Vinyl 'bitrates'
 

Kurt Hamster wrote:
On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 06:42:56 +0000 (UTC), Stewart Pinkerton used
to say...

Of course it can, you ****. You amplify and store the incoming sound,
then compare it to the database of known signatures. As ever, you are
indulging in ignorant ranting on a subject about which you know
nothing.

Must have a hell of a good pair of speakers to reproduce exactly eh?

Was it a set of Magneplanars driven by a Krell?

I didnt notice him say the sound was played for human ears (although it
may have been, if it was in the AF range)

Vinyl 'bitrates'
 

"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 21:53:03 -0000, "Keith G"
wrote:


so Tim de P reckons that digital should be 24/400, eh?
Most people can't hear above 20kHz, and 400kHz would allow signals with
frequency content of up to 200kHz be reproduced perfectly. A bit of a
waste, isn't it? Though 200kHz would better capture the harmonics of a
square/triangle wave.

**16/44 digital can't even reproduce a decent 5kHz square wave. Such a
feat is a doddle for a good vinyl system. Do you think you can hear the
difference between a 5kHz square wave and a 5kHz sine wave? Hint: You
probably can.


24-bit resolution would imply a dynamic range of 144dB. That's pretty
loud!


Now, having said all this, I still have another memory that there are
some pretty impressive figures somewhere that compare vinyl
'information
flow' very favourably with digital bitrates, but I've no idea where
from
and have no intention of trying to find out. - I don't need to,


Vinyl only has (at best) 70 - 78 dB of dynamic range, which equates to
12 - 13 bits resolution, and I am sure vinyl is bandwidth limited as
well
(cuts off at 16kHz?).

**Nope. In fact, a good vinyl recording can go well past 50kHz. The
mighty
Dynavector 10D-II can operate to 60kHz. The square wave performance of
this very fine cartridge is exemplary.


Isn't the extra "frequency content" associated with vinyl a byproduct
of
the mechanical replay system?

**In poor systems, yes. In good systems, no.

In *any* system, definitely yes, since even the mighty Rockport Sirius
III with an Insider cartridge, will still be playing the same tired
old vinyl, which has nothing but noise above 20kHz, despite Trevor's
bull**** claims.



Really!! When did YOU do the tests? or is it just hearsay once again. Back
in those olden days of quadraphonic you needed a cartridge with an upper
range of around 40-45kHz. Mon dieu, the 'humble' Grado Reference cartridge
response is 10Hz - 60kHz and that's not approaching that of an Insider
cartridge! Though I note you don't even mention which Insider cartridge
model in your example so I guess its just hearsay once again - the Insider
Gold cartridge far exceeds the specifications of the Grado Reference as
you'd expect if you knew about hi-end cartridges. Hint, light years away
from any commercial AT cartridge.....

Why should vinyl be bandlimited to 20kHz? there is no real need to, I
suspect its because it suits your own reasoning as CD is bandlimited.
Come on Stewart.. you've only just discovered the way that cutter heads are
cooled ;-)

Iain is sending me some of his recordings. Would you be so kind to send me
an example of your recordings?




OK Mr Wilson, that was rather neatly done - I have to admit that....

Neat perhaps, utter ********, definitely.
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

Vinyl 'bitrates'
 

"Keith G" wrote in message


Tat, I thought you were an OK guy but, sad to say, it seems you are
just another 'digi****'

Yet another example of one who prefers vinyl and consistently stays away
from name-calling.

Vinyl 'bitrates'
 

"Keith G" wrote in message

"Tat Chan" wrote



I was under the impression that the LP disc cutters had problems
placing high frequencies ( 20kHz???) onto the LP.


Where did that impression come from??

The study of science. While the CD format can handle FS @ 20 KHz with
aplomb, 20 KHz can't possibly be recorded on vinyl at anything like peak
levels.

Vinyl 'bitrates'
 

In article , Stewart Pinkerton
wrote:
On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 10:55:14 +0000 (GMT), Jim Lesurf
wrote:

In article , Nick Gorham
wrote:


I could show you a 20kHz sine from a test disk, if that helps.

But at what level, and with how much distortion? And at what point on
the LP?

Test discs are, as you obviously know, always cut with the HF on the
outer tracks, and generally at a standard modulation level of 1cm/sec,
some 26dB below peak level. I have the EMI TCS101 and TCS 102 test
discs, which certainly conform to this standard.

I was not sure what the standard was[1] for normal test discs, but what you
say does not surprise me at all. :-)

Slainte,

Jim

[1] May have known mumble-mumble years ago, but if so, long since
forgotten...

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Vinyl 'bitrates'
 

In article , Nick Gorham

wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article , Nick Gorham
wrote:

I could show you a 20kHz sine from a test disk, if that helps.


Depends on your definition of sine wave. ;-)


Well if I sample it at CD sampling rates, I would guess its much the
same as anyone else's definition ;-)

LOL. :-)

....unless perhaps you did a stereo recording and noted the level of stereo
seperation...

Although I guess tests like 16/18kHz intermod might show up a difference.
pun

Slainte,

Jim

--
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Vinyl 'bitrates'
 

In article , Trevor Wilson
wrote:

"Tat Chan" wrote in message
...


**16/44 digital can't even reproduce a decent 5kHz square wave. Such a
feat is a doddle for a good vinyl system. Do you think you can hear the
difference between a 5kHz square wave and a 5kHz sine wave? Hint: You
probably can.

What definition of 'decent' are you using here? Just been looking at some
reviews that show 1kHz squarewaves and these show all sorts of ringing,
rounding, droop, etc. Some of which is reported as cutter produced.


Vinyl only has (at best) 70 - 78 dB of dynamic range, which equates to
12 - 13 bits resolution, and I am sure vinyl is bandwidth limited as
well (cuts off at 16kHz?).

**Nope. In fact, a good vinyl recording can go well past 50kHz. The
mighty Dynavector 10D-II can operate to 60kHz. The square wave
performance of this very fine cartridge is exemplary.

At what level, and at what distortion? I'd also wonder what the cut
squarewave might look like after a few dozen playings...

I don't have info on the 10D/II to hand, but I'm looking at squarewaves for
the 20A/II and DV100R. No idea how similar these are, but the results do
show a wide bandwidth, albeit with an overshoot and ultrasonic ringing. Not
clear how much of this is due to the cutter or a matching resonance with
the preamp, though.


Isn't the extra "frequency content" associated with vinyl a byproduct
of the mechanical replay system?

**In poor systems, yes. In good systems, no.

Depends what you mean. The dynavectors I just mentioned seem to have THDs
similar to most others. i.e. order of 1% around 0dB/1kHz and rising with
both frequency and amplitude, as well as worse as you approach the inner
groove. Hence I would expect them to produce some ultrasonic components due
to nonlinearity. (This is one reason we have to treat squarewave tests with
care as the distortion may be making the shape look 'sharper' than a linear
response sweep would confirm if filtered to remove distortion products. My
experience is that these sorts of things in cartdidges are subject to the
same sort of 'pass the parcel' tweaking as the distortion, etc, in FM
receivers. You can make some measures look nicer by allowing others to
degrade, or by choosing specific circumstances with care.)

Slainte,

Jim

--
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Vinyl 'bitrates'
 

In article , Ian Molton
wrote:
Jim Lesurf wrote:

Above about 50kHz the main output from SACD will be the 'hash' from
the 1 bit noise shaping scheme. I don't think Philips really want us
to hear that...

I'd be interested to know how they'd force us to hear it even if they
wanted to :)

I think they are really hoping that any such attempt would fail. Otherwise
SACD may be in trouble. :-)

The curio here is that one of the arguments that seem to be forwarded for
SACD is the wider bandwidth. Yet if this is audible it may call into
question the acceptability of the HF hash.

Slainte,

Jim

--
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Vinyl 'bitrates'
 

In article ,
Ian Molton wrote:
Jim Lesurf wrote:

Although as John has pointed out, there is some work that shows that
'ultrasound' may have audible effects at times.

I read a fascinating article once about church organs with ultrasonic
pipes in them. Apparently the audience can eb affected emotionally
despite being unbale to actually hear the sound.

This is taking us back to Oohashi... :-)

Slainte,

Jim

--
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Vinyl 'bitrates'
 

In article , Stewart Pinkerton
wrote:
On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 02:38:58 -0000, "Keith G"
wrote:


And doesn't each playing of the LP remove a bit of the high frequency
content?

Yeah - play 'em twice and they're ****ed!! ;-)

Depends on your cart, but the old quadraphonic discs with the 30kHz
carrier at -20dB sure didn't last many playings!

You've just reminded me that one of the papers I came across a few days ago
was one that measured the effects of baseband and subcarrier signals
interfering with each other due to distortion...

Slainte,

Jim

--
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