On 07/04/17 08:39, Brian Gaff wrote:
Well, it does not have to be that way. certainly back in 2000 r2 put out a
Bee Gees concert with wonderful dynamic range and quality on DAB. Some of
the concerts recorded for radio 1 in the 70s and 80s were very good also,
but when more recently they have rebroadcast some of them they are
compressed to hell and back. I know this as I have high quality recordings
from FM of the originals.
As I say, they need to decide what they are aiming for. Its not just
classical lovers who like good quality output.
The standards at the bbc have fallen to a new low and now I suspect most
listeners would be astounded just how realistic and good so called pop
concerts can be.

Pop music was always second to classical with regard to funding (elitism
etc...), hence why the Pop's reliance on dynamic range compression to
cope with limited bandwidth, and now an unfortunate addiction to using
it from the industry - even for CDs FFS.

There are plenty of instruments and "instruments" played outside an
orchestra that could also do without the effects of lossy data
compression, but I wouldn't expect them to change the status quo for that.

--
Adrian C

On Fri, 7 Apr 2017 10:13:30 +0100, Adrian Caspersz
wrote:

On 07/04/17 08:39, Brian Gaff wrote:
Well, it does not have to be that way. certainly back in 2000 r2 put out a
Bee Gees concert with wonderful dynamic range and quality on DAB. Some of
the concerts recorded for radio 1 in the 70s and 80s were very good also,
but when more recently they have rebroadcast some of them they are
compressed to hell and back. I know this as I have high quality recordings
from FM of the originals.
As I say, they need to decide what they are aiming for. Its not just
classical lovers who like good quality output.
The standards at the bbc have fallen to a new low and now I suspect most
listeners would be astounded just how realistic and good so called pop
concerts can be.

Pop music was always second to classical with regard to funding (elitism
etc...), hence why the Pop's reliance on dynamic range compression to
cope with limited bandwidth, and now an unfortunate addiction to using
it from the industry - even for CDs FFS.

There are plenty of instruments and "instruments" played outside an
orchestra that could also do without the effects of lossy data
compression, but I wouldn't expect them to change the status quo for that.

A problem here is that lossy compression is really based on the kind
of dynamic range you get in uncompressed acoustic music, and it does
that quite well. Hypercompressed pop is much harder to compress while
keeping decent sound quality.

d

In article ,
Adrian Caspersz wrote:
Pop music was always second to classical with regard to funding (elitism
etc...), hence why the Pop's reliance on dynamic range compression to
cope with limited bandwidth, and now an unfortunate addiction to using
it from the industry - even for CDs FFS.

Think it's more to do with the majority audience. In car listening - and
the little radio in the kitchen etc - are what perhaps most use to listen
to pop radio on. Hence those awful processors used on the output of many
radio stations which can make a mockery of the original recording.

Classical music can have a much wider dynamic range making it less
suitable for casual listening. Hence Classic FM etc, which chooses stuff
which is.

DAB was designed to get round this. That after 'recording' compression
could be controlled at your receiver. But sadly, don't think it was ever
implemented.

--
*If love is blind, why is lingerie so popular?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Don Pearce wrote:


A problem here is that lossy compression is really based on the kind
of dynamic range you get in uncompressed acoustic music, and it does
that quite well.


** The missing fact being that wide range material has a low average bit rate.


Hypercompressed pop is much harder to compress


** Cos it resembles random noise at a high level - hence a high average bit rate.


while keeping decent sound quality.


** That is not easy to believe.



..... Phil

Dave Plowman (News) said:
In article ,
Adrian Caspersz wrote:
Pop music was always second to classical with regard to funding (elitism
etc...), hence why the Pop's reliance on dynamic range compression to
cope with limited bandwidth, and now an unfortunate addiction to using
it from the industry - even for CDs FFS.

Think it's more to do with the majority audience. In car listening - and
the little radio in the kitchen etc - are what perhaps most use to listen
to pop radio on.

Expectations, yes. "Pop" is to be listened to on a tinny little tranny,
"classical" is to be listened to in the concert hall.

--
Richard Robinson
"The whole plan hinged upon the natural curiosity of potatoes" - S. Lem

My email address is at http://qualmograph.org.uk/contact.html

In article ,
Richard Robinson wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) said:
In article ,
Adrian Caspersz wrote:
Pop music was always second to classical with regard to funding
(elitism etc...), hence why the Pop's reliance on dynamic range
compression to cope with limited bandwidth, and now an unfortunate
addiction to using it from the industry - even for CDs FFS.

Think it's more to do with the majority audience. In car listening -
and the little radio in the kitchen etc - are what perhaps most use to
listen to pop radio on.

Expectations, yes. "Pop" is to be listened to on a tinny little tranny,
"classical" is to be listened to in the concert hall.

I doubt many these days sit down in front of their Hi-Fi to listen to the
radio, unlike once. They're far more likely to want their own choice of
music when doing this.

--
*That's it! I‘m calling grandma!

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Huge" wrote in message
...
On 2017-04-07, Adrian Caspersz wrote:
On 07/04/17 08:39, Brian Gaff wrote:
Well, it does not have to be that way. certainly back in 2000 r2 put out
a
Bee Gees concert with wonderful dynamic range and quality on DAB. Some
of
the concerts recorded for radio 1 in the 70s and 80s were very good
also,
but when more recently they have rebroadcast some of them they are
compressed to hell and back. I know this as I have high quality
recordings
from FM of the originals.
As I say, they need to decide what they are aiming for. Its not just
classical lovers who like good quality output.
The standards at the bbc have fallen to a new low and now I suspect
most
listeners would be astounded just how realistic and good so called pop
concerts can be.

Pop music was always second to classical with regard to funding (elitism
etc...), hence why the Pop's reliance on dynamic range compression to
cope with limited bandwidth, and now an unfortunate addiction to using
it from the industry - even for CDs FFS.

I would suggest that Pop's reliance on dynamic range compression was more
to
do with the "loudness wars" than limited bandwidth, especially since it
predates digital media.

A cigar for that man:-)

In pop music the public consider louder to be better.

Over the years, I have, on many occasions asked
listeners to choose between two identical mastered
mixes both peaking at -1dB FS but one of them
compressed 3dB. They perceive the compressed
version as louder, therefore better. Hardly anyone
notices that in every other respect the two are identical,
but somehow the vocal sound is better, and the solos
are fuller, and it sounds better in the car, and on the
kitchen radio..........

Iain

Today is Boomtime, the 24th day of Discord in the YOLD 3183
I don't have an attitude problem.
If you have a problem with my attitude, that's your problem.

Dave Plowman (News) said:
In article ,
Richard Robinson wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) said:
In article ,
Adrian Caspersz wrote:
Pop music was always second to classical with regard to funding
(elitism etc...), hence why the Pop's reliance on dynamic range
compression to cope with limited bandwidth, and now an unfortunate
addiction to using it from the industry - even for CDs FFS.

Think it's more to do with the majority audience. In car listening -
and the little radio in the kitchen etc - are what perhaps most use to
listen to pop radio on.

Expectations, yes. "Pop" is to be listened to on a tinny little tranny,
"classical" is to be listened to in the concert hall.

I doubt many these days sit down in front of their Hi-Fi to listen to the
radio, unlike once. They're far more likely to want their own choice of
music when doing this.

My radio tuner is plugged into the amp, along with the CD player and DAC
box, I sit in front of the Hi-Fi^Hspeakers to listen to everything. But I'm
used to being told I'm not normal :-)

But, expectations. You could maybe call it an aural tradition ... people
expect it to sound like what they expect it to sound like, growing up out of
the days when we expected it to come out of a Transistor Radio. Or (showing
my age ?) possibly an earplug under the bedclothes when we should have been
asleep. Continuity. Radios didn't always plug into Hi-Fis. Ones that will
still cost more.

I think we're saying the same thing, really ?


--
Richard Robinson
"The whole plan hinged upon the natural curiosity of potatoes" - S. Lem

My email address is at http://qualmograph.org.uk/contact.html

Jim Lesurf wrote:

Eiron wrote:

Is there any way to record the stream?

There probably will be various ways to do so. In fact, that's what I'm
trying to sort out at tghe moment! :-) The snag for me is that I want to
record what *arrives*. Not what may get though a browser and any OS
'mixers'. etc.

It just seems to fetch a sequence of ~200kB files

https://vs-dash-ww-rd-live.bbcfmt.hs.llnwd.net/al/lossless/A1/388436085.m4s
https://vs-dash-ww-rd-live.bbcfmt.hs.llnwd.net/al/lossless/A1/388436086.m4s
https://vs-dash-ww-rd-live.bbcfmt.hs.llnwd.net/al/lossless/A1/388436087.m4s

with each one containing 3-4 seconds of audio, whether or not you could
use wget/curl/etc to grab and concatenate the segments, then play the
result with vlc or some other ffmpeg based app, I don't know ...

In article , Andy Burns
wrote:
Jim Lesurf wrote:

Eiron wrote:

Is there any way to record the stream?

There probably will be various ways to do so. In fact, that's what I'm
trying to sort out at tghe moment! :-) The snag for me is that I want
to record what *arrives*. Not what may get though a browser and any OS
'mixers'. etc.

It just seems to fetch a sequence of ~200kB files

https://vs-dash-ww-rd-live.bbcfmt.hs.llnwd.net/al/lossless/A1/388436085.m4s
https://vs-dash-ww-rd-live.bbcfmt.hs.llnwd.net/al/lossless/A1/388436086.m4s
https://vs-dash-ww-rd-live.bbcfmt.hs.llnwd.net/al/lossless/A1/388436087.m4s

with each one containing 3-4 seconds of audio, whether or not you could
use wget/curl/etc to grab and concatenate the segments, then play the
result with vlc or some other ffmpeg based app, I don't know ...

How do you find the first 'time chunk' value when starting the process?

Given the above, it should be possible to loop and fetch successive blocks
and cat them together into a file. Personally I'm *not* trying to play the
results 'live'. But if I can record enough of the stream I can start to
analyse it.

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html