Stewart Pinkerton wrote:
On Wed, 23 Jul 2003 08:27:05 +0100, Nick Gorham
wrote:


Stewart Pinkerton wrote:

And no, you can't sample that sound and push it through a comparitor.

IOW, it's all in your imagination, and your knowledge of the cost and
'exoticness' of the device.

Maybe, not that bothered, but I don't see how its exotic, just the
reverse I would have said.


What, with the Ongaku at £35,000 for a 25 watt amp, using a humungous
output tranny made with silver wire, and a 1920s radio transmitter
valve? Just how exotic does it need to be?

Agreed, I never said it had to be cheap, or couldn't be made exotic, my
point was, its possible to have a very simple SET circuit, its not
inherent in the class.

The last one I listened to was a PSE 300b amp, £1000 and I agree thats
not cheap in SS terms.

Also note that I didn't clame SET's were better, but just that it did
some things differently.

Anyway, who needs silver wound transformers

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/paulr.b...formerCrop.jpg

--
Nick

"Nick Gorham" wrote in message

**Well, not quite. Modern BJTs do, indeed, approach Triodes in their
distortion levels but Triodes employ a large amount of NFB to
achieve such low levels of THD. Adding a similar level of NFB around
a transistor will allow the device to deliver comparable or lower
levels of distortion.


On that subject, can anyone suggest a equivilant to a 2SK170 ? or a UK
supplier ?


http://www.mushroom.co.uk/stock_w.htm

UK-friendly:

http://www.donberg.ie/descript/2/2sk170.htm

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
In article , Keith G
wrote:
"Andy Evans" wrote



In less than a minute the Kit88 valve amp had blown the Technics (MY
Technics, no less) into the weeds!


I would be interested to know your reactions if you first fitted a pair of
resistors in series with the outputs of the Technics. Values of around
0.47
to 1 Ohms between each output and the speaker. This would roughly mimic
the
relatively high output impedances typical of valve amps.

I'd be curious to know if, after listening, you felt this changed things
in
a way that made you feel that the Technics now sounded more like the valve
amp.


OK, I'll give this a go and get the same person to do the test. (My own take
is that, on the Technics, the sound lost 'air', 'sweetness' and kinda shrunk
back into the speakers, but I let my mate, Nigey Wigey, make all the
claims......)

Tell me if this will work: The amp has two sets of speaker outlets (A and B)
which I have used to check the 'biwiring' phenomenon (to absolutely 'zero'
effect, I would say, yet again). If I use two pairs of (identical) speaker
wires to the speakers and leave the connecting links on the speaker
terminals will I be able to select A and B in turn (ie to compare the 'with'
and 'without' resistors in series) or will the impedances be somehow 'messed
up'? (It would be a simple front-panel button pressing exercise if this is
permissible....)

On Thu, 24 Jul 2003 14:57:41 +0100, "Keith G"
wrote:

Tell me if this will work: The amp has two sets of speaker outlets (A and B)
which I have used to check the 'biwiring' phenomenon (to absolutely 'zero'
effect, I would say, yet again). If I use two pairs of (identical) speaker
wires to the speakers and leave the connecting links on the speaker
terminals will I be able to select A and B in turn (ie to compare the 'with'
and 'without' resistors in series) or will the impedances be somehow 'messed
up'? (It would be a simple front-panel button pressing exercise if this is
permissible....)

That should work, but it will also work if you just use the one cable,
and link the resistors between the A and B output terminals. This
reduvces the number of variables to just the resistor.
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 24 Jul 2003 14:57:41 +0100, "Keith G"
wrote:

Tell me if this will work: The amp has two sets of speaker outlets (A and
B)
which I have used to check the 'biwiring' phenomenon (to absolutely
'zero'
effect, I would say, yet again). If I use two pairs of (identical)
speaker
wires to the speakers and leave the connecting links on the speaker
terminals will I be able to select A and B in turn (ie to compare the
'with'
and 'without' resistors in series) or will the impedances be somehow
'messed
up'? (It would be a simple front-panel button pressing exercise if this
is
permissible....)

That should work, but it will also work if you just use the one cable,
and link the resistors between the A and B output terminals. This
reduvces the number of variables to just the resistor.


OK, this sounds neat and 'elegant' - better than wires running everywhere.

Correct me if I'm not getting this right - connect a cable like the letter
'h' where the speakers are off to the top and terminal A is the 'left foot'
and terminal B is the 'right foot' of the 'h'. The resistor (I have managed
to get a couple of R47Js rated at 4W - I take it these will be OK?) is then
chopped into the 'loop' between A and B.

Now, assuming I've got that right, selecting A will be equal to the cable
without the resistor and selecting B will include the resistor, yes? Will
that work OK and the fact that both A and B connections exist (but not
simultaneously selected, of course) throughout not 'muddy the waters' at
all? The geezer I got the resistors from went over my head with summat about
the amp being wired 'in series' internally?????

Off out for a while, will be playing with this later - listen out for the
'bang'........

:-)

This would roughly mimic the
relatively high output impedances typical of valve amps. I'd be curious to know
if, after listening, you felt this changed things in
a way that made you feel that the Technics now sounded more like the valve
amp.

You valve knockers just can't get it into your heads that valves do something
DIFFERENT that CAN'T be reproduced by simple tricks. I lived with those ghastly
'valve sound' monstrosities that the music industry foisted on us - none of
them sounded as good as valves, not even remotely.

=== Andy Evans ===
Visit our Website:- http://www.artsandmedia.com
Audio, music and health pages and interesting links.

On 24 Jul 2003 20:57:26 GMT, ohawker (Andy
Evans) wrote:

This would roughly mimic the
relatively high output impedances typical of valve amps. I'd be curious to know
if, after listening, you felt this changed things in
a way that made you feel that the Technics now sounded more like the valve
amp.

You valve knockers just can't get it into your heads that valves do something
DIFFERENT that CAN'T be reproduced by simple tricks. I lived with those ghastly
'valve sound' monstrosities that the music industry foisted on us - none of
them sounded as good as valves, not even remotely.

You valve dickheads just can't get it into your heads that valves do
absolutely nothing that isn't a *degradation* of the input signal. If
you *like* that sound, that's just fine, but please don't pull all
this bull**** about it being 'better', except in your personal
opinion.

I note that you totally failed to respond to the deconstruction of
Olsen's bull**** about valves.
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

"Andy Evans" wrote in message
...
This would roughly mimic the
relatively high output impedances typical of valve amps. I'd be curious to
know
if, after listening, you felt this changed things in
a way that made you feel that the Technics now sounded more like the valve
amp.

You valve knockers just can't get it into your heads that valves do
something
DIFFERENT that CAN'T be reproduced by simple tricks. I lived with those
ghastly
'valve sound' monstrosities that the music industry foisted on us - none
of
them sounded as good as valves, not even remotely.

**You're painting with a very broad brush. And badly, at that. Understand
two things:

There are good and bad valve amps.
There are good and bad SS amps.

OK?

I've performed many, many blind and not blind tests, between SS amps and
valve amps. One thing has become abundantly clear, after listening to
literally thousands of different products. The very best tube amps (and
preamps) sound remarkably like the best SS amps (and preamps). So close,
that I have been unable to detect which is which, in a blind test, when
using appropriately rated loudspeakers (ie: those without wild impedance
swings).

For the record, two valve products, which I consider have largely inaudible
flaws a Audio Research VT100 and Conrad Johnson Premier 16. Both are
superlative examples of valve technology.

Some valve amps (SETs, are the best known examples) are instantly
recognisable, for their flaws. Although it would be possible to replicate
those flaws, using SS products, it would be a pointless and wasteful
exercise.




--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com

Understand two things: OK?

I'd hate to have to live with you, though there are doubtless those that are
less fortunate - have you tried the army?

=== Andy Evans ===
Visit our Website:- http://www.artsandmedia.com
Audio, music and health pages and interesting links.

"Andy Evans" wrote in message
...
This would roughly mimic the
relatively high output impedances typical of valve amps. I'd be curious to
know
if, after listening, you felt this changed things in
a way that made you feel that the Technics now sounded more like the valve
amp.

You valve knockers just can't get it into your heads that valves do
something
DIFFERENT that CAN'T be reproduced by simple tricks. I lived with those
ghastly
'valve sound' monstrosities that the music industry foisted on us - none
of
them sounded as good as valves, not even remotely.


OK Andy, first off (due to bad snipping - which is on the increase in here)
it looks like you are calling Jim Lesurf a 'valve knocker' which, I'm
certain, is not quite the case. I think you'll find that he (like me) adopts
a fairly pragmatic approach to the question of valves and SS kit. (I ain't
fekkin' stoopid - I love and prefer valves but wouldn't entertain them if I
didn't think they were 'better' in the circumstances I use them... ;-)

Secondly, by way of a quick observation, a short, sharp shoot-out I
conducted earlier this evening between an Audio Innovations Series 400 15
wpc valve amp (EL84s) with a valve Phono stage and a borrowed Technics
SU-A700 45 wpc integrated SS amp revealed the following:

For vinyl playback the Audio Innovations fairly ****ed on the Technics in
almost every respect (usual litany avoided).

For CD playback the Technics held its own without difficulty and, if I was
into CDs (which I ain't) would probably be just as interesting as the valve
amp.

It doesn't tell anyone a lot - it was merely an opportunity to reset my
'zero points' before I use this Technics amp for the little experiment
suggested by Jim. Can't use my own SS power amp as I am using valve pre's
with it and I'm not sure what effect they might have on the proceedings.

All I can say is that my son who owns the AI amp (and couldn't give a rat's
whether its valves, SS, vinyl, CDs, SACDs, Minidiscs, DVD this and that or a
thin crust pizza) grew up with and absolutely *adores* Technics gear but
wouldn't swap for it..... ;-)

(Hint: I'll probably keep this little Technics bugger anyway, as it too cute
to hand back.....)

Anyways, more anon when I have had a fiddle with the resistors........