"tony sayer" wrote


Is that for real??

Very real I'm afraid. Most all of them haven't any idea other than to
sling up and aerial, and a cheap as possible one at that and cheap
cable, and poke it where next doors is pointing. Just saw a
"prestigious" new residential development today that has sprouted a
communal aerial, and all three aerials TV, FM and DAB were aimed at
sandy heath whereas at that location the FM station for Cambridge is
some 90 odd degree's different!, and for that matter so is DAB!...


The Lord preserve us from '*professionals*!!

I *always* prefer to do thing myself - I've seen experts **** just about
everything up in my time! It's just that I wanted a quick fix this time!

You know, it's 'Monday' (OK, Tuesday this time), it's ****ing with rain and
black as the Ace of Spades and you just want a *result*!!


Should just cancel the appointment anyway, you'll do it right yourself
and save money and get a better result I'd wager, unless you have found
someone who does know what he's doing, but I'll bet your bottom dollar
the FM aerial he'll supply won't be a Traix or Antiference, it'll more
than likely be one of those Maxview abortions, which He'll swear blind
works fine guv!...


OK, I'll let them come round and we'll see...

(The 'ballpark figure' is *from* 49 quid, all in...??)


Well one has too this have been on the go for over a year now!.


Not solidly - this is only Round 2, Day 2.......!! :-)


Makes me wonder where U get the time to listen to all that PVC stuff U
have!.....


Oh sure, it ain't easy, but I manage somehow!! :-)

In article , Keith G
wrote:

"Jim Lesurf" wrote


and the mystery is that the sound is plenty good enough in mono, but
goes scratchy in stereo if I snap the switch while the meter remains
the same??

No mystery.

Stereo requires a much higher signal level than mono. Rule of thumb
being ten times the power.


It is a mystery - if the meter means anuthing at all (and I concede that
it might not) how'ss it going to ghet any better thean 4.5 out of 6...??

First tell us the actual signal levels (in mV or dBm) which correspond to
'4.5' and '6'... Without that info, we have no way to know what the numbers
mean. Arbitrary values on a scale of unknown non-linearity.

Bear in mind that many tuners have signal indicators that reach full-scale
on quite weak signal levels. The makers want people to think their tuner is
'very sensitive' and so this is used to miselad people. I don't know if
this is the case with your tuner, but it might be.

Hard to be precise about this as it varies a lot with location. However a
dipole above your roof may well get you 6dB or more than one in the room.
And using a decent directional antenna might increase that by around
another 10dB. Thus it is quite likely that changing from a dipole in the
room to a decent antenna on the roof will make a large difference to stereo
reception in the situation you describe.

However, this assumes you tuner is a good one, and is in good working
condition. Also that there are no specific sources of interference or
multipath in your location. So time will tell... :-)

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
In article , Keith G
wrote:

"Jim Lesurf" wrote


and the mystery is that the sound is plenty good enough in mono, but
goes scratchy in stereo if I snap the switch while the meter remains
the same??

No mystery.

Stereo requires a much higher signal level than mono. Rule of thumb
being ten times the power.


It is a mystery - if the meter means anuthing at all (and I concede that
it might not) how'ss it going to ghet any better thean 4.5 out of 6...??


Sorry, my fault - that should read 4.5 out of 5!!


First tell us the actual signal levels (in mV or dBm) which correspond to
'4.5' and '6'... Without that info, we have no way to know what the
numbers
mean. Arbitrary values on a scale of unknown non-linearity.


Tbh, I have no idea how to measure them properly.


Bear in mind that many tuners have signal indicators that reach full-scale
on quite weak signal levels. The makers want people to think their tuner
is
'very sensitive' and so this is used to miselad people. I don't know if
this is the case with your tuner, but it might be.


No idea, it seems fairly sensitive...???


Hard to be precise about this as it varies a lot with location. However a
dipole above your roof may well get you 6dB or more than one in the room.
And using a decent directional antenna might increase that by around
another 10dB. Thus it is quite likely that changing from a dipole in the
room to a decent antenna on the roof will make a large difference to
stereo
reception in the situation you describe.


Yes, I'm hoping so!! :-)



However, this assumes you tuner is a good one, and is in good working
condition. Also that there are no specific sources of interference or
multipath in your location. So time will tell... :-)


OK, the geezer is due 'within the hour' (nightshift?) - they have phoned to
mess me about a couple of times so I thought WTF and threw Tony's comments
at them pretty hard. The guy fielded them quite well - they don't like loft
aerials (40% loss of signal), they use meters to set the aerial up, they
supply Triax and some French make aerials (Televes...???), so I have said OK
come and price it anyway.....

We'll see....

In article , Keith G
wrote:

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...


First tell us the actual signal levels (in mV or dBm) which correspond
to '4.5' and '6'... Without that info, we have no way to know what the
numbers mean. Arbitrary values on a scale of unknown non-linearity.


Tbh, I have no idea how to measure them properly.

Nor do most users. Nor have the kit required. A few tuners come with
calibrated scales (or have been calibrated by a review measurement). [1]

The problem is that your '5' might mean 100 microV, or it might mean 1mV.
or almost any other value... Ditto for '4.5'... Just pretty marks printed
on a dial.


Bear in mind that many tuners have signal indicators that reach
full-scale on quite weak signal levels. The makers want people to
think their tuner is 'very sensitive' and so this is used to miselad
people. I don't know if this is the case with your tuner, but it might
be.


No idea, it seems fairly sensitive...???

But how would you know? Have you some measurement of how much signal the
antennas you have used with it provide?

The problem is that the signal levels that can give 'reasonable mono' are
*much* less than required for good stereo. Most tuners can provide
listenable mono from quite low signal levels. But good stereo may require
much high signal powers.

Above said, your tuner is probably about as sensitive as most, and like
most people, what you have lacked is a good antenna. But you can't tell
from numbers off the 'tuning meter'. Hence some makers arrange for a 'full
scale reading' from low powers. This means that in a shop people will say,
"Hey, look, this is showing a much higher reading than the other tuners.
Must be more sensitive! I'll buy that one." :-)

Slainte

Jim

[1] The Yamaha CT7000 is an example of this as Angus McKenzie did a
calibration for his old HFN review. I checked mine in the lab many years
ago, and got essentially the same results. The scale is quite close to
being 'log' scaled and covers an unusually wide and useful range.

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html

OK, the geezer is due 'within the hour' (nightshift?) - they have phoned to
mess me about a couple of times so I thought WTF and threw Tony's comments
at them pretty hard. The guy fielded them quite well - they don't like loft
aerials (40% loss of signal),

Agreed

they use meters to set the aerial up,

Good..

they
supply Triax

Good too)

and some French make aerials (Televes...???

Ruddy rooftop bling!...

), so I have said OK
come and price it anyway.....

We'll see....

Do let us know:;_))




--
Tony Sayer

"tony sayer" wrote


Well thanks for that. I'll see how convincing they are tomorrow. If it
doesn't sound good I'll tell 'em to bugger off!

Should just cancel the appointment anyway, you'll do it right yourself
and save money and get a better result I'd wager, unless you have found
someone who does know what he's doing, but I'll bet your bottom dollar
the FM aerial he'll supply won't be a Traix or Antiference, it'll more
than likely be one of those Maxview abortions, which He'll swear blind
works fine guv!...


Nope..Just give it the signal it needs, and it will do its Job....


Yess!! I *know** - don't keep nagging about it!!

Well one has too this have been on the go for over a year now!.


OK, an update...

The guy finally turned up after more 'he's on his way' calls at about 4
o'clock. He's got 15 years in the game and fits *only* Triax aerials. He
comes from Mansfield but one job he did locally (here) wuz the aerials at
Arcam apparently??

He's fitted a Halo type ('cos the bugger didn't have a 4 element FM aerial
in the van) at the 'other end' of the house and I now have impeccable mono
and reasonable (not perfect) stereo - although it's better now than a couple
of hours ago when he was here. He worked hard to clean it up and gave in -
he'll be back on Tuesday to fit a 4 element jobbie for no extra charge on
the Halo price of 89 +VAT all in.

He also didn't have his spectrum analyser (away for servicing) and admitted
the metering wasn't as good as it might be. Nice enough bloke and I bloody
*knew* it was going to be a bit more involved than me flinging summat upside
the house!! (I'll DIY anything and have DIYed a damn sight more than most,
but when I get a 'funny feeling' I leave it to the experts!! ;-)

Oh and yes - he did want to fit it to the exposed gable end!! I told him
'now way' - which is just as well as Swim ain't gonna love it, where it is!!
:-)

Not *that* cheap, but I'm not too displeased atm and will be very happy
if/when the 4 element finishes the job off. (Ididn't tell him, but just to
get a superb mono was better than a poke in the eye for me!!)

Thanks for your input Tony - gave me enough ammo to stop him fitting me up
like the proverbial smoked herring!!

"tony sayer" wrote in message
...
OK, the geezer is due 'within the hour' (nightshift?) - they have phoned
to
mess me about a couple of times so I thought WTF and threw Tony's comments
at them pretty hard. The guy fielded them quite well - they don't like
loft
aerials (40% loss of signal),

Agreed

they use meters to set the aerial up,

Good..

they
supply Triax

Good too)

and some French make aerials (Televes...???

Ruddy rooftop bling!...

), so I have said OK
come and price it anyway.....

We'll see....

Do let us know:;_))


Bugger! I just did! :-)

In article ,
Keith G wrote:
He's fitted a Halo type ('cos the bugger didn't have a 4 element FM
aerial in the van) at the 'other end' of the house and I now have
impeccable mono and reasonable (not perfect) stereo - although it's
better now than a couple of hours ago when he was here. He worked hard
to clean it up and gave in - he'll be back on Tuesday to fit a 4
element jobbie for no extra charge on the Halo price of 89 +VAT all in.

Anyone who fits one of those as a matter of course doesn't fill me with
confidence. ;-(

--
*A conscience is what hurts when all your other parts feel so good *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Keith G wrote:
He's fitted a Halo type ('cos the bugger didn't have a 4 element FM
aerial in the van) at the 'other end' of the house and I now have
impeccable mono and reasonable (not perfect) stereo - although it's
better now than a couple of hours ago when he was here. He worked hard
to clean it up and gave in - he'll be back on Tuesday to fit a 4
element jobbie for no extra charge on the Halo price of 89 +VAT all in.

Anyone who fits one of those as a matter of course doesn't fill me with
confidence. ;-(


The horse**** (before I found out he didn't have a 4 element on board) was
that we are close to the transmitter and that Halos have -ve gain???? He
pointed one out 2/3 doors down that I hadn't even seen! (The guy in the
office said they fit Halos only to caravans!!??)

The 4 element aerial he is coming back to fit has elements 6' long (?)
apparently - Swim's already *not too impressed* with the Halo!! (I'm between
a rock and a hard place here!! :-) Reception is already miles better but
stereo is *not* perfect, but an aerial that big (on a bungalow) ain't gonna
get me any Brownie Points........

Interesting to see the tuner's rock steady now - the needle's over to max (I
know it means nothing) and doesn't move at all! Interesting also that the
stations have all shifted about a bit! (??)

On Wed, 04 Jan 2006 16:14:33 +0000 (GMT), Jim Lesurf
wrote:

In article , Keith G
wrote:

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...


First tell us the actual signal levels (in mV or dBm) which correspond
to '4.5' and '6'... Without that info, we have no way to know what the
numbers mean. Arbitrary values on a scale of unknown non-linearity.


Tbh, I have no idea how to measure them properly.

Nor do most users. Nor have the kit required. A few tuners come with
calibrated scales (or have been calibrated by a review measurement). [1]

The problem is that your '5' might mean 100 microV, or it might mean 1mV.
or almost any other value... Ditto for '4.5'... Just pretty marks printed
on a dial.


Bear in mind that many tuners have signal indicators that reach
full-scale on quite weak signal levels. The makers want people to
think their tuner is 'very sensitive' and so this is used to miselad
people. I don't know if this is the case with your tuner, but it might
be.


No idea, it seems fairly sensitive...???

But how would you know? Have you some measurement of how much signal the
antennas you have used with it provide?

The problem is that the signal levels that can give 'reasonable mono' are
*much* less than required for good stereo. Most tuners can provide
listenable mono from quite low signal levels. But good stereo may require
much high signal powers.

Above said, your tuner is probably about as sensitive as most, and like
most people, what you have lacked is a good antenna. But you can't tell
from numbers off the 'tuning meter'. Hence some makers arrange for a 'full
scale reading' from low powers. This means that in a shop people will say,
"Hey, look, this is showing a much higher reading than the other tuners.
Must be more sensitive! I'll buy that one." :-)

Slainte

Jim

[1] The Yamaha CT7000 is an example of this as Angus McKenzie did a
calibration for his old HFN review. I checked mine in the lab many years
ago, and got essentially the same results. The scale is quite close to
being 'log' scaled and covers an unusually wide and useful range.

I think most meters should be close to log. I would guess that most
tuners use one of the standard IF chips, and these have an RSSI output
pin that is capable of probably 70 to 80 dB of dynamic range. The
output is naturally log given the way it is derived. The question then
resolves to the simple one of how big a resistor the maker has put in
series with the meter.

d

Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com