Valve amp (preferably DIY) to drive apair of Wharfedale Diamond II's
 

"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 9 Nov 2004 13:07:00 -0000, "Will Reeve"
wrote:

I'm too young to have witnessed valves the first time around and fancy
giving
them a go now for a Christmas project!

I love the look of the glowing valves; I do solid state
for a living and fancy something a bit different.

I like to compare the whole Hi-Fi world to my other passion...cars. I
think
the valve amp is a bit like a classic car, some can be cheap and bloody
good
fun (I have a TR7 V8 ragtop) other expensive and more reliable. I
certainly wouldn't want to do a long trip in a cheap one or use it as my
everyday reliable transport but as a bit of fun and something different
for
the weekend, why not?

On a more practical note I have a friend who can laser cut/drill highly
polished stainless steel, however I am having difficulty it finding where
I
can get wooded side panels made (I intend to use the stainless for the top
and bottom plates). So if anyone can make the wood I can get the plates
and
do a swap! I was thinking a nice varnished hardwood and polished stainless
would look very nice!

My budget is 150quid max (excluding enclosure) and something easy to wire
by
hand, not many valves, and warm sound to soften CD would be nice. Thanks
for
the links I have found from previous replies much better than the ones I
generated with Google. I have a few evenings of surfing / reading to do! I
guess transformers from somewhere like sowter will be 100quid of that
budget?

Correct, but OTOH the output transfomers are by far the most important
part of any valve amp. BTW, just one caveat if you 'do solid state for
a living' and fancy playing with valves - digging about inside valve
amps can get you *killed* very quickly! Do have proper respect for
large DC voltages with chunky amounts of current behind them, they'll
stop your heart in a heartbeat - so to speak.................

**Yep. I still have the scar on my forearm, from the top cap of an 807......



--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

Valve amp (preferably DIY) to drive apair of Wharfedale Diamond II's
 

"Will Reeve" wrote in message
...
Trevor Wilson wrote:
"Will Reeve" wrote in message
...
Not the easiest speaker to drive (they need a bit of power) but I
fancy giving valves a try.

**Why?

**This is an important question, which you seem to have overlooked.


Do you have a desire to buy an amp which:
* Delivers less power.

A small worry, but I don't play very loud and I believe when you push them
they "soft" clip so reducing the chance of tweeter frying?

**Many SS amps are similarly configured. NAD, for instance. In any case, a
similarly priced SS amp can often deliver far more power, thus reducing the
likelihood of clipping problems.


* Consumes more power.

I presume you mean less efficient, it's winter I will turn the heating
down
:-)

**And in Summer?


* Begins to wear out, from the first instant it is switched on.

I won't mention that I sometimes listen to vinyl then :-)

**Two wrongs don't make a right.


* Has a declining base of ready availability of spare parts.

I hope to use valves still manufactured and resistors / caps are readily
available (nothing exotic) from Farnell.

**Fair enough.


* Delivers a poorer frequency response.

Unlikely poorer than the speakers, these are small boxes!

**You'd think so, but again: Two wrongs don't make a right.


* Delivers higher levels of all types of distortion.

Isn't that why the sound different and appeal to many people?

**Sometimes. Sometimes, it is because that SOME valve amps exhibit certain
criteria which is superior to SOME SS amps. However, there is no excuse for
any audible distortion in any hi fi system.


* Possesses a poorer phase response.
Than a similarly priced SS amp?

Anyone have a recommendations where to start. The
system is 'budget' and well chosen, with a DPA Little Bit 3 DAC as a
main source and currently running a Cambridge Audio A1MkIII SE
transistor amp.

**A nice little Rotel RA02 will do nicely. It'll likely last a long
time, too.

Hi guys, thanks for the replies. I've been lurking on the group for a few
months and always enjoy the analogue/digital and valves/ss arguments :-) I
hope you don't mind but I will answer/comment on everyone's replies in one
post.

The wharefdale diamond 'speaker is a mid eighties very small shelf speaker
which
doesn't do 'low' and is a little inefficient. I love them. I believe they
were around 100quid when first available! I've just got a set of the
'super'
version which have real wood and veneered cabinets! They live in a
cluttered office and it's a timber framed house so not ideal acoustics.

**In their day, they were a fine speaker, at a very reasonable price.


I'm too young to have witnessed valves the first time around and fancy
giving
them a go now for a Christmas project!

**Which prompts the question, yet again: "Why?"



I love the look of the glowing valves; I do solid state
for a living and fancy something a bit different.

**Ah, the rationale.


I like to compare the whole Hi-Fi world to my other passion...cars. I
think the valve amp is a bit like a classic car, some can be cheap and
bloody good fun (I have a TR7 V8 ragtop) other expensive and more
reliable. I
certainly wouldn't want to do a long trip in a cheap one or use it as my
everyday reliable transport but as a bit of fun and something different
for the weekend, why not?

**There is no such thing as a good, CHEAP valve amp. Valve amps require to
use of a complex, heavy and expensive to manufacture pair of output
transformers. Each one will typically cost far more than a modest SS amp
(Rotel RA02, for instance). Cheap valve amps compromise in this one
important area. Their sonic and measured performance will suffer as a
result. Google: 'transformer interleave' for more information on why good
output transformers cost lots of money.


On a more practical note I have a friend who can laser cut/drill highly
polished stainless steel, however I am having difficulty it finding where
I can get wooded side panels made (I intend to use the stainless for the
top and bottom plates). So if anyone can make the wood I can get the
plates and do a swap! I was thinking a nice varnished hardwood and
polished stainless would look very nice!

My budget is 150quid max (excluding enclosure) and something easy to wire
by hand, not many valves, and warm sound to soften CD would be nice.
Thanks for the links I have found from previous replies much better than
the ones I generated with Google. I have a few evenings of surfing /
reading to do! I guess transformers from somewhere like sowter will be
100quid of that budget?

**Not even close. Your output transformers will eat up your entire budget.
And then some.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

Valve amp (preferably DIY) to drive apair of Wharfedale Diamond II's
 

On Tue, 09 Nov 2004 13:07:00 +0000, Will Reeve wrote:


My budget is 150quid max (excluding enclosure) and something easy to wire
by hand, not many valves, and warm sound to soften CD would be nice.
Thanks for the links I have found from previous replies much better than
the ones I generated with Google. I have a few evenings of surfing /
reading to do! I guess transformers from somewhere like sowter will be
100quid of that budget?


Have a look at the transformers he http://www.bluebellaudio.com/
Notice that the "general purpose" trannys are *way* cheaper than the "full
range" ones? The former won't sound anything like as good as the latter,
but I'm sure that you wouldn't be too upset - providing that you arn't
looking for a replacement for a ss hi-fi amp, cos they just arn't up to
that. (Sowter have an excellent reputation - but are not in the budget
class...). Also note that the p-p trannys are cheaper than similar rating
se designs. It is harder to design and build good se trannys. The
difference in cost between se and p-p can make a p-p amp cheaper to build
and better sounding (in some ways), even if you have to put more work into
it. For se you really *need* decent iron.

You *can* build a stereo valve amp for 150 quid, but it won't be hi-fi!
Don't be put off. If you really want to try this project then go ahead.
You can end up with something pleasant to listen to even if it measures
badly. So what? Do you listen to test CDs for fun?

I was quite serious before about se 6L6s. They make a good output valve
for a first project simply because they are octal (i.e. easy to
solder!), cheap and easy to get. The 125ESE trannys on the above site,
wired as 5k primary would be fine for this, and very economical. A pair of
1628SEs eats up all your budget at a stroke - and they are only considered
"fair" by true se fans.

One of my projects is based on this:
http://members.tripod.com/~gabevee/setube.html
but uses a 6SL7 as the first stage and a 6SN7 for the second (half for
each channel in each case of course). Currently the 6L6s are connected in
triode mode, with g2 fed via a resistor and diode from the anode. Not a
lot of power, but it sounds nice when fed from the CD player via a
home-built switched attenuator.

Get this: http://www.duncanamps.com/psud2/ to design your power supply.
(I wish it would run under linux!). If you do decide to use the 6L6 or one
of its versions then just watch the g2 volts. Its safer to keep the HT
below 270v if you want to use triode connection. About 150mA of HT should
do both channels quite easily, even if you decide to push the output up to
the full 10W or so in tetrode connection.

Do make sure that you follow safety advice if you go ahead though. Even if
a "belt" off the HT doesn't kill you it can make you drop a large, heavy
lump of amp on your foot.

--
Mick
(no M$ software on here... :-) )
Web: http://www.nascom.info

Valve amp (preferably DIY) to drive apair of Wharfedale Diamond II's
 

I guess transformers from somewhere like sowter will be
100quid of that budget?

**Not even close. Your output transformers will eat up your entire budget.
And then some.

Well, yes and no. Lundahls ain't cheap, for instance. But the Maplins £30 jobs
(6.6K) are surprisingly good - a friend measured some and the frequency
response is nice, and I've used them successfully. Thorsten Loesch also liked
them. That's a reasonable starting point. For £50 per OPT you start to have
more choice again - Hammonds through their UK distributor and a few UK makers
(e.g. Danbury and VVT). Once you start going up to about 6 off you can get some
very interesting deals, e.g. Antrim Transformers (www.antrimtransformers.com)
do a very nice toroidal at 5K for £50+VAT, and some very cheap toroidal mains
trannies to go with it - no more than £15 each, you specify the secondary
voltages. We could then go into Dutch winders and Europe in general. There's
really a lot out there at less than Sowter prices.

=== Andy Evans ===
Visit our Website:- http://www.artsandmedia.com
Audio, music and health pages and interesting links.

Valve amp (preferably DIY) to drive apair of Wharfedale Diamond II's
 

The 125ESE trannys on the above site,
wired as 5k primary would be fine for this, and very economical.

Mick is quite right about things in his post, and the above is a good idea,
widely used by fans. If you want some really good advice about building you
really should buy and read Morgan Jones' Valve Amplifiers ed 3 - it's worth
reading cover to cover and has some good (and some wacky) circuits. It's in 2
vols - start with the first.
I'd still defend the possibility of building a good valve amp for £150. You
would need to have a very good idea where to source parts and know some
interesting circuit possibilities using cheap but good valves. But it has been
done several times before (see posts on the audio asylum), though admittedly by
experienced builders with rather handy drawers of miscellaneous componants. It
can be done from scratch though - it wouldn't be difficult to make a really
good amp either. Andy

=== Andy Evans ===
Visit our Website:- http://www.artsandmedia.com
Audio, music and health pages and interesting links.

Valve amp (preferably DIY) to drive apair of Wharfedale Diamond II's
 

"Trevor Wilson" wrote in message
...

"Will Reeve" wrote in message
...
Not the easiest speaker to drive (they need a bit of power) but I fancy
giving valves a try.

**Why?


Why TF not??


Do you have a desire to buy an amp which:
* Delivers less power.
* Consumes more power.
* Begins to wear out, from the first instant it is switched on.
* Has a declining base of ready availability of spare parts.
* Delivers a poorer frequency response.
* Delivers higher levels of all types of distortion.
* Possesses a poorer phase response.
Than a similarly priced SS amp?


Jeez, where does all this come from - a book your Grandfather gave you
called 'Things That Boys Do That Make Them Go Blind'...???


Anyone have a recommendations where to start. The
system is 'budget' and well chosen, with a DPA Little Bit 3 DAC as a main
source and currently running a Cambridge Audio A1MkIII SE transistor amp.

**A nice little Rotel RA02 will do nicely. It'll likely last a long time,
too.


Oh ah - simply ooze 'personality' they do.

(I think the OP is seeking a little more 'soulfood' than just another slice
of 'ss ordinaire' - he's got a perfectly respectable little amp already in
the Cambridge Audio.... ;-)

Valve amp (preferably DIY) to drive apair of Wharfedale Diamond II's
 

"Will Reeve" wrote


I'm too young to have witnessed valves the first time around and fancy
giving
them a go now for a Christmas project!

I love the look of the glowing valves; I do solid state
for a living and fancy something a bit different.


Wait 'til you hear them - that's the bit that really ****es the 'sand amp'
brigade off!! ;-)



I like to compare the whole Hi-Fi world to my other passion...cars. I
think the valve amp is a bit like a classic car, some can be cheap and
bloody good fun (I have a TR7 V8 ragtop) other expensive and more
reliable. I
certainly wouldn't want to do a long trip in a cheap one or use it as my
everyday reliable transport but as a bit of fun and something different
for the weekend, why not?


What makes you think a well-built valve isn't up to regular, protracted
daily use?? Some people never turn them off!!



On a more practical note I have a friend who can laser cut/drill highly
polished stainless steel, however I am having difficulty it finding where
I can get wooded side panels made (I intend to use the stainless for the
top and bottom plates). So if anyone can make the wood I can get the
plates and do a swap! I was thinking a nice varnished hardwood and
polished stainless would look very nice!


Secondhand furniture/junk stores are a good source of thick bits of superb
hardwood for peanuts - they invariably have summat that is damaged but will
yield useful billets of timber. It all sands up a treat, good as new and can
be stained or oiled.....


My budget is 150quid max (excluding enclosure) and something easy to wire
by hand, not many valves, and warm sound to soften CD would be nice.
Thanks for the links I have found from previous replies much better than
the ones I generated with Google. I have a few evenings of surfing /
reading to do! I guess transformers from somewhere like sowter will be
100quid of that budget?


Go to Hammonds straight off to save money - Sowter and 'budget' don't
usually fit in the same sentence without one or two 'non-enablers'...



Keep well all,


And you.



Will


Won't! ;-)

Valve amp (preferably DIY) to drive apair of Wharfedale Diamond II's
 

On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 00:20:58 -0000, "Keith G"
wrote:

"Trevor Wilson" wrote in message
...

"Will Reeve" wrote in message
...
Not the easiest speaker to drive (they need a bit of power) but I fancy
giving valves a try.

**Why?

Why TF not??

Do you have a desire to buy an amp which:
* Delivers less power.
* Consumes more power.
* Begins to wear out, from the first instant it is switched on.
* Has a declining base of ready availability of spare parts.
* Delivers a poorer frequency response.
* Delivers higher levels of all types of distortion.
* Possesses a poorer phase response.
Than a similarly priced SS amp?


Jeez, where does all this come from - a book your Grandfather gave you
called 'Things That Boys Do That Make Them Go Blind'...???

No Keith, it all comes from reality, to which you seem blinkered. Care
to challenge *any* of the above points?

Anyone have a recommendations where to start. The
system is 'budget' and well chosen, with a DPA Little Bit 3 DAC as a main
source and currently running a Cambridge Audio A1MkIII SE transistor amp.

**A nice little Rotel RA02 will do nicely. It'll likely last a long time,
too.

Oh ah - simply ooze 'personality' they do.

The 'personaility' is supposed to come from the *music*, not the
frikkin' amp!

(I think the OP is seeking a little more 'soulfood' than just another slice
of 'ss ordinaire' - he's got a perfectly respectable little amp already in
the Cambridge Audio.... ;-)

Indeed so, and there's no harm in his trying out valves, if only to
discover how limited they really are. And hey, he might like the
sound, so he can stop worrying about 'hi fi'..........
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

Valve amp (preferably DIY) to drive apair of Wharfedale Diamond II's
 

On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 00:34:11 -0000, "Keith G"
wrote:


"Will Reeve" wrote


I'm too young to have witnessed valves the first time around and fancy
giving
them a go now for a Christmas project!

I love the look of the glowing valves; I do solid state
for a living and fancy something a bit different.

Wait 'til you hear them - that's the bit that really ****es the 'sand amp'
brigade off!! ;-)

You are the guys who get all '****ed off' when the obvious failings
of valve amps (and the bull**** you claim for them) are pointed out.
BTW, there's far more 'sand' in your hollow-state bottles than there
is in any SS amp.

I like to compare the whole Hi-Fi world to my other passion...cars. I
think the valve amp is a bit like a classic car, some can be cheap and
bloody good fun (I have a TR7 V8 ragtop) other expensive and more
reliable. I
certainly wouldn't want to do a long trip in a cheap one or use it as my
everyday reliable transport but as a bit of fun and something different
for the weekend, why not?

What makes you think a well-built valve isn't up to regular, protracted
daily use?? Some people never turn them off!!

They would have to replace the output valves pretty regularly, then!
The real question is, given that o/p valves begin deteriorating from
the moment you fire them up - just *how bad* do you let the sound get
before you change them?

On a more practical note I have a friend who can laser cut/drill highly
polished stainless steel, however I am having difficulty it finding where
I can get wooded side panels made (I intend to use the stainless for the
top and bottom plates). So if anyone can make the wood I can get the
plates and do a swap! I was thinking a nice varnished hardwood and
polished stainless would look very nice!

Only God can make the wood! :-)

Secondhand furniture/junk stores are a good source of thick bits of superb
hardwood for peanuts - they invariably have summat that is damaged but will
yield useful billets of timber. It all sands up a treat, good as new and can
be stained or oiled.....

Indeed so, but in actual fact, good old varnished pine looks just as
good, and is easier to carve into nice swirly shapes as used by Unison
Research.

My budget is 150quid max (excluding enclosure) and something easy to wire
by hand, not many valves, and warm sound to soften CD would be nice.
Thanks for the links I have found from previous replies much better than
the ones I generated with Google. I have a few evenings of surfing /
reading to do! I guess transformers from somewhere like sowter will be
100quid of that budget?

Go to Hammonds straight off to save money - Sowter and 'budget' don't
usually fit in the same sentence without one or two 'non-enablers'...

But you can forget bass and treble with cheap trannies...........
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

Valve amp (preferably DIY) to drive apair of Wharfedale Diamond II's
 

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"Trevor Wilson" wrote in message
...

"Will Reeve" wrote in message
...
Not the easiest speaker to drive (they need a bit of power) but I fancy
giving valves a try.

**Why?


Why TF not??

**See below.



Do you have a desire to buy an amp which:
* Delivers less power.
* Consumes more power.
* Begins to wear out, from the first instant it is switched on.
* Has a declining base of ready availability of spare parts.
* Delivers a poorer frequency response.
* Delivers higher levels of all types of distortion.
* Possesses a poorer phase response.
Than a similarly priced SS amp?


Jeez, where does all this come from - a book your Grandfather gave you
called 'Things That Boys Do That Make Them Go Blind'...???

**Nope. 35 years experience in:
* Listening to valve and SS amps.
* Building valve and SS amps (my first amps, tuners and preamps were all
valve types).
* Servicing valve and SS amps (I cut my teeth servicing guitar amps, at age
16).
* Logic and reason.



Anyone have a recommendations where to start. The
system is 'budget' and well chosen, with a DPA Little Bit 3 DAC as a
main source and currently running a Cambridge Audio A1MkIII SE
transistor amp.

**A nice little Rotel RA02 will do nicely. It'll likely last a long time,
too.


Oh ah - simply ooze 'personality' they do.

**Have you listened to a Rotel RA02? They're really very good. They
reproduce pretty much exactly what is fed into them, without altering the
signal in any meaningful fashion. IOW: They are REAL high fidelity
amplifiers. Like all real hi fi amps, the usual GIGO* applies. Likewise, if
the signal is superb, the little Rotel will allow that superbness to be
reaily apparent.


(I think the OP is seeking a little more 'soulfood' than just another
slice of 'ss ordinaire' - he's got a perfectly respectable little amp
already in the Cambridge Audio.... ;-)

**The Cambridge products, IME, are excellent. The small Rotel integrateds
are just a little better, IMO. As are Arcams.

*GIGO = Garbage In - Garbage Out.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au