60 years ago saw the introduction of the Western Electric 300A and 300B
direct-heated power triode, RCA 45, 50, and 2A3 directly-heated power triodes,
and RCA 27, 56, 76, 6P5, 6J5, and 6SN7 family of indirectly-heated triodes.
Sixty years later, these devices continue to be the lowest distortion
amplifying elements ever made. No pentode, bipolar transistor, JFET, or MOSFET
has ever approached the distortion performance of mid-Thirties triodes. In
addition to low distortion in the absolute sense, the distortion spectra of
triodes is favorable, with a rapid fall-off of the upper harmonics. (This is
not true for beam tetrodes, pentodes, or solid-state devices, which are
intrinsically less linear.)

If you ever want to put a solid-state designer on the spot, ask them which
transistors were designed for high-fidelity audio applications ... and are they
still on the market, ten or twenty years after they introduced? The sad fact is
that solid-state devices have linearity well down on the list of design
priorities, with feedback needed to clean up devices that were never primarily
intended for audio. The automotive equivalent would be cars modified to use
truck diesels ... OK for Soviet Russia maybe, but do you think you'd want to
buy something like that if you had a choice? Yet this is the state of affairs
in solid-state audio, with the electronic equivalent of an industrial diesel
pressed into service in so-called "high-end" electronics.

Lynn Olsen

Keep the faith - "If it ain't glowing, it ain't going"

=== Andy Evans ===
Visit our Website:- http://www.artsandmedia.com
Audio, music and health pages and interesting links.

In article , Andy Evans
wrote:
60 years ago saw the introduction of the Western Electric 300A and 300B
direct-heated power triode, RCA 45, 50, and 2A3 directly-heated power
triodes, and RCA 27, 56, 76, 6P5, 6J5, and 6SN7 family of
indirectly-heated triodes. Sixty years later, these devices continue to
be the lowest distortion amplifying elements ever made. No pentode,
bipolar transistor, JFET, or MOSFET has ever approached the distortion
performance of mid-Thirties triodes. In addition to low distortion in
the absolute sense, the distortion spectra of triodes is favorable, with
a rapid fall-off of the upper harmonics. (This is not true for beam
tetrodes, pentodes, or solid-state devices, which are intrinsically less
linear.)

Could you be more specific by what you mean above? Under what specific
conditions of use, signal powers, etc, are you making the above comments?

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html

Arny Krueger wrote:


Anybody who has seen and understood the plate curves for just about any
Pentode should be laughing their butts off about now.


I guess thats why he excluded Pentodes, and looking at the list of
valves, indirectly heated triodes, or were you choosing to ignore that ?

--
Nick

Stewart Pinkerton wrote:


Yes, they were introduced around 25-30 years ago. OTOH, we do have
this thing called 'progress' in SS devices, unlike valves.

6C33C

Its progress, maybe not in the right way...


If valves are so wonderful, why has nothing been produced which is
better than the 300B, in 70 years?

212

though looking at lines, I would say the 45 was way better than the 300b

--
Nick

Arny Krueger wrote:

"Nick Gorham" wrote in message


Arny Krueger wrote:


Anybody who has seen and understood the plate curves for just about
any Pentode should be laughing their butts off about now.


I guess thats why he excluded Pentodes, and looking at the list of
valves, indirectly heated triodes, or were you choosing to ignore
that ?


By doing so he excluded an apples-to-apples comparison. Comparing a
transitor to a triode is not an apples-to-apples comparison because the
transistor has so much greater amplification. If you apply enough local
feedback to a transistor amplifier to make it comparable to a triode, it's
often even more linear.

Yes, agreed, gain is cheap with transistors, but you are still assuming
that feedback is without its cost in sonic terms. And before you go off
on one of your rants, a zero (global) feedback SET does some things that
no other type of amp does. Yes, it has faults, thats why I don't at
the moment have one, and yes, to get it anywhere near usable you are
talking about a high cost if only for the iron. BUT, sit someone down
infront of a well designed SET, and a high enough sensitivity speaker
and it will communicate to them is a way that nothing else can.

And no, you can't sample that sound and push it through a comparitor.

--
Nick

On Wed, 23 Jul 2003 00:51:14 +0100, Nick Gorham
wrote:

Stewart Pinkerton wrote:

If valves are so wonderful, why has nothing been produced which is
better than the 300B, in 70 years?

212

though looking at lines, I would say the 45 was way better than the 300b

The 845? That's a mid-thirties valve designed for use in radio
transmitters............
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

On Wed, 23 Jul 2003 00:58:51 +0100, Nick Gorham
wrote:

Arny Krueger wrote:

"Nick Gorham" wrote in message


Arny Krueger wrote:


Anybody who has seen and understood the plate curves for just about
any Pentode should be laughing their butts off about now.


I guess thats why he excluded Pentodes, and looking at the list of
valves, indirectly heated triodes, or were you choosing to ignore
that ?


By doing so he excluded an apples-to-apples comparison. Comparing a
transitor to a triode is not an apples-to-apples comparison because the
transistor has so much greater amplification. If you apply enough local
feedback to a transistor amplifier to make it comparable to a triode, it's
often even more linear.

Yes, agreed, gain is cheap with transistors, but you are still assuming
that feedback is without its cost in sonic terms.

How about the internal feedback in triodes? :-)

And before you go off
on one of your rants, a zero (global) feedback SET does some things that
no other type of amp does.

Well, we can certainly agree on that!!

Yes, it has faults, thats why I don't at
the moment have one, and yes, to get it anywhere near usable you are
talking about a high cost if only for the iron. BUT, sit someone down
infront of a well designed SET,

That's kinda like 'military intelligence', ain't it? :-)

and a high enough sensitivity speaker
and it will communicate to them is a way that nothing else can.

Bull****.

And no, you can't sample that sound and push it through a comparitor.

IOW, it's all in your imagination, and your knowledge of the cost and
'exoticness' of the device.
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

Stewart Pinkerton wrote:
On Wed, 23 Jul 2003 00:51:14 +0100, Nick Gorham
wrote:


Stewart Pinkerton wrote:


If valves are so wonderful, why has nothing been produced which is
better than the 300B, in 70 years?

212

though looking at lines, I would say the 45 was way better than the 300b


The 845? That's a mid-thirties valve designed for use in radio
transmitters............

Agreed, but FWIW, I remember you rating this

http://www.nagrausa.com/nagra_VPA.htm

In a earlier post, its got them in.

--
Nick

Stewart Pinkerton wrote:


And no, you can't sample that sound and push it through a comparitor.


IOW, it's all in your imagination, and your knowledge of the cost and
'exoticness' of the device.

Maybe, not that bothered, but I don't see how its exotic, just the
reverse I would have said.

--
Nick

Could you be more specific by what you mean above? Under what specific
conditions of use, signal powers, etc, are you making the above comments?

These are excerpts from Lynn Olsen's very interesting site, not my words. You
have to read the original in full, rather than making comments on excerpts,
however tempting that may be! http://www.aloha-audio.com/ - look at the
Libraries section. Cheers, Andy

=== Andy Evans ===
Visit our Website:- http://www.artsandmedia.com
Audio, music and health pages and interesting links.