Vinyl 'bitrates'
 

"Trevor Wilson" wrote in message



**16/44 digital can't even reproduce a decent 5kHz square wave.

Well, it would have the fundamental and third harmonic so the resulting
wave would have plenty of ripple.


Such a
feat is a doddle for a good vinyl system. Do you think you can hear the
difference between a 5kHz square wave and a 5kHz sine wave? Hint: You
probably can.

Probably can, but what sort of musical instrument produces square waves?
And ... what sort of loudspeakers can reproduce a square wave? I think
the Quad ESLs can.



**Nope. In fact, a good vinyl recording can go well past 50kHz.

surely you mean "a good analogue recording transcribed to vinyl"?
I mentioned before that I was under the impression that vinyl cutters
have trouble etching high frequencies onto the vinyl.

The mighty Dynavector 10D-II can operate to 60kHz.
The square wave
performance of this very fine cartridge is exemplary.

that is the performance of the cartridge, not the LP

Vinyl 'bitrates'
 

On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 22:16:34 +0000, Kurt Hamster
wrote:

On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 19:59:30 +0000 (UTC), Stewart Pinkerton used
to say...

They don't, which was my entire point regarding my CV, which mostly
concerns precision electronics *vastly* more demanding than domestic
audio. Know any domestic gear that can detect a submarine's distinct
sonic signature at 2,000 miles?

I would be more impressed with its relevance if it could reproduce a
submarine's distinct sonic signature at 2,000 miles?.

Of course it can, you ****. You amplify and store the incoming sound,
then compare it to the database of known signatures. As ever, you are
indulging in ignorant ranting on a subject about which you know
nothing.

Basically you're full of ****. You think because you can do one thing it
automatically gives you the ability to do another.

In so far as I've designed and built more than a dozen high-quality
audio amplifiers, it certainly does give me that ability. You clearly
don't understand much about electronics. I was *designing* audio range
ADCs in the '70s, before the music industry started *using* them.

You're just an amateur who thinks he can do a professional's job but
have never had the bottle to actually do it.

What 'bottle'? Who the heck wants to build and sell 'high end' audio
gear to the sort of 'subjectivist' ******s who buy it? An amateur does
a thing for the love of it, a 'professional' does it for money.
Despite common perception, there's no skill level implied in those
descriptions. As ever, you're just a sad untalented loser who hates
anyone else having a good time with their hobby.
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

Vinyl 'bitrates'
 

On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 16:05:30 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

"Trevor Wilson" wrote in message

"Tat Chan" wrote in message

**Nope. In fact, a good vinyl recording can go well past 50kHz.

In *fact*, almost all commercial vinyl is rolled off above 15kHz or
so. The only vinyl you'll find with higher frequencies is the old
half-speed mastered stuff from MFSL, and the quadraphonic discs which
used a 30kHz subcarrier, 20dB below normal level - and which didn't
survive many playings.

Not very loud, not very clean and not for very many playings.

The mighty Dynavector 10D-II can operate to 60kHz.
The square wave performance of this very fine cartridge is exemplary.

Irrelevant, since there's nothing above 20kHz on vinyl for it to
reproduce.
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

Vinyl 'bitrates'
 

On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 14:21:21 +1100, Tat Chan
wrote:


"Trevor Wilson" wrote in message



**16/44 digital can't even reproduce a decent 5kHz square wave.

Well, it would have the fundamental and third harmonic so the resulting
wave would have plenty of ripple.

And it'll look a damn sight better than a 5kHz square wave off vinyl,
which will also only contain third harmonic, and maybe a trace of
fifth.

Such a
feat is a doddle for a good vinyl system.

Utter bull****. Have you *ever* seen a 5kHz square wave off vinyl? It
doesn't matter that the cartridge *could* reproduce it, you'll never
cut it into the vinyl.

Do you think you can hear the
difference between a 5kHz square wave and a 5kHz sine wave? Hint: You
probably can.

Probably can, but what sort of musical instrument produces square waves?
And ... what sort of loudspeakers can reproduce a square wave? I think
the Quad ESLs can.

**Nope. In fact, a good vinyl recording can go well past 50kHz.

Name one. Since you can't, stop bull****ting.

surely you mean "a good analogue recording transcribed to vinyl"?
I mentioned before that I was under the impression that vinyl cutters
have trouble etching high frequencies onto the vinyl.

The mighty Dynavector 10D-II can operate to 60kHz.
The square wave
performance of this very fine cartridge is exemplary.

that is the performance of the cartridge, not the LP

Exactly.
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

Vinyl 'bitrates'
 

On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 21:53:03 -0000, "Keith G"
wrote:

"Trevor Wilson" wrote in message
...

"Tat Chan" wrote in message
...
Keith G wrote:

A while back I made a reference to a woolly memory of something I had
read in HFW to do with Tim de P's views on bitrates and their vinyl
equivalents and said I would post a reference to it, if it ever
appeared. Well it's popped up out of the blue and is, of course, nothing
like I remembered it.

It's on 2 pages of the April 2004 edition:

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/keit.../article01.jpg

plus the top left paragraph he

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/keit.../article02.jpg


The 'bitrates' are nothing to do with vinyl it seems - simply Tim De
P's idea of a minimum requirements for digital to come even close.


so Tim de P reckons that digital should be 24/400, eh?
Most people can't hear above 20kHz, and 400kHz would allow signals with
frequency content of up to 200kHz be reproduced perfectly. A bit of a
waste, isn't it? Though 200kHz would better capture the harmonics of a
square/triangle wave.

**16/44 digital can't even reproduce a decent 5kHz square wave. Such a
feat is a doddle for a good vinyl system. Do you think you can hear the
difference between a 5kHz square wave and a 5kHz sine wave? Hint: You
probably can.


24-bit resolution would imply a dynamic range of 144dB. That's pretty
loud!


Now, having said all this, I still have another memory that there are
some pretty impressive figures somewhere that compare vinyl 'information
flow' very favourably with digital bitrates, but I've no idea where from
and have no intention of trying to find out. - I don't need to,


Vinyl only has (at best) 70 - 78 dB of dynamic range, which equates to
12 - 13 bits resolution, and I am sure vinyl is bandwidth limited as well
(cuts off at 16kHz?).

**Nope. In fact, a good vinyl recording can go well past 50kHz. The mighty
Dynavector 10D-II can operate to 60kHz. The square wave performance of
this very fine cartridge is exemplary.


Isn't the extra "frequency content" associated with vinyl a byproduct of
the mechanical replay system?

**In poor systems, yes. In good systems, no.

In *any* system, definitely yes, since even the mighty Rockport Sirius
III with an Insider cartridge, will still be playing the same tired
old vinyl, which has nothing but noise above 20kHz, despite Trevor's
bull**** claims.

OK Mr Wilson, that was rather neatly done - I have to admit that....

Neat perhaps, utter ********, definitely.
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

Vinyl 'bitrates'
 

On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 22:31:18 GMT, "Trevor Wilson"
wrote:


"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Trevor Wilson wrote:
Vinyl only has (at best) 70 - 78 dB of dynamic range, which equates to
12 - 13 bits resolution, and I am sure vinyl is bandwidth limited as
well (cuts off at 16kHz?).

**Nope. In fact, a good vinyl recording can go well past 50kHz. The
mighty Dynavector 10D-II can operate to 60kHz. The square wave
performance of this very fine cartridge is exemplary.

Just where are you going to get the source material to cut on this disk?
Or are you restricting it to direct cut?

**Direct cut, of course. Commercial LPs were all pretty much crap.

Name one single vinyl disc, direct cut or half-speed mastered, with
50kHz content. Once you've failed to do that, tell us how, even if it
had been true, this would have any relevance to music lovers. I've
only ever heard a couple of direct-cut discs that had even halfway
decent *music* on them.

--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

Vinyl 'bitrates'
 

On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 02:38:58 -0000, "Keith G"
wrote:

"Tat Chan" wrote

I was under the impression that the LP disc cutters had problems placing
high frequencies ( 20kHz???) onto the LP.

Where did that impression come from??

Probably from the fact that test discs have the 20kHz cut on the first
track to give it a fighting chance, and it's cut at 1cm/sec, about
26dB below peak level.

And doesn't each playing of the LP remove a bit of the high frequency
content?

Yeah - play 'em twice and they're ****ed!! ;-)

Depends on your cart, but the old quadraphonic discs with the 30kHz
carrier at -20dB sure didn't last many playings!
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

Vinyl 'bitrates'
 

Tat Chan wrote:


Ah, but if you look down to the atomic level, isn't a sound wave
composed of the presence of discrete atoms? So the atom is either there
or it isn't ...

sounds binary to me!


Look a bit further down, and you find it all changes again, becomes
colapsing state vectors and uncertainty, nothing like binary.

See other post about reality not being as its percieved :-)

--
Nick

Vinyl 'bitrates'
 

Tat Chan wrote:
Nick Gorham wrote:

Tat Chan wrote:


24-bit resolution would imply a dynamic range of 144dB. That's pretty
loud!


Minor point, only if you start at 0dB


Vinyl only has (at best) 70 - 78 dB of dynamic range, which equates
to 12 - 13 bits resolution, and I am sure vinyl is bandwidth limited
as well (cuts off at 16kHz?).


I could show you a 20kHz sine from a test disk, if that helps.


I was under the impression that the LP disc cutters had problems placing
high frequencies ( 20kHz???) onto the LP.

Thats a impression, doesn't mean its true.Just because they had
problems, doesn't mean that solutions were not found to the problem.


And doesn't each playing of the LP remove a bit of the high frequency
content?

Maybe, but I have 45 year old LP's thats still sound clear and bright,
so I don't know.

--
Nick

Vinyl 'bitrates'
 

Keith G wrote:
Not a problem to anyone with real balls - they set their own
opportunities up and take control of their lives....

Just like you, eh, keith?