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uk.rec.audio (General Audio and Hi-Fi) (uk.rec.audio) Discussion and exchange of hi-fi audio equipment.

Why?



 
 
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  #1 (permalink)  
Old May 4th 17, 08:27 AM posted to uk.rec.audio
Brian Gaff
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Posts: 637
Default Why?

Did they decide to make audio and video optical formats play from the inside
outwards?
Was it simply due to the idea of making variable sized discs? IE if you
look at, for example early copies of James Last Tango, or Roxy Music Avalon
you see that there is a huge part of the surface not used and it can be
used as a mirror. Perhaps back in the day, it was thought that one could
crop off the disc so not only could we have singles sized ones but old
vinyl album length ones as well.

Nowadays of course the whole surface looks used even when its not. Makes you
wonder if there is some secret info in those outer areas....
Brian

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  #2 (permalink)  
Old May 4th 17, 08:33 AM posted to uk.rec.audio
Don Pearce[_3_]
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Posts: 1,358
Default Why?

On Thu, 4 May 2017 09:27:29 +0100, "Brian Gaff"
wrote:

Did they decide to make audio and video optical formats play from the inside
outwards?
Was it simply due to the idea of making variable sized discs? IE if you
look at, for example early copies of James Last Tango, or Roxy Music Avalon
you see that there is a huge part of the surface not used and it can be
used as a mirror. Perhaps back in the day, it was thought that one could
crop off the disc so not only could we have singles sized ones but old
vinyl album length ones as well.

Nowadays of course the whole surface looks used even when its not. Makes you
wonder if there is some secret info in those outer areas....
Brian


By playing from the inside out, you can use multiple sizes of media -
that's pretty much it.

d

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  #3 (permalink)  
Old May 4th 17, 10:05 AM posted to uk.rec.audio
Jim Lesurf[_2_]
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Posts: 2,668
Default Why?

In article , Don Pearce
wrote:
On Thu, 4 May 2017 09:27:29 +0100, "Brian Gaff"
wrote:


Did they decide to make audio and video optical formats play from the
inside outwards? Was it simply due to the idea of making variable sized
discs? IE if you look at, for example early copies of James Last
Tango, or Roxy Music Avalon you see that there is a huge part of the
surface not used and it can be used as a mirror. Perhaps back in the
day, it was thought that one could crop off the disc so not only could
we have singles sized ones but old vinyl album length ones as well.

Nowadays of course the whole surface looks used even when its not.
Makes you wonder if there is some secret info in those outer areas....
Brian


By playing from the inside out, you can use multiple sizes of media -
that's pretty much it.


It also makes the initial track-and-focus lockup easier as any error angle
that causes the surface to waggle 'up and down' has less effect.

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

  #4 (permalink)  
Old May 4th 17, 05:37 PM posted to uk.rec.audio
Iain Churches[_2_]
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Posts: 1,648
Default Why?


"Brian Gaff" wrote in message
news
Did they decide to make audio and video optical formats play from the
inside outwards?
Was it simply due to the idea of making variable sized discs? IE if you
look at, for example early copies of James Last Tango, or Roxy Music
Avalon you see that there is a huge part of the surface not used and it
can be used as a mirror. Perhaps back in the day, it was thought that one
could crop off the disc so not only could we have singles sized ones but
old vinyl album length ones as well.

Nowadays of course the whole surface looks used even when its not. Makes
you wonder if there is some secret info in those outer areas....
Brian



When analogue disc recording was in development,
it was suggested that they too should play from the inside
outwards. For classical music this would have made a
lot of sense as the final movement of a symphony is
usually the loudest:-)

Iain


  #5 (permalink)  
Old May 4th 17, 07:29 PM posted to uk.rec.audio
Johnny B Good
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Posts: 65
Default Why?

On Thu, 04 May 2017 20:37:42 +0300, Iain Churches wrote:

"Brian Gaff" wrote in message
news
Did they decide to make audio and video optical formats play from the
inside outwards?
Was it simply due to the idea of making variable sized discs? IE if you
look at, for example early copies of James Last Tango, or Roxy Music
Avalon you see that there is a huge part of the surface not used and
it can be used as a mirror. Perhaps back in the day, it was thought
that one could crop off the disc so not only could we have singles
sized ones but old vinyl album length ones as well.

Nowadays of course the whole surface looks used even when its not.
Makes you wonder if there is some secret info in those outer areas....
Brian



When analogue disc recording was in development,
it was suggested that they too should play from the inside outwards.
For classical music this would have made a lot of sense as the final
movement of a symphony is usually the loudest:-)


The CAV analogue disk storage format was going to suffer from tracing
distortion problems one way or another. They just chose let it be 'the
other' end that was going to pay the price for the greater physical
storage space efficiency of a recording collection over that of the
cylinder format's constant linear analogue storage density and fixed
track pitch.

When a recording fits the chosen size of disk 'with ample room to
spare', you can console yourself with the fact the recording will suffer
less tracing distortion towards the end. In the case of recordings, as
pointed out above, which end in a loud crescendo, avoiding this innermost
wasted space affords a considerable reduction in the audible distortion
that would otherwise arise.

When it comes to optically read media, it makes more sense to read a
spiral track from the inside outwards. The innermost area is less prone
to contamination by handling and offers a fixed radial distance reference
point for the laser head servo controller to target when initialising a
freshly inserted disc.

With optical storage of digitised audio recordings, the CD provides a
constant bits per inch of track storage density resulting in a starting
RPM of 600 dropping to 270 RPM at the end of a full 74 minute recording.
IOW, there isn't the equivalent issue of 'tracing distortion' as in the
analogue disk system so the choice of which end to start following a
spiral track from (inner or outer) is otherwise quite arbitrary with
regard to the final audio quality.

Back in the eighties when a "Final Solution" to Hi-Fi storage and
distribution alternative to vinyl records and music cassettes was being
developed, the optical disk looked to be *the* 'Holy Grail'. It had the
charm of being a technically complex format that no consumer would be
able to afford the cost of duplicating without noticeable loss in audio
quality, yet be just as easy to create copies of by the millions for
distribution as vinyl records, indeed, it would be even cheaper so, as
the naive music recording industry thought at the time, a "Win-Win"
situation for them.

The only part of the music CD standard they got right was the stereo 16
bit interleaved LPCM encoding at 44.1KHz sampling rate used as the
bedrock of the CDDA standard. As for the optical media itself, that
acquired the status of "Legacy Media" well over a decade ago.

The CDDA encoding standard turns out to be amply 'over-engineered' to
completely serve its purpose as *the ultimate* replacement for the
classic stereo vinyl record (or even a 15 ips half track stereo recording
on modern quarter inch reel to reel tape using a high quality tape deck
with glass/ferrite heads, virtually free of head scrape noise).

Meanwhile, modern solid state storage techniques have long since made
optical storage obsolescent leaving the user the choice of which file
storage format to use with their "32GB micro-SD card the-size-of-the-nail-
on-my-little-finger" to store the equivalent of 40 full length Music CDs
with room to spare without resorting to any form of compression
whatsoever.

The only benefit, as I see it, in the music industry deciding to add SACD
as a 'premium offering' is that any attempts at enforcing DRM will be
concentrated on the 'premium product' leaving the 'ordinary base
standard' CDDA product free of any such DRM nonsense. :-)

--
Johnny B Good
  #6 (permalink)  
Old May 4th 17, 08:51 PM posted to uk.rec.audio
Vir Campestris
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Posts: 64
Default Why?

On 04/05/2017 20:29, Johnny B Good wrote:
The innermost area is less prone
to contamination by handling


That's the one. Fewer scratches and fingerprints.

Small discs came later IIRC.

Andy
  #7 (permalink)  
Old May 4th 17, 11:44 PM posted to uk.rec.audio
Johnny B Good
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Posts: 65
Default Why?

On Thu, 04 May 2017 21:51:52 +0100, Vir Campestris wrote:

On 04/05/2017 20:29, Johnny B Good wrote:
The innermost area is less prone to contamination by handling


That's the one. Fewer scratches and fingerprints.

Small discs came later IIRC.

They were a neat solution to incorporating some 70 or so MB's worth of
data on a business card shaped disk or allow driver software to be
provided on a miniature CD that would fit into the smaller box sizes
typically used to package PCI and PCIe adapters.

The only issue was they could only be used in drives equipped with an
automatic slide out coffee cup holder. Drives that relied upon a slot
loading mechanism represented an almost[1] insurmountable problem to the
use of such miniature disks.

Thankfully, slot loading optical drive usage in desktop computers seems
to have been a passing fad. Not even laptops use slot loaders where some
sort of case could be made for the slot loading mechanism being less
prone to damage. I guess the slot loading optical drive looked like "A
Rather Neat Idea" until these miniature CDs appeared on the scene to
spoil the whole concept of trayless drives.

[1] Not completely insurmountable if you had access to a tray loading CDRW
drive equipped PC to copy the data onto a full size CD-R blank that you
could then present to your slot loading CD drive. Alternatively, you
could use another machine to copy the files onto a usb pen drive or else
use another machine on your house/office lan to copy the files onto a
shared folder that the slot loader afflicted machine could access.

Failing this last option, there's always the option these days to
download the latest driver software package from the manufacturer's web
site. You'd only be stuck with the problem of extracting the files off
the miniature CD itself if it were older or more obscure kit no longer
enjoying support by the OEM who may have gone out of business or else had
simply lost interest in a piece of kit they now regard as obsolete.

--
Johnny B Good
  #8 (permalink)  
Old May 5th 17, 07:40 AM posted to uk.rec.audio
Brian Gaff
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 637
Default Why?

One sort of fix for the slot loaders, and I only have one audio player with
this, was the cd size converter. it was a kind of outer bit you clipped the
cd into and then fed the whole thing into the slot. It worked but sometimes
got jammed on the way out due to the slight bend it induced in the cd as it
extracted it making the little middle bit pop out on one side!
Brian

--
----- -
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please!
"Johnny B Good" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 04 May 2017 21:51:52 +0100, Vir Campestris wrote:

On 04/05/2017 20:29, Johnny B Good wrote:
The innermost area is less prone to contamination by handling


That's the one. Fewer scratches and fingerprints.

Small discs came later IIRC.

They were a neat solution to incorporating some 70 or so MB's worth of
data on a business card shaped disk or allow driver software to be
provided on a miniature CD that would fit into the smaller box sizes
typically used to package PCI and PCIe adapters.

The only issue was they could only be used in drives equipped with an
automatic slide out coffee cup holder. Drives that relied upon a slot
loading mechanism represented an almost[1] insurmountable problem to the
use of such miniature disks.

Thankfully, slot loading optical drive usage in desktop computers seems
to have been a passing fad. Not even laptops use slot loaders where some
sort of case could be made for the slot loading mechanism being less
prone to damage. I guess the slot loading optical drive looked like "A
Rather Neat Idea" until these miniature CDs appeared on the scene to
spoil the whole concept of trayless drives.

[1] Not completely insurmountable if you had access to a tray loading CDRW
drive equipped PC to copy the data onto a full size CD-R blank that you
could then present to your slot loading CD drive. Alternatively, you
could use another machine to copy the files onto a usb pen drive or else
use another machine on your house/office lan to copy the files onto a
shared folder that the slot loader afflicted machine could access.

Failing this last option, there's always the option these days to
download the latest driver software package from the manufacturer's web
site. You'd only be stuck with the problem of extracting the files off
the miniature CD itself if it were older or more obscure kit no longer
enjoying support by the OEM who may have gone out of business or else had
simply lost interest in a piece of kit they now regard as obsolete.

--
Johnny B Good



  #9 (permalink)  
Old May 5th 17, 08:23 AM posted to uk.rec.audio
Jim Lesurf[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,668
Default Why?

In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:


When analogue disc recording was in development,
it was suggested that they too should play from the inside
outwards. For classical music this would have made a
lot of sense as the final movement of a symphony is
usually the loudest:-)


Yes. However maybe they decided to start at the 'outside' to minimise
distortion at the start of the music and give the best possible initial
impression of the sound quality.

Starting at the outside probably makes it easier when placing the
stylus/arm by hand, though. Easier to see what you're doing, etc.

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

  #10 (permalink)  
Old May 5th 17, 09:54 AM posted to uk.rec.audio
Dave Plowman (News)
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Posts: 5,872
Default Why?

In article ,
Jim Lesurf wrote:
In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:



When analogue disc recording was in development,
it was suggested that they too should play from the inside
outwards. For classical music this would have made a
lot of sense as the final movement of a symphony is
usually the loudest:-)


Yes. However maybe they decided to start at the 'outside' to minimise
distortion at the start of the music and give the best possible initial
impression of the sound quality.


Starting at the outside probably makes it easier when placing the
stylus/arm by hand, though. Easier to see what you're doing, etc.


Some BBC direct cut discs did play from the centre out.

--
*IF YOU TRY TO FAIL, AND SUCCEED, WHICH HAVE YOU DONE?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
 




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