"Terry Casey" wrote in message
...

snip
: My personal preference is for unswitched sockets but I'm
obviously in a
: minority as, when I wanted some 13A twin outlets last year, ass
of the
: unswitched one were (considerably) more expensive than the
switched
: variety. This seems to suggest that 'built to a price'
installations
: include switches ...
:

Depends on who is buying and from where, I doubt you were wanting
to buy a few thousand direct from MK or who ever, IYSWIM.

On Wed, 4 Jan 2012 12:09:53 -0000, "David Looser"
wrote:

I don't follow your logic that a safety device becomes a bad thing just
because some idiot somewhere will go out of his way to defeat it. The
overwhelming majority of BS1363 plugs are fused no higher than 13A, I don't
accept that the improved safety of the sensible majority is somehow
cancelled out by the actions of the occasional idiot.

Exactly. You can cater for a fool, but there is nothing you can do
about a damned fool.

I did indeed "fail to specify" that, because I don't know what it was. But I
do know what conductor sizes were used on the flexes connected to those
plugs which was frequently 0.5 sqmm. Not adequate, I think, to handle up to
25A of fault current from a defective appliance. In the UK a flex of that
cross-section *should* be connected via a plug fused at 3A or less. OK, I
accept that many are actually fused at 13A (though less so now that new
appliances must have factory-fitted plugs) but I think that a less than
perfect safety system is better than no system at all.

Yes, entirely agreed.
--
================================================== =======
Please always reply to ng as the email in this post's
header does not exist. Or use a contact address at:
http://www.macfh.co.uk/JavaJive/JavaJive.html
http://www.macfh.co.uk/Macfarlane/Macfarlane.html

Two points:

Part P was brought in supposedly to stop people doing dangerous
domestic rewiring causing death. The most recent records
available before Part P came in (2007 and 2005 IMSMC) showed that
in that year four people had died and twenty had received
significant electric shocks as a result of unsafe domestice
wiring alterations. If ever there was an instance of jobs for the
boys this must be it.

The other issue is that continental electricians don't seem to
have any concept of live and neutral. BS4343 outlets are very
clearly marked L and N on both plug or socket but my experience
(caravanning, mainly in France) is that more are reverse wired
than correctly wired. Perhaps it is because (from what I have
seen) most Euro MCB's are dual pole and will break both both
conductors under fault conditions (remember most Euro wiring is
radial) so polarity at the point of delivery is largely academic.
I purchased a 10A two-pole MCB (LeGrand) for my caravan in a
French DIY shed for less than a 6A single pole from a UK
wholesaler. Is there any wonder we have to take more steps in our
protection chain than they do?



--
Woody

harrogate three at ntlworld dot com

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
: In article
,
: Terry Casey wrote:
: My personal preference is for unswitched sockets but I'm
obviously in a
: minority as, when I wanted some 13A twin outlets last year,
ass of the
: unswitched one were (considerably) more expensive than the
switched
: variety. This seems to suggest that 'built to a price'
installations
: include switches ...
:
: Yes. The supplier I use doesn't even list unswitched 13 amp in
their
: budget ranges. But I was never a fan of them anyway. I've not
known a
: switch on a socket to fail, so I'd guess it's pretty rare.
:

Nothing to do with a switch failing, it's either bulk order price
or a wish to prevent accidental disconnection - for example, a
freezer. I detest so called skilled electricians installing
switched outlets in the backs of cupboards for such appliances,
if they must bodge then at least fit a an unswitched outlet.

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
: "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
: ...
:
snip
:
: That's impossible as the pins have insulation down most of
their length -
: only the end part makes contact.
:
: I know the German plugs were made that way It is good to know
that the UK
: plugs are made in a similar way.
:
: We still have all-brass pins here in the US.

Any idea what the figures, due to such plug/sockets, are for
shock or electrocution in the USA?

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
: In article , Jerry
: wrote:
:
: "Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
: ...
: : In article , Jerry
: : wrote:
:
: [Snip]
:
: :
: : Almost anything "can" happen. But in reality how often does
it?
:
:
: Not very often, just as kids in areas that do not use the
UK's BS1363
: plug/socket don't tend to poke things into other types of
sockets,
:
: So no stats on either.
:

Indeed, just like everyone else...

:
: : But then people know that, in the UK appliances could
: actually be
: : protected at 30A (with old slow-blow fuse wire) but the
: person using
: : the appliance believes that it is protected at the
correct
: 3A.
: :
: : How often is that the case? I've not come across anyone
using
: fuse wire (of
: : any rating) to replace the fuse cart in a mains plug for
: decades. is that
: : what you are referring to?
:
: No, think metal bolt/rod or similar, that is the same
diameter as the
: BS fuse and you might get the idea. If an unthinking idiot
can do it,
: they probably will,
:
: Again, not really comparative stats.

Indeed, just like everyone else...

:
: Again, what is the statistical evidence for this
: : being a significant problem?
: :
:
: Why do you think the law was changed in the UK so that all
(non
: wholesale) domestic, free standing, electrical equipment has
to now
: come pre-fitted with a BS1363 plug and correct fuse?
:
: Why do you thing that asking a question is a substitute for
having the
: relevant statistical data to compare the outcomes for different
systems? If
: the UK system "wasn't for consumer convenience" then your
implication is
: that is was for some other reason - e.g. safety. Hence arguing
against your
: earlier implication that shuttering hasn't any value.

The problem was the number of *incorrectly wired* plugs being
used, even by people who either should have known better or who
should have been trained, nothing what so ever to do with the
shuttering on the sockets.

:
: I appreciate you have loads of opinions. But I was asking if
you had any
: reliable stats.
:

Much like you and everyone else then, so please, no more of your
sycophantic bull**** then, unless you care to quote and cite some
hard facts...

wrote in message
...

snip
:
: **** off, Jerry.
: Go and play with the buses.

Just back from school Grimly, does your mummy know that you are
playing with daddies computer...

In article ,
Jerry wrote:
Nothing to do with a switch failing, it's either bulk order price
or a wish to prevent accidental disconnection - for example, a
freezer. I detest so called skilled electricians installing
switched outlets in the backs of cupboards for such appliances,
if they must bodge then at least fit a an unswitched outlet.

If the switch doesn't fail why does it matter if an inaccessible one is
switched or non switched?

--
*Modulation in all things *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
: In article ,
: Jerry wrote:
: Nothing to do with a switch failing, it's either bulk order
price
: or a wish to prevent accidental disconnection - for example,
a
: freezer. I detest so called skilled electricians installing
: switched outlets in the backs of cupboards for such
appliances,
: if they must bodge then at least fit a an unswitched outlet.
:
: If the switch doesn't fail why does it matter if an
inaccessible one is
: switched or non switched?
:

Because it can get accidentally switched off due to stuff being
moved or pushed to the back of the cupboard!

"Jerry" wrote in message
...

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
: "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
: ...
:
snip
:
: That's impossible as the pins have insulation down most of
their length -
: only the end part makes contact.
:
: I know the German plugs were made that way It is good to know
that the UK
: plugs are made in a similar way.
:
: We still have all-brass pins here in the US.

Any idea what the figures, due to such plug/sockets, are for
shock or electrocution in the USA?

No such detailed stats, but US consumer deaths due to electrical appliances
are on the order of 1 per 500,000 persons per year. UK numbers appear to be
more like 1 per 2 million persons per year.