioned.
I guess this is another example of my erm 'individual' approach - or do I
mean 'weird and perverse'?... 9-] But the aim is to keep things simple so
far as the 'computing' side is concerned. Complexity breeds sources of
flaws.

I use a USB device to feed the output to a dedicated digital recorder. Have
various ways to do this, but for example using something like a Halide
Bridge to get spdif from USB with reliable timing and no sample drops or
repeats. Then feed this to the spdif input of my Tascam HDP2 recorder. So
that just records the sample stream and writes it to a CF card as Broadcast
Wave Files with the samples as the LPCM data payload.

In practice I also tend to run the spdif though something like a DACMagic
(or use the DACMagic for both USB to SPDIF and as a DAC) to get a result I
listen to while recording.

I do it this way with the ALSA settings that make the data path as simple
direct and clean as I can. No 'bongs' from desktop actions or mixing with
other sound sources or arbitrary value recalculations or resamplings.

You can use ALSA to internally 'loop back' or 'tee' the output and
essentially send or copy it to a file. Eample of the "everything is a file"
philosophy of Linux. So since the *soundcard* is "just a file", all you do
in principle is give the ALSA system a different 'file name' for the output
to be delivered to. To know more about that you'd need to check out the
ALSA pages.

I think some people with suitable hardware can also just make a connection
between the spdif output and input of their soundcard and run 'arecord' or
some other basic command to record what comes from the soundcard.

However I've never really bothered with 'internal' recording or such a
physical loopback.

Many people use overlaying processes like Jack(d) or Pulse to control this
kind of thing. More GUI-friendly than ALSA. But I personally think they
cause as many extra problems as they solve because they just add
complexity.

That doesn't require any external hardware. But being old fashioned I'm
more comfortable with an external recorder. It also gives me extras like
being able to check the clock frequency and break the recording at chosen
instants. So for example, generate one file for the first half of something
and another for the second with no lost samples.

Personally, for most purposes I'm generally happy to record LPCM from what
is produced by a suitable prog/process that can convert the input stream
format. So may use in the path something like gstreamer or ffmpeg, etc. But
I have tested these in advance first to satisfy myself that they do a
decent job. If I want the raw stream I tend to use my Iyonix (see below).

With my Iyonix I wrote a small app I called (with amazing originality)
"!RadioTimes" that lets me do timed recordings of a net radio stream. In
that case usually to RAM without listening. But for obvious reasons that
doesn't work with the iPlayer as the Flash layer gets in the way. The URL
you gave may work, though, so I may give it a try when I get a chance[1]

FWIW I made a copy of !RadioTimes available to readers of 'Archive'
magazine (for RO users) some years ago. Those articles aren't yet on my
website, but I can put up a copy if any RO user is interested.

BTW what's a "RO box" when it's at home?

RO = RISC OS. The operating system that runs on my Iyonix computer. Small
light desktop and GUI with apps I like. This is an arm-cpu-specific OS that
grew out of the old 'Acorn' company. Works best on specific hardware like
'BeagleBoard'. But you can also run in using emulators. e.g. I can also run
it on my Linux boxes using 'RPCEmu'. It is also currently being converted
to open source and having some hardware generalisation and abstraction
added to make it runnable on other hardware. Look up things like 'RISC OS
Open Ltd' (ROOL) if interested.

Slainte,

Jim

[1] Presently busy with some other things. One being listening to some new
Jazz CDs! Very impressed by one I was listening to this afternoon by Gerry
Mulligan and the Concert Jazz Band. [ Poll Winners Records PWR 27264 ]

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html