Jerry wrote:


Hmm, surely the 1970s were a tad late for different voltages
(certainly for London), the national grid had been started long
before WW2 and was complete not long after, are you are not
thinking of the different designs of electrical circuits and
sockets in use or perhaps a different time period?

That was it. It was all 240v 50Hz, but the sockets were still the old ones.

By the time I first got there in 1983, I only saw the ones that are now
in use, but anything electrical was sold without a plug.

Geoff.


--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson, N3OWJ/4X1GM
My high blood pressure medicine reduces my midichlorian count. :-(

wrote in message
...
The British electrical standards are the dumbest on planet, or at
least the dumbest I have ever run into. Except for the Japanese, who
are combine the worst possible voltage standard with two different
frequencies.

In the US, we have two voltages in (all but really really old)
houses: 120 and 240, although most outlets are 120, the ranges,
clothes dryers and air conditioners are 240. And that 240 is balanced.
If we were SERIOUS audiophiles, we'd have 240 volt four pin dryer
outlets put in our listening rooms and run our power amps on 240.

Some modern power amps will produce appreciably more power when fed 240 as
opposed to 120. It's all about what you can pass through a 20 amp fuse. That
all said, this would be more important on the test bench amplifying test
tones, as opposed to in the listening room amplifying music due to the
dynamic and multitone nature of music.

"David Looser" wrote in message
...
wrote in message
...
The British electrical standards are the dumbest on planet, or at
least the dumbest I have ever run into. Except for the Japanese, who
are combine the worst possible voltage standard with two different
frequencies.

In the US, we have two voltages in (all but really really old)
houses: 120 and 240, although most outlets are 120, the ranges,
clothes dryers and air conditioners are 240. And that 240 is balanced.
If we were SERIOUS audiophiles, we'd have 240 volt four pin dryer
outlets put in our listening rooms and run our power amps on 240.

A very large number of countries run their mains supplies at 220-240V, not
just the UK! Electrical standards were not designed for the benefit of
audiophools, but in practice there's nothing wrong with the 230V standard
in this regard. The standard of electrical installations I've seen in the
US are far worse than those normally encountered here. And the
high-powered audio equipment I've seen in the US runs off 120V thus
supplies requiring heavy-guage mains flex. Definitely no improvement on
what we have here!

All I know is that after returning to the US from a year's stay in Germany,
I was a little bit afraid every time I plugged anything in, due to the ease
with which one's fingers slide down the plug and touch the contacts.

In article , Jerry
wrote:

"David Looser" wrote in message
...
: "Jerry" wrote
:
: : Just ask any toddler who has tried to poke a screwdriver
into
: an outlet.
:
: A toddler in the UK "Yeah! This game of sticking things in to these
: plastic shapes in the wall is fun, lets do it again!"
:
: A toddler in the USA (120v) "That tingles, not sure that I
like
: that..."
:
: A toddler in the EU (240v) *flash, bang, wallop* "That hurt daddy,
: why is my finger throbbing, why has the TV (or what
ever
: else is on the circuit) stopped working?"
:
: UK mains sockets have shutters, have you not noticed?

Duh, never! In any case, what happens when this shutter fails, as can
happen,

Almost anything "can" happen. But in reality how often does it? I can't
recall ever having the shutters on a UK standard mains socket fail open on
any I've used. What statistics do you have for how often they fail?

: Have you any data to suggest that deaths or injuries are any
worse here than
: in countries that don't use BS1363 outlets?

But then people know that, in the UK appliances could actually be
protected at 30A (with old slow-blow fuse wire) but the person using
the appliance believes that it is protected at the correct 3A.

How often is that the case? I've not come across anyone using fuse wire (of
any rating) to replace the fuse cart in a mains plug for decades. is that
what you are referring to? Again, what is the statistical evidence for this
being a significant problem?

Slainte,

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

In message , John Williamson
writes:
Eiron wrote:
On 03/01/2012 11:15, John Williamson wrote:
Eiron wrote:
And the UK plugs are rather large. That would be a valid criticism.
It spoils the lines of a laptop bag....


http://www.minkyu.co.uk/Site/Product...olding_Plug_Sy
stem.html


Problem solved. HTH
Still not in production?
Does it have a tendency to break and burst into flames?
Designed by a "designer" rather than by an engineer?

I think this design has been given a very hard time. The criticisms may
be valid, but let them try to sort out the problems, rather than being
nasty about the idea. I think there's an awful lot of
NIH/I-wish-I'd-thought-of-that in the criticisms.

Or this:-

http://www.slimplug.com/where.htm

Not *too* expensive, and sufficient for its rated use.

I have two, and they work well. (Still bulkier than the above though.)
I'm still a bit puzzled, however, that they were allowed to sell them
with a two-pin (actually socket) to three adapter.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G.5AL-IS-P--Ch++(p)Ar@T0H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

"Going to church doesn't make you a Christian anymore than going to a garage
makes you a car." - Laurence J. Peter

In message , David Looser
writes:
"Eiron" wrote in message
...
[]
There always was a tolerance range on the UK 240V mains, what happened was
that these tolerance limits were widened and re-centred on 230V. But these
new limits are now EU-wide so any equipment manufactured to these new limits
(230V +/- 10%) is suitable for sale anywhere within the EU.

And the UK plugs are rather large. That would be a valid criticism.
It spoils the lines of a laptop bag....

I agree, the BS1363 plug is not my favourite design. Some years ago there

It is far too big for most of the devices currently on it, yes - and
also, the three ratings for the matching fuse (BS1362) widely available
are far too high: 3, 5, and 13A. (Even 1A - which you _can_ get in
BS1362, but you don't half have to hunt for it - is too high for most
electronic appliances.) IMO, the fact that the plugs are fused actually
gives a _false_ sense of security, _because_ the fuse ratings are so
high; all that fuse can effectively protect is the mains lead (or power
cord, as it's called in US) itself.

was a serious attempt to introduce a EU standard plug & socket, an attempt
that failed because of the NIH (not-invented-here) factor. I rather like the
German 'Shucko' socket and would be happy to see it replace the BS1363
socket here, but can you image the reaction of the Daily Mail readers? :-)

I feel the same, but I suspect it's because it's what I grew up with (in
British army quarters in Germany, which used German fixtures and
fittings). [I don't think there's a "c" in it, by the way. Oh, hang on -
I think there is, but before the h not the k.]

David.


--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G.5AL-IS-P--Ch++(p)Ar@T0H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

"Going to church doesn't make you a Christian anymore than going to a garage
makes you a car." - Laurence J. Peter

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
: In article , Jerry
: wrote:
:
: "David Looser" wrote in message
: ...
: : "Jerry" wrote
: :
: : : Just ask any toddler who has tried to poke a
screwdriver
: into
: : an outlet.
: :
: : A toddler in the UK "Yeah! This game of sticking things
in to these
: : plastic shapes in the wall is fun, lets do it again!"
: :
: : A toddler in the USA (120v) "That tingles, not sure that
I
: like
: : that..."
: :
: : A toddler in the EU (240v) *flash, bang, wallop* "That
hurt daddy,
: : why is my finger throbbing, why has the TV (or what
: ever
: : else is on the circuit) stopped working?"
: :
: : UK mains sockets have shutters, have you not noticed?
:
: Duh, never! In any case, what happens when this shutter
fails, as can
: happen,
:
: Almost anything "can" happen. But in reality how often does it?
I can't

Not very often, just as kids in areas that do not use the UK's
BS1363 plug/socket don't tend to poke things into other types of
sockets, why because they are *taught* not to whilst being
supervised, of course that is to hard for average UK parents to
manage so the state has to hold their hands so to speak!


: recall ever having the shutters on a UK standard mains socket
fail open on
: any I've used. What statistics do you have for how often they
fail?

None, just personal experience of having to change such sockets,
either fixed or trailing (the same safety concerns exist with
both).

:
: : Have you any data to suggest that deaths or injuries are
any
: worse here than
: : in countries that don't use BS1363 outlets?
:
: But then people know that, in the UK appliances could
actually be
: protected at 30A (with old slow-blow fuse wire) but the
person using
: the appliance believes that it is protected at the correct
3A.
:
: How often is that the case? I've not come across anyone using
fuse wire (of
: any rating) to replace the fuse cart in a mains plug for
decades. is that
: what you are referring to?

No, think metal bolt/rod or similar, that is the same diameter as
the BS fuse and you might get the idea. If an unthinking idiot
can do it, they probably will, I have seen many silly things done
to BS1363 plugs that I have rarely seen/heard happening to a
fuse/breaker panel because even such idiots tend to draw the line
if they need to get more than a (pen-)knife from the kitchen
draw.

Again, what is the statistical evidence for this
: being a significant problem?
:

Why do you think the law was changed in the UK so that all (non
wholesale) domestic, free standing, electrical equipment has to
now come pre-fitted with a BS1363 plug and correct fuse? Clue, it
wasn't for the purchasers convenience...
--
Regards, Jerry.

In message o.uk, Dave
Liquorice writes:
On Tue, 3 Jan 2012 11:24:18 -0000, David Looser wrote:
[]
German 'Shucko' socket and would be happy to see it replace the BS1363
socket here,

A Shucko plug is not a lot smaller, if it is at all, than a 13A plug.

Yes, but it somehow _feels_ smaller.

It also - one of the major disadvantages of the common forms of the
BS1363 one, and for some reason rarely mentioned in discussions like
these - doesn't naturally settle, when unplugged, into a form that's
hazardous to bare feet (-:! [The Schuko _is_ available with side cable
entry, but even those ones don't tend to lie pins up.]
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G.5AL-IS-P--Ch++(p)Ar@T0H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

"Going to church doesn't make you a Christian anymore than going to a garage
makes you a car." - Laurence J. Peter

In message , Geoffrey S.
Mendelson writes:
[]
Shucko plugs have grounding problems. They rely on the plug being all the
way in (ground is connected AFTER the mains) and an easily bent spring in
the outlet.

Hmm, I don't remember seeing the spring ever bent (it's quite a
substantial piece of metal), though I can see it _could_ happen,
especially with abuse.

As for which connects first, I can't say for sure, but I used to find
the sockets - in which the whole socket is recessed - far more
reassuring than the British flush ones, in which one could touch the
pins; OK, the British one was redesigned such that the pins have to be
shrouded, but that happened much later, and I can certainly remember
when unshrouded was the norm (sometime in the 1970s?). [The shrouding
must reduce the cross-sectional area, too, though (a) see earlier
comments about the ratings being far more than required for most
appliances anyway, (b) I was once told that it is the contact area
rather than the cross-sectional which is likely to be a problem.
(Thinking about the wire attached, that's probably true.)]

Much better is a 230 volt version of the US 3 prong plug, two round pins
like the standard EU ungrounded plug, with a slightly longer ground pin
in the center and below them like this:

O O
O

The advantage is that unless you work at it, the ground pin makes contact
first.
[]
I was quite impressed the first time I saw what I think of as the
"Dutch" design: a bit like the Schuko, but the earth is actually a
socket in the plug, and a pin in the socket! Thus if you try to plug in
a plug that doesn't have the socket, it won't go in!
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G.5AL-IS-P--Ch++(p)Ar@T0H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

"Going to church doesn't make you a Christian anymore than going to a garage
makes you a car." - Laurence J. Peter

"J. P. Gilliver (John)" wrote in
message ...

[re the BS 1363 plug ]
snip
: must reduce the cross-sectional area, too, though (a) see
earlier
: comments about the ratings being far more than required for
most
: appliances anyway,

But the contact pins are not really over size, remember that
their maximum current rating has to be 30A, not 13A.

:
: Much better is a 230 volt version of the US 3 prong plug, two
round pins
: like the standard EU ungrounded plug, with a slightly longer
ground pin
: in the center and below them like this:
:
: O O
: O
:
: The advantage is that unless you work at it, the ground pin
makes contact
: first.
: []
: I was quite impressed the first time I saw what I think of as
the
: "Dutch" design: a bit like the Schuko, but the earth is
actually a
: socket in the plug, and a pin in the socket! Thus if you try to
plug in
: a plug that doesn't have the socket, it won't go in!

Yes, but just think about some idiot terminating the wires in the
wall plate incorrectly...
--
Regards, Jerry.