Valve amp (preferably DIY) to drive apair of Wharfedale Diamond II's
 

In article , Keith G
wrote:

"Trevor Wilson" wrote in message
...

[snip]

Note to Jim Lesurf - if I don't see you pulling this clown up for not
snipping soon, I'll start to feel a bit 'singled out' - know wot I mean?

[snip]

I understand. :-)

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html

Valve amp (preferably DIY) to drive apair of Wharfedale Diamond II's
 

On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 06:34:47 +0000, Trevor Wilson wrote:


**Really? Can you provide your measurements to validate that fact? Here's
a few figures which your amps would need to meet, in order to provide
inaudible levels of distortion:

Frequency response: 20Hz - 20kHz (at, say, 1/3rd full power) +/- 0.1dB,
when operating into a real-world loudspeaker. Phase error: 20Hz - 20kHz -
+/- 5 degrees, when operating into a real-world loudspeaker.
Output impedance: Lower than 0.1 Ohm, from 20Hz - 20kHz (BTW: This is
where many run-of-the-mill SS amps fail)
THD: Less than 0.1% from 20Hz - 20kHz, at (say) 1/3rd maximum output. IMD:
Less than 0.1%.


Trevor, I respect your point of view, but some research has been done (and
its not for me to judge how well) which shows that:

Frequency response - bottom end is limited by the volume of the room. Few
are capable of producing a fundamental tone down to 20Hz, although the
harmonics may be produced. The amp's and speaker's responses can't change
this - especially if they are "flat".

Phase errors are generally not easily heard unless a listener has
previous experience in spotting these. When they are detected it is
perceived as location information, not distortion.

Output impedence of the amplifier - controlling the speaker damping - is
also inaudible to the majority of listeners unless it is *really* bad.

THD is meanongless in the real world. It is a great method of producing
comparisons between amps, but there are so many other factors to be taken
into consideration that, below something like 5%, it is completely
inaudible.

I'm not claiming that these are my own views. I generally don't consider
an amp bad unless I can hear the problems or it makes something smoke!


**Because many people imagine that because it has tubes, it must be
good. It is very important to show that this is not necessarily the
case. A valve amp may be good, or it may be bad.


Very, very true. Likewise a ss amp can sound absolutely appalling when
compared to a simple valve amp that has been designed and built well.
There are good and bad on both sides. IMHO some recordings sound better
via valves and some sound better via ss and for me the *sound* of the amp
is far more important than any figures attached to it. These preferences
may be a characteristic of my speakers!


**And I have never said anything of the kind. Except AM (though I did
build a superb, all valve, 4 stage TRF, with a triode infinite impedance
detector, when I was 16.).


And nothing sounds as nice as your own home-built stuff does it? I've been
there, done that! (for many years). My first trf used battery valves & ran
from suitable 90v and 1.5v batteries!


In fact, the last valve amp, I listened to, which I could easily live
with, was the Audio Research VT100. Trouble is, I regularly listen to
an SS amp which outperforms the VT100 at a significantly lower cost.



Lower cost - now we are getting to the point. Valves can't compete when
you talk of high quality watts per pound. I agree. But, you can't build
good, stable ss amps as easily as simple valve amps. The small size &
proximity of the components makes it far more difficult.

I would recommemnd that anyone who wants to try the "valve sound" should
build a simple amp and give it a go. The cost can be reasonable, providing
that you are happy with 10W or less and are willing to make sacrifices
both ends of the audible spectrum. Remember that adult males tend to have
a top end hearing limit at about 16kHz (above this the frequencies give
"presence" information) so this isn't necessarily a great loss. This isn't
hi-fi, I suppose, but does that matter when you are enjoying the music?


**Nothing makes me happy. I'm a grump.

Ah! Get the soldering iron out & build a little valve amp to cheer
yourself up!
:-)

--
Mick
(no M$ software on here... :-) )
Web: http://www.nascom.info

Valve amp (preferably DIY) to drive apair of Wharfedale Diamond II's
 

"Trevor Wilson" wrote in message
...

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"Trevor Wilson" wrote in message
...

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"Trevor Wilson" wrote


Additionally, if the input is sublimely perfect, any amp which
distorts, will ruin the goodness.


Sublimely perfect input??? Got any?

**Several.


You do?

**Yes.

What are they?

**You're joking, right? The list is too long to mention here.


Oh, sure...

OK, just two or three then - to give us an idea. Only we get to hear all
about this 'crappy amps' and 'perfect inputs' but we *never* get any
examples. The reason is too obvious to be worth a mention......

**I fail to see the point, but I'll grab a couple from my shelf, above my
bench, which I use for test purposes.
* Mary Black - Mission Demonstration disk
* Brahms - Cello Concertos (RCA)
* Chet Atkins - The Essential Chet Atkins
* Neil Diamond - You Don't Bring Me Flowers
* Christine Anu - Christine Anu

Happy now? What purpose did that serve.


Ah.

I thought you were talking about inputs as in *devices*......

(You know - what you get when you flick the 'Input Selector'....???)









Got an amp which *doesn't* distort?? Not at all???

**Several. None of which exhibit any AUDIBLE distortions. More to the
point: Do YOU have any amplifiers which exhibit no audible
distortions, when used with real-life loudspeakers?


None of my amps disort audibly that I or anyone else here can detect.

**Really? Can you provide your measurements to validate that fact?


Wake up dummy - read the words 'I' and 'can detect' again, also try to
get the notion that just a few of us actually *listen* to the music and
don't just watch it on a scope.....

**Now I understand. You KNOW that your amplifiers do not audibly distort,
but you have no way yo prove it. That makes sense.


Certainly it does - if music/voices on my kit didn't sound exactly like I
expect it/them to, I'd get rid.



I have news for you: If your amps do not meet or exceed the parameters I
have outlined, they do, in fact, audibly distort.


Not that I can detect - why do you have a problem grasping this?





snip bollockology

restore facts and figures, which you seem to be extremely uncomfortable
in discussing

Frequency response: 20Hz - 20kHz (at, say, 1/3rd full power) +/- 0.1dB,
when operating into a real-world loudspeaker.
Phase error: 20Hz - 20kHz - +/- 5 degrees, when operating into a
real-world
loudspeaker.
Output impedance: Lower than 0.1 Ohm, from 20Hz - 20kHz (BTW: This is
where
many run-of-the-mill SS amps fail)
THD: Less than 0.1% from 20Hz - 20kHz, at (say) 1/3rd maximum output.
IMD: Less than 0.1%.


Interesting/useful to a manufacturer or designer, of little importance to
the end user. Mention 'distortion' and 'flat response' to one or two people
I know in the racket and they'll laugh their arses off!





(What,
do you think we sit here listening to 'audible distortion'...??? :-)

**Yes.


Well, I reckon Swim's a better judge than yew, me auld china (played
clart in the presence of Queenie at the RCM and a colleague of Tony
Michaelson for 3 years or so) so it'll be alright if I go along with her
opinion and discard yours, will it?

**I have no idea who "Swim" is. So, no.


Swim = SWMBO

I put a clart piece on she says it's OK. I put it on a valve amp she says
it's 'very real'. I put it on the triode amp she says it's the 'most real
yet' - who am I to argue???







There's much tub-thumping about 'high fidelity' and 'straight wires
with gain' - like one type of amp absolutely fits these criteria and
another type don't.

**Few amplifiers actually fit that description, WHEN DRIVING REAL
LOUDSPEAKERS.


No need to shout, me auld shagger...

**There is, sometimes.


No, really, there isn't....

**Sure there is. You still seem to be hung up on:

Valves = Good
Transistors = Bad


Hmmm...


This is faulty logic.


You're not kidding....


There are some very fine valve amplifiers. There are some really bad valve
amplifiers. There are some very fine SS amplifiers and some really bad SS
amplifiers. Just because an amplifier uses a particular active devices,
does not automatically convey a measure of goodness (or badness) on that
product. However, at a given price level (assuming good design), a SS
amplifier will always outperform a valve amp.


I'm not sure what this is all leading up to. First off, I love all these
'qualified' statements we keep seeing like 'crappy valve amps' and 'at a
given price level', 'good design' etc. etc.

Next, I'm not nearly as convinced as you seem to be that we're tit-deep in
'bad' amplifiers. Call it a sheltered upbringing if you like, but I'm not
sure I've ever heard a *bad* amplifier....???

(Are bad amps like fleas? - The more you seek, the more you find and the
more you find, the happier you be??)

Then you seem to be very comfortable presuming that I would choose *any*
valve amp over *any* ss amp, come what may?? Wrong, asitappens, but I've yet
to hear an ss amp I could live with other than during the single week's hot
weather we get in the UK...

(First thing to go with ss is the 'soundstage', you see.....)







Quite a few manage it with dummy loads and sine waves, however.

(Not to mention whatever input or amp is used, the speakers and the
room will have the final say, in any case....)

**Strawman, duly noted.


Geekboy 'Usenet' terminology duly noted.....

**Strawman, duly noted.


Geekboy 'Usenet' terminology duly noted.....

**Your further strawman is duly noted.


Your further Geekboy 'Usenet' terminology duly noted.....





(You been talking to the other opinionated, non-UK loudmouth that hangs
around in here by any chance?)

**That depends.


Thought as much....


What does that tell you? They got no place in this ng for a start?

**Not at all. I have stated, ad nauseum, that a REALLY GOOD valve
amplifier


You're shouting again - do try to hold it together, there's a good
chap.

**Clearly I need to shout. You don't seem to pay attention.


Won't get (or keep) my attention by shouting muchacho, saying something
interesting is all it takes - try it.....

**I try to. You just ignore the truth. Just try to follow my logic, once
in awhile.


You have no logic, you have only prejudice and dogma....





Who's discussing cheap, crappy valve amps?

**The original poster.


Oh ah? And where do you see that, then? Nothing in there that I could
see - he mentions a valve amp (preferably DIY) and that he's got a budget
system - make the classic mistake of confusing the two different
statements, did we??? ;-)

**Nope. A DIY'er is, by definition, after a bargain (or an education).
Further, it is safe to assume that his choice of speakers suggests that he
is on a tight budget. If I am wrong, I will be happy to retract my
assumption.


Absolute ******** - a very unsafe presumption at best...






- That's your usual (what's that
term - 'strawman'?) little injection into the proceedings isn't it??

**Nope.


Not nope - yep...

**I could have said: "Non-sequitur".


I could have said "Non est ad astra mollis e terris via
".....







Or that
can subscribe here if they perform some sort of 'confession' or make
an obeisance to their (wiser) betters?

**Education never hurt anyone.


Agreed - try some.

**What would you suggest? Vaccuum tube theory? Nope. I can get by.


Start with 'Ubu Roi' by Alfred Jarry (1896) - it's an allegory of Digital
Theory predating the concept by nearly a hundred years. You should find
it interesting.....

**Why? I am not discussing digital. I am discussing signals in the
analogue domain.


That too...








Ever see a valvie give an ss type a hard
time because he doesn't like/use valves?

**Every single day.


Must be hell....

**It is distressing being surrounded by fools.


There there, never mind - if you don't look straight at them, they'll all
go away soon....


Again with the 'cheap, crappy valve amps' - you really don't have an
argument do you? Why not just say *broken* amps and be done with it???

**Because many people imagine that because it has tubes, it must be
good.

???


It is very important to show that this is not necessarily the case.


It is?? To whom??

**To the poor fools who have been deluded by the marketers of shoddy valve
amps, masquerading as decent products.


You must have 'em on every street corner.....

(Paid the full ML 'Red Rose' price for a chinky amp, did they?)





A valve amp may be good, or it may be bad.


Stressy, isn't it...??? :-)

**Not at all. A quick set of measurements will soon sort out the good and
the bad.



Stoppit, please - most of us just chuck the ****ing music on and listen
to it. We ain't 'measuring' it or giving it marks out of ten! We play
it the best way we like to hear it - is that really too hard to
understand??

**Not at all.


Note to Jim Lesurf - if I don't see you pulling this clown up for not
snipping soon, I'll start to feel a bit 'singled out' - know wot I mean?


He ain't snipping, I ain't snipping - we've done all this before.....






The trouble with you *extreme* CD/SS types is you really got nowhere to
go, have you?

**Now you're engaing in projection. I suggest you do some homework,
before attempting to tar me with a brush you tar others with.

It can't be vinyl, it can't be valves, it can't be MP3s, it can't
be 24/92 or 24/192, it can't be AM, it can't be DAB, it can't be 78s,
it can't be cassettes, it can't be mono etc. etc. etc..

**And I have never said anything of the kind. Except AM (though I did
build a superb, all valve, 4 stage TRF, with a triode infinite impedance
detector, when I was 16.).


I'll say it again: The trouble with you *extreme* CD/SS types is you
really got nowhere to go, have you?

**More projection. Do your homework, before shooting your mouth off.
Here's where you have to prove that I have ever defended 16/44 digital as
being the "ultimate" signal source.


I don't have to prove diddly dick.....


For the record:


Records are not digital....


* I use MP3 in my car. It is entirely adequate, in that environment.
* I stopped using cassettes a couple of years ago. (I used to own a
Nakamichi 100ZXL)
* I listen to AM radio, every Saturday morning. It's a local show called
The Weekend Woodies. http://www.abc.net.au/sydney/photogalleries/woodies/
* I have always felt that 16/44 digital is inadequate to compete with the
VERY BEST (sorry to shout) vinyl available.


First thing you've said that made any sense....


* I have always detested 78s.
* I like 15ips reel to reel.





**Means nothing to me. There are some crappy SS amps on the market.


Really?

**Yes, really.

That's news to me - can you name one current, freely available (in
the UK, of course) make and model??

**One of the most ordinary, I encounter reasonably frequently is the
Audiolab 8000A. It can deliver gobs of current, but sounds terrible. As
for current models, just pick up any sub-1,000 Squid surround sound
receiver. They all sound horrible. Any brand.


Ooh, that's going to ruffle the feathers of someone here.....

**I don't give a ****. It is a horrible sounding amplifier (yes, I've
compared it blind).


I've never heard one - all I've ever heard is that they are supposed to be
good???




Kills me the way you
'anti****s' try to fit this group up with your own wacky little
prejudices and then try to wipe it off on those of us who have declared
time and time again we don't give a rat's arse what you or anyone else
prefers or uses....

Still, if it makes you happy.....???

**Nothing makes me happy. I'm a grump.


Not as grumpy as me - I've got the sodding 'flu and haven't had a wink of
sleep all night......

**There are two Aussie inventions you should (have) tried. It is too late
now, as you need to use them at the first signs.
Tamiflu and Relenza. I find them to be remarkably effective (and
expensive).


We have Lemsip in the UK.....

(Says it all really.... :-)




(Might get mi second Chinky valve amp today tho' - that'll cheer me up!
:-)

**You deserve it. If you must, you really should try to lay your hands on
a second hand ARC VT100. Superb amp.


Sounds a little out of my price range.....

Question: Why *Rage* Audio...???

(Sounds a little uptight to me...... ;-)

Valve amp (preferably DIY) to drive apair of Wharfedale Diamond II's
 

"Paul Dormer" wrote in message
...
"Keith G" emitted :

Swim = SWMBO

I put a clart piece on she says it's OK. I put it on a valve amp she says
it's 'very real'. I put it on the triode amp she says it's the 'most real
yet' - who am I to argue???

"Clart"???

Gotta know what this mean... please elucidate.. ;-)


Clart = Clartfart = B flat Clarinet !! ;-)


Mistakenly thought by some to be an easy instrument to reproduce with audio
kit - not so to a player's ear, believe you me...!!!

Put it another way - I can have something pretty loud on and Swim can enter
the room and cut it in half with a 'toot on her floot'!! (Clarinet, that
is... ;-)

Valve amp (preferably DIY) to drive apair of Wharfedale Diamond II's
 

"Paul Dormer" wrote in message
...
"Keith G" emitted :

**Nope. A DIY'er is, by definition, after a bargain (or an education).
Further, it is safe to assume that his choice of speakers suggests that
he
is on a tight budget. If I am wrong, I will be happy to retract my
assumption.

Absolute ******** - a very unsafe presumption at best...

Yep.. consider Graham (The Devil) Trevor... I don't believe he's below
the poverty level, yet he builds/mods his own amps...



Quite and plenty of people go the DIY route to use the *best* (most
expensive) components and to see the job's done right....

Valve amp (preferably DIY) to drive apair of Wharfedale Diamond II's
 

"mick" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 06:34:47 +0000, Trevor Wilson wrote:


**Really? Can you provide your measurements to validate that fact? Here's
a few figures which your amps would need to meet, in order to provide
inaudible levels of distortion:

Frequency response: 20Hz - 20kHz (at, say, 1/3rd full power) +/- 0.1dB,
when operating into a real-world loudspeaker. Phase error: 20Hz - 20kHz -
+/- 5 degrees, when operating into a real-world loudspeaker.
Output impedance: Lower than 0.1 Ohm, from 20Hz - 20kHz (BTW: This is
where many run-of-the-mill SS amps fail)
THD: Less than 0.1% from 20Hz - 20kHz, at (say) 1/3rd maximum output.
IMD:
Less than 0.1%.


Trevor, I respect your point of view, but some research has been done (and
its not for me to judge how well) which shows that:


snip good stuff


Well said Mick - I have mentioned only recently that a lot of 'pros' just
laugh if you mention certain 'distortion' figures etc. Too much playing of
'Top Trumps' here, where particularly high or low (meaningless, in the real
world) figures are paraded about like badges of honour to impress the unwise
and gullible...



**Nothing makes me happy. I'm a grump.

Ah! Get the soldering iron out & build a little valve amp to cheer
yourself up!
:-)


Can't fail....!!!

;-)

Valve amp (preferably DIY) to drive apair of Wharfedale Diamond II's
 

"Ian Molton" wrote in message

Paul Dormer wrote:
"Stewart Pinkerton" emitted :


You are the guys who get all '****ed off' when the obvious failings
of valve amps (and the bull**** you claim for them) are pointed out.


Your numerous mechanical watches are less accurate than a £1.99
digital watch which can be had from any market stall. End of.

The point being that I really doubt Stuart would class them as
'better' in that respect.

that said, the quality of the engineering in a good mechanical watch
is going to be LIGHT years ahead of a 1.99 digital watch, and I'll bet
it'll last a damn sight longer before disintegrating.

Depends how you define quality engineering. No doubt the chip in the digital
watch is produced to finer mechanical tolerances.

As far as watches disintegrating goes, its been decades since I replaced a
digital watch because it stopped working and couldn't be resucistated with a
cheap battery.

I usually end up replacing my watches for reasons of appearance, a problem
that extends to cheap mechnaical watches as well.

Note that there are very few truely mechanical cheap watches - most of them
have a chip oscillator or some kind of battery-powered gizmo near their
heart.

Valve amp (preferably DIY) to drive apair of Wharfedale Diamond II's
 

"Paul Dormer" wrote in message


To some people SS amplification doesn't sound as realistic as a decent
valve setup.

Some people think that the theology of the Jehovah's Witnesses or
Scientology rings true. What's your point?

Do you deny people their real-world perceptions??

It's not news that perceptions can be illusory.

I think you should cut folk some slack.. it's subjective.

Radical subjectivism is an intellectual hidey-hole. It's a way that poorly
informed people can think they are right, even when they are obviously
wrong.

Valve amp (preferably DIY) to drive apair of Wharfedale DiamondII's
 

Paul Dormer wrote:

To some people SS amplification doesn't sound as realistic as a decent
valve setup. Do you deny people their real-world perceptions?? I think
you should cut folk some slack.. it's subjective.

The point is a (competant) SS system can sound *exactly* like ANY valve
system, so arguably anyone buying valve gear is resricting their choice
of reproduction styles.

Now if people buying valve gear would just say its because they *prefer*
the sound rather than saying the sound is *better* (how can it be given
SS systems can reproduce it), there would be no problems :-)

Valve amp (preferably DIY) to drive apair of Wharfedale DiamondII's
 

Nick Gorham wrote:

I am sure you will have studied physics, name me one case where
perception does reflect exactly what is actually going on ?

Ever looked at one of those pictures that looks like its moving but isnt?