Amp swap disappointment
 

"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 04 Dec 2004 03:41:48 GMT, "Steve Batt"
wrote:


"JustMe" wrote in message
...
Following recent discussions about distortion and an amp's ability to
reproduce without colouration, I though I'd relay a recent experience.

In an earlier thread I had pointed out that my favourite amp would be
described by many on here as noisy and of inferior design on the basis
that
the sound may be coloured or because its performance seems to be
sensitive
to it reaching an optimum temperature.

I swapped this amp (an Alchemist Kraken APD6a II) for an Audiolab
8000LX
which had been packed up for a short time. Many on here will be
familiar
with this amp, if only by reputation.

The first thing I observed was how much more comfortable I was with the
look, feel, ergonomics and operation of the Audiolab. I can put things
on
top of it, for starters (I don't block the air from circulating though
the
vents, don't worry), the buttons are all cool to the touch - not *hot*
like
the Alchemist, both the input and record selector switches feel the
same
and
it all operates with a great deal of assurance. It also has a lovely
1/4"
headphone jack on the front panel, which is very useful.

Just one problem. It's boring to listen to. I've been running the
Alchemist
in exactly the same setup for a few months and in switching to the
Audiolab,
and having listened for about a weeks now, I'm totally uninspired. The
sound
is very clean and aesthetically it's all very balanced and even handed,
which is fine on paper, but it doesn't entertain me.

If I were a recording artist, first and foremost I'd want those
listening
to
my music to be entertained, inspired & moved by it. The Audiolab
doesn't
do
that for me, the Alchemist does. For all its supposed colour, for all
its
foibles, operational quirks - whatever you like - it is by any sensible
measure of what a hifi should be and do, better.

It's a similar difference that I experience when listening to vinyl
compared
with CD...

A friend had a 8000, was so bland compared to my Cyrus 2 (at the time)

Excellent! Amps are not *supposed* to have character, that's the job
of the performer!............
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

Yeah, but they ain't sposed to take away from the sound stage or dynamics
etc.


Steve

Amp swap disappointment
 

In article ,
Steve Batt wrote:
Yeah, but they ain't sposed to take away from the sound stage or dynamics
etc.

To do either, you'd need a system which was compressing in some way and
with poor or non linear channel separation and or matching. All of which
should be easily checked with the correct gear.

--
*Happiness is seeing your mother-in-law on a milk carton

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Amp swap disappointment
 

On Sat, 04 Dec 2004 09:00:14 GMT, "Steve Batt"
wrote:


"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 04 Dec 2004 03:41:48 GMT, "Steve Batt"
wrote:

"JustMe" wrote in message
...

If I were a recording artist, first and foremost I'd want those listening to
my music to be entertained, inspired & moved by it. The Audiolab doesn't do
that for me, the Alchemist does. For all its supposed colour, for all its
foibles, operational quirks - whatever you like - it is by any sensible
measure of what a hifi should be and do, better.

Only to *your* ears..............

It's a similar difference that I experience when listening to vinyl compared
with CD...

Yup, you do seem to love distortion! :-)

A friend had a 8000, was so bland compared to my Cyrus 2 (at the time)

Excellent! Amps are not *supposed* to have character, that's the job
of the performer!............

Yeah, but they ain't sposed to take away from the sound stage or dynamics
etc.

And sure enough, the good ones don't.

OTOH, plenty of amps will *add* what sounds like extra 'depth' and
'punch', but is really just IMD and clipping. Bizarrely, a reduced
dynamic range often sounds more 'dynamic'. All radio station sound
engineers are well aware of this trick.
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

Amp swap disappointment
 

"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 04 Dec 2004 09:00:14 GMT, "Steve Batt"
wrote:


"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 04 Dec 2004 03:41:48 GMT, "Steve Batt"
wrote:

"JustMe" wrote in message
...

If I were a recording artist, first and foremost I'd want those
listening to
my music to be entertained, inspired & moved by it. The Audiolab
doesn't do
that for me, the Alchemist does. For all its supposed colour, for
all its
foibles, operational quirks - whatever you like - it is by any
sensible
measure of what a hifi should be and do, better.

Only to *your* ears..............

Indeed - this is, by any sensible measure, what a hifi should do: sound
better to *my* ears. Whether *you* like it or not has no bearing on *my*
choice.

That's why a market full of different-sounding products exists: to cater for
all our different tastes.

Besides, how do you know that my ears don't have an imperfection (whose ears
are perfect anyway?) which counters my favourite amp's own imperfections (or
vice versa) and brings it into "straight-line"? For all you know, the 8000S
might sound terribly coloured to me, regardless of how a machine measures
it.

It's a similar difference that I experience when listening to vinyl
compared
with CD...

Yup, you do seem to love distortion! :-)

Suits me!

A friend had a 8000, was so bland compared to my Cyrus 2 (at the time)

Excellent! Amps are not *supposed* to have character, that's the job
of the performer!............

Yeah, but they ain't sposed to take away from the sound stage or dynamics
etc.

And sure enough, the good ones don't.

OTOH, plenty of amps will *add* what sounds like extra 'depth' and
'punch', but is really just IMD and clipping. Bizarrely, a reduced
dynamic range often sounds more 'dynamic'. All radio station sound
engineers are well aware of this trick.

I have never found the dynamic range compression employed by many radio
stations to do anything more than suck the life, soul and energy out of the
music being transmitted - it sounds ****.

AFAIK this is done for accessibility rather than to give a perception of
increased dynamism (this does sound peverse) - to make the listen tolerable
in noisy environments such as cars, factory floors etc.

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

Amp swap disappointment
 

In article , JustMe
wrote:

"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
...

Only to *your* ears..............

Indeed - this is, by any sensible measure, what a hifi should do: sound
better to *my* ears. Whether *you* like it or not has no bearing on *my*
choice.

What about the view that some of us don't really want the *hi fi* to
'sound' of anything - just the music? :-)

That's why a market full of different-sounding products exists: to cater
for all our different tastes.

Besides, how do you know that my ears don't have an imperfection (whose
ears are perfect anyway?) which counters my favourite amp's own
imperfections (or vice versa) and brings it into "straight-line"? For
all you know, the 8000S might sound terribly coloured to me, regardless
of how a machine measures it.

Alternatively, what about the possibility that you could conclude that your
*ears* sound 'coloured' on the basis of the above since they would
presumably have the same effect when you listen to live music? :-)


OTOH, plenty of amps will *add* what sounds like extra 'depth' and
'punch', but is really just IMD and clipping. Bizarrely, a reduced
dynamic range often sounds more 'dynamic'. All radio station sound
engineers are well aware of this trick.

I have never found the dynamic range compression employed by many radio
stations to do anything more than suck the life, soul and energy out of
the music being transmitted - it sounds ****.

The compression applied by radio stations, etc, tends to be various forms
of 'gain riding' where the gain is altered as the music plays - sometimes
also altering the frequency response. However the compression applied by an
amp going into clipping would not behave like this as it would distort the
waveforms and introduce extra components, not just alter the gain. Hence
you can expect the two forms of 'compression' to not sound the same.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html

Amp swap disappointment
 

On Sun, 5 Dec 2004 01:49:13 -0000, "JustMe" wrote:


"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 04 Dec 2004 09:00:14 GMT, "Steve Batt"
wrote:


"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 04 Dec 2004 03:41:48 GMT, "Steve Batt"
wrote:

"JustMe" wrote in message
...

If I were a recording artist, first and foremost I'd want those listening to
my music to be entertained, inspired & moved by it. The Audiolab doesn't do
that for me, the Alchemist does. For all its supposed colour, for all its
foibles, operational quirks - whatever you like - it is by any sensible
measure of what a hifi should be and do, better.

Only to *your* ears..............

Indeed - this is, by any sensible measure, what a hifi should do: sound
better to *my* ears. Whether *you* like it or not has no bearing on *my*
choice.

Absolutely - never suggested otherwise. But once you start using terms
like 'by any sensible measure', you're getting into dangerous OSAF
territory.

That's why a market full of different-sounding products exists: to cater for
all our different tastes.

Besides, how do you know that my ears don't have an imperfection (whose ears
are perfect anyway?) which counters my favourite amp's own imperfections (or
vice versa) and brings it into "straight-line"? For all you know, the 8000S
might sound terribly coloured to me, regardless of how a machine measures
it.

Nope, that can't happen, because you'd be using the same ears to
listen to a live performance.
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

Amp swap disappointment
 

In article ,
JustMe wrote:
AFAIK this is done for accessibility rather than to give a perception of
increased dynamism (this does sound peverse) - to make the listen
tolerable in noisy environments such as cars, factory floors etc.

And since cars have got quieter - and factories certainly due to H&S regs
- it makes one wonder how anything was ever heard in the days before
overall signal processing was used?

--
*The closest I ever got to a 4.0 in school was my blood alcohol content*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Amp swap disappointment
 

If I were a recording artist, first and foremost I'd want those
listening to
my music to be entertained, inspired & moved by it. The Audiolab
doesn't do
that for me, the Alchemist does. For all its supposed colour, for
all its
foibles, operational quirks - whatever you like - it is by any
sensible
measure of what a hifi should be and do, better.

Only to *your* ears..............

Indeed - this is, by any sensible measure, what a hifi should do: sound
better to *my* ears. Whether *you* like it or not has no bearing on *my*
choice.

Absolutely - never suggested otherwise. But once you start using terms
like 'by any sensible measure', you're getting into dangerous OSAF
territory.

But, as I have explained repeatedly, any discussion of a subjective issue
is, by its nature, merely opinion and not fact and, therefore, there is no
need to insert the qualifying "IMO".

Therefore you can take this as read and I can save myself a few unneccessary
strokes on the keyboard by not STO :o)

Amp swap disappointment
 

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
In article , JustMe
wrote:

"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
...

Only to *your* ears..............

Indeed - this is, by any sensible measure, what a hifi should do: sound
better to *my* ears. Whether *you* like it or not has no bearing on *my*
choice.

What about the view that some of us don't really want the *hi fi* to
'sound' of anything - just the music? :-)



Surprised to see you bother to pen this old chestnut, Jimbo - there is
*no-one* here who gets to hear 'just the music'......

Amp swap disappointment
 

Only to *your* ears..............

Indeed - this is, by any sensible measure, what a hifi should do: sound
better to *my* ears. Whether *you* like it or not has no bearing on *my*
choice.

What about the view that some of us don't really want the *hi fi* to
'sound' of anything - just the music? :-)

Well in your case I guess you'd build an amp to suit your own taste ;o)

In my case, I'll listen to a few and pick the one that I like the most -
much like everyone else.

That's why a market full of different-sounding products exists: to cater
for all our different tastes.

Besides, how do you know that my ears don't have an imperfection (whose
ears are perfect anyway?) which counters my favourite amp's own
imperfections (or vice versa) and brings it into "straight-line"? For
all you know, the 8000S might sound terribly coloured to me, regardless
of how a machine measures it.

Alternatively, what about the possibility that you could conclude that
your
*ears* sound 'coloured' on the basis of the above since they would
presumably have the same effect when you listen to live music? :-)

Indeed. Then "straight-line" is irrelevant in this context, as attending a
live performance has less to do with sound-quality and more to do with the
experience and atmosphere of the occassion.

That being the case, home listening is not about straight-line at all, as
the only way one can enjoy a live event, is to attend it. Home music
reproduction is something different and shouldn't try to be something that
it isn't.

OTOH, plenty of amps will *add* what sounds like extra 'depth' and
'punch', but is really just IMD and clipping. Bizarrely, a reduced
dynamic range often sounds more 'dynamic'. All radio station sound
engineers are well aware of this trick.

I have never found the dynamic range compression employed by many radio
stations to do anything more than suck the life, soul and energy out of
the music being transmitted - it sounds ****.

The compression applied by radio stations, etc, tends to be various forms
of 'gain riding' where the gain is altered as the music plays - sometimes
also altering the frequency response. However the compression applied by
an
amp going into clipping would not behave like this as it would distort the
waveforms and introduce extra components, not just alter the gain. Hence
you can expect the two forms of 'compression' to not sound the same.

I appreciate that there are different types of compression. I was referring
specifically to the dynamic range compression employed by broadcasters,
separate to other steps along the transmission line or in the reproduction
equipment of the listener. It is this to which I was specifically objecting.