Keith G wrote:

"Patrick Turner" wrote

Potting does allow a maker to hide all his mistakes.

And keep his secrets......


Since nobody much addresses all the concerns I have for a low price,
I wind my own.

I don't care a hoot about what the chinese prices are.

Yes you do, you are on about them (and Chinese wages) all the time....

I need to make some distinctions.

I meant that I am not going to react in any way to chinese practices and
prices.
I will do what business I must without chinese prices affecting what i do.

Put it this way, there may be ppl who think I should, for 400 pounds, fit
out their loungerooms with
beautiful monoblock 845 SET amps that are custom built and 4 times the
power of the
chinese amp which can be bought for 400pounds with 2 x 300B SET for
stereo.
They are in for a shock to their psyche.

I wouldn't lift the soldering iron to match the chinese price for 300B
amps.

I have my price, and I **don't care** that it may be 4 times the chinese
price for the *same thing*.

I might add that when one builds 300 watt class AB tube amps with 100
watts of class A capacity
then the price per watt plummets.
One could make a stereo PP 50/50 for about usd $4,000, and that's $40 per
watt.
But for $12,000, one can make a pair of 300 watt mono amps.


I did recently build a custom one off phono preamp with two fets and 6
tubes
on a brass chassis for about usd $1,100, which included a dramatic rebuild
of the
existing power supply the guy already had that i built 5 years ago to
power a stand alone line stage preamp,
and a rebuild of that preamp to suit the whole set up better to suit the
SEUL power amps.
I think he got a deal that was fairer than anyone else in Oz.


There are phono preamps around for usd $100. Ppl are welcome to buy one
from a store someplace,
and I would even make a custom one for someone wanting opamps
if i had the time and was desperate for work, but I am not.

The multi tube phono stage was aquired by a guy who has already spent
usd $3,500 for a box full of opamps in a Sutherland battery powered
phono stage.
He also has a Lehman Black Cube.

I hope that he finally recognises the tube item i have prepared is the
best sounding of the stable of
preamps that he uses.
The recognition may only come after a month or two of swapping between the
amps.
And should there be any doubts, I won't hesitate to try tweaks to
improove matters, but the designs I use have already been subject to
years of R&D.

Considering the Sutherland cost so much more than what I made, and
from what i see and hear at least does no more, I think I have offered a
good deal.
Should some chinese gentleman wander near with something tubey
that is a better deal, then I would be surprised.

If I were to charge my labour at plumber's rates of usd $40 per hr then I
certainly
would be charging what the market would not bear, and I'd never get a job.

I do all this craft work at artists' wage rates which are always
notoriously lower than average weekly earnings.

Only about 1 in every 100 or 1,000 artists or artisans ever make a really
good wage from their handiwork.
Many drive taxis to make ends meet.
One reason i am competitive is that i own my house, pay no rent, have a
good workshop i built myself
30 years ago, and do not have the expenses of a family, rarely drink,
don't smoke,
and enjoy frugality.

I like what I do, and take the time to get everything right, and so
the final result is a lasting testament to good tube craft.

I see no reason why i should not explain to all about the obvious
pricing background to chinese amplifiers.

Some ppl don't give a hoot about where the milk for their cafe latte'
comes from, as long
as its cheap, or cheaper yet.

Patrick Turner.

Cessna172 wrote:

Cessna172 wrote in
. 240.10:

"Ian Iveson" wrote in news:hs0vf.71396
:

What's the bass like at volume into
ordinary mainstream speakers? How well does the piano cope with the
tympani? Or light cymbals with saxophone? Is Mahler muddled?


Interesting question ;-)


Following that up, what issues would you expect to hear using a valve amp
into ordinary modern speakers?

Issues are inaudible.

What you hear with good tube amps is unblemished hi-fi.

Patrick Turner.



--
Cessna172

Patrick Turner wrote in
:



Cessna172 wrote:

Cessna172 wrote in
. 240.10:

"Ian Iveson" wrote in
news:hs0vf.71396 :

What's the bass like at volume into
ordinary mainstream speakers? How well does the piano cope with
the tympani? Or light cymbals with saxophone? Is Mahler muddled?


Interesting question ;-)


Following that up, what issues would you expect to hear using a valve
amp into ordinary modern speakers?

Issues are inaudible.

What you hear with good tube amps is unblemished hi-fi.


In response to a question, you responded with "What's the bass like at
volume into ordinary mainstream speakers". What prompts that question and
what bass issues are you decribing?

I am testing a solid state amp against a valve amp into "ordinary modern
speakers". This test will decide if I stick with SS or get valves.

--
Cessna172

"Cessna172" wrote


Following that up, what issues would you expect to hear using a valve
amp into ordinary modern speakers?

Issues are inaudible.

What you hear with good tube amps is unblemished hi-fi.


In response to a question, you responded with "What's the bass like at
volume into ordinary mainstream speakers". What prompts that question and
what bass issues are you decribing?

I am testing a solid state amp against a valve amp into "ordinary modern
speakers". This test will decide if I stick with SS or get valves.



Just remember you are using a worthy but cheap *entry level* amp, Ray....

(I wouldn't dare offer it up to one of Pat's 'room heaters'...!! :-)

"deryck lant" wrote


it with a spring balance setup later, but if it is only 13 kg that's a
very
naughty bit of BS!! - A lot of people use 'trannie iron' and weight/size
ratio as something to go on! (Meaningless in the long run I suppose.....)

18kg is I imagine the shipping weight.


Good pint! I checked the paperwork and the Seller's own handriting gives it
as 15.9kg - still ain't the 18 kg on the eBay auction is it? :-)

Charlie Chan is a very wily man! ;-)


Really enjoy your informative posts.


Thank you - unlike others sharing their wisdom, I like to share my
ignorance! (Mine's better because of all the pix!! :-)


A good valve amp into large Magneplanar speakers is a sound from heaven.

Never heard 'em but I'm fast coming to the conclusion that 'air pumps'
aren't the best way to hear good music. My cheap, trashy Chinese 300B amp
playing into a pair of speakers with drivers *right now* is sounding pretty
damn good!! :-)

"Patrick Turner" wrote in message
...


Keith G wrote:


I don't care a hoot about what the chinese prices are.

Yes you do, you are on about them (and Chinese wages) all the time....

I need to make some distinctions.

I meant that I am not going to react in any way to chinese practices and
prices.
I will do what business I must without chinese prices affecting what i do.


I would expect no less. If I was an amp builder (for profit) and someone
told me you can get an amp for 400 quid off eBay I'd tell 'em to FO and go
get one!



Put it this way, there may be ppl who think I should, for 400 pounds, fit
out their loungerooms with
beautiful monoblock 845 SET amps that are custom built and 4 times the
power of the
chinese amp which can be bought for 400pounds with 2 x 300B SET for
stereo.
They are in for a shock to their psyche.


See above...



I see no reason why i should not explain to all about the obvious
pricing background to chinese amplifiers.

Some ppl don't give a hoot about where the milk for their cafe latte'
comes from, as long
as its cheap, or cheaper yet.


Feck me Patrick - 'cheap foreign imports' have been around since Pontius wuz
a pilot....

There's no need to panic - a marketplace exists for all if you can get to
it....

One thing that do tickle me a bit is that it seems you small, specialist
builders will rant about cheap imports but none of you ever say much about
'kit suppliers' who will put hundred of of big fat volts into *anybody's*
hands?? I had to chuckle when one supplier told me he had a customer once
who twisted all the 'spare wires' of a power tranny together and taped them
up - blew the house fuses (unsurprisingly) and shut his mum's telly off in
the middle of Coronation Street or summat!! :-)

Jon Yaeger wrote:
in article , Rob at
wrote on 1/4/06 2:32 PM:


Patrick Turner wrote:

Keith G wrote:


-snip-

OK if it sounds better than this:

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/jaau...aaudio300b.htm

and looks as good, I'll order one - 400 quid OK with you (with valves)...???


I don't think Ian could buy the parts and materials for less than 400quid,
or about usd $700.
I doubt Sowter could do the 2 OPTs and PT and a choke for less than the 400
quid.

But unless otherwise proven, the OPTs and power trannys are probably not
great
quality.

Nice paint on the outside though.

Ppl in the know would chuck away the chinese valves and use WE 300B........


Send a thankyou note to the Chinese Communist Party who
controls worker wages and conditions.

And if wages are usd $2 per day, and half the price is for chinese labour,
there is 250 man hours per amp, that's 5 weeks at 50 hrs per week of labour
for
1 man.
But that just sounds way too much labour in a grimy noisy dirty mass
production
chinese factory, and I bet no more than 2 man weeks of labour is involved.

The rest goes where? CCP? BMW for the boss?


I think that's the essence - you really don't know. UK built - a
*significant proportion of anything* goes into a regressive taxation
regime (direct and indirect) and the pockets of owners. I suspect China
has low taxation (at least, plenty of workarounds), low capital and
revenue costs and large post production markup. The wage figures you
give are meaningful if relative wages are high.

I'm not saying any of this is 'good' - I just think an open mind helps
before damning one against the shoddy yardstick of another. On which(!),
I'm off to China in a couple of months looking at regeneration in
Shanghai - I'll let y'all know :-)

Rob



Rob,

Why not try to acquire a few trannies while you're there?

Jon


I'll certainly have a look around - got a feeling just one will tip the
baggage allowance!

Rob

Cessna172 wrote:
Cessna172 wrote in
. 240.10:

"Ian Iveson" wrote in news:hs0vf.71396
:

What's the bass like at volume into
ordinary mainstream speakers? How well does the piano cope with the
tympani? Or light cymbals with saxophone? Is Mahler muddled?


Interesting question ;-)


Following that up, what issues would you expect to hear using a valve amp
into ordinary modern speakers?
--
Cessna172

Though I started this thread, I don't actually know what size the amp
is that Keith lent you. The big issue in tube amps is matching the tube
with the speaker through the transformer: output impedance, damping
factor, sensitiviity/volume and transient overload ability.

If you have a PP tube amp in the range of 20-25W, your speakers hardly
matter. If your tube amp is smaller, you want a progressively more
sensitive speaker. When you get down into the real quality of tube
amps, which is generally low-wattage to keep it affordable (you're now
in company where a very fine 300B amp is the budget option), very
sensitive point source speakers, often horns, are chosen first and then
the tube amp to drive them. At this point you might also choose panels
like ESL63 (which are "ordinary modern speakers" at least in this
company) and tube amps start rising in price exponentially as you again
come up to the power required.

From experience: 1W is all it takes to drive Lowther horns well at
sensitivities of about 96dB bare and 101dB inbox, and 16W of SE power
(parallel single ended 300B, say) is good for ESL63 which are about
85dB sensitive, i.e. not very.

Generally speaking, with tube-friendly speakers, 2W is considered more
than enough for all contingencies. There's a tube friendly speak on my
site that you can build a pair of for about 150 buck; look for The
Impresario.

If your speakers are not quite suitable the bass will not sound right,
and big moments in the music will sound rough. It really depends what
you play. I have an 75W SE amp; it sounds great playing symphonies at
ear-splitting volumes through panels. I hardly ever play symphonies,
and never at earsplitting volumes. It has been years since I used that
amp at 75W; instead I use it at 20W+ configuration because that is more
than enough for huge, huge volumes on the most insensitive speakers I
own.

Having said all that, I always advise people to get their speakers
first, decide they want to marry them for life, then buy an amp that
works with the speakers regardless of whether it is tube or solid
state, PP or SE, or any other consideration.

You don't listen to the amp; you listen to the speakers. All these
discussions about amps, cheap Chinese v. best-quality custom made, is
so many angels dancing on the head of a pin. The truth is that any amp,
including the Chinese under discussion, is an elitist item at the top
of the market, whereas even expensive speakers are by no means a final
solution. Furthermore, even if you have fabulous speakers for every
single purpose, you will hear the subtle differences under discussion
here only if your system is in balance, for instance if your source is
as well matched the rest of the system.

HTH.

Andre Jute
Visit Jute on Amps at http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/
"wonderfully well written and reasoned information
for the tube audio constructor"
John Broskie TubeCAD & GlassWare
"an unbelievably comprehensive web site
containing vital gems of wisdom"
Stuart Perry Hi-Fi News & Record Review

Keith G wrote:
"Rob" wrote



I'm not saying any of this is 'good' - I just think an open mind helps
before damning one against the shoddy yardstick of another. On which(!),
I'm off to China in a couple of months looking at regeneration in
Shanghai - I'll let y'all know :-)




Rob, please do!

We need more factual information and a lot less 'probably' and 'I suspect'
on these issues....

I would like to know if the Chinese are generally 'happy' - the torrent of
cheap Chinese stuff is handy to have and very liberating for us poor
Westerners, but I would hate to think schoolkids are still going blind
'handweaving carpets', as it were...!!

There won't be any neo-capitalist 'Utopia', that's for sure, but I would
like to know things are not as dire as some would have us believe - for
audio kit assemblers, if at all possible??


I'll give it a go - plenty of pics assured! I'm not sure how much of an
insider's view I'll get, but it should be an intriguing experience. I've
spoken to a few people who've been and the experience has quite changed
their world view.

Rob

Patrick Turner wrote:

Rob wrote:


Patrick Turner wrote:

Keith G wrote:


-snip-

OK if it sounds better than this:

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/jaau...aaudio300b.htm

and looks as good, I'll order one - 400 quid OK with you (with valves)...???


I don't think Ian could buy the parts and materials for less than 400quid,
or about usd $700.
I doubt Sowter could do the 2 OPTs and PT and a choke for less than the 400
quid.

But unless otherwise proven, the OPTs and power trannys are probably not great
quality.

Nice paint on the outside though.

Ppl in the know would chuck away the chinese valves and use WE 300B........


Send a thankyou note to the Chinese Communist Party who
controls worker wages and conditions.

And if wages are usd $2 per day, and half the price is for chinese labour,
there is 250 man hours per amp, that's 5 weeks at 50 hrs per week of labour for
1 man.
But that just sounds way too much labour in a grimy noisy dirty mass production
chinese factory, and I bet no more than 2 man weeks of labour is involved.

The rest goes where? CCP? BMW for the boss?


I think that's the essence - you really don't know. UK built - a
*significant proportion of anything* goes into a regressive taxation
regime (direct and indirect) and the pockets of owners. I suspect China
has low taxation (at least, plenty of workarounds), low capital and
revenue costs and large post production markup. The wage figures you
give are meaningful if relative wages are high.

I'm not saying any of this is 'good' - I just think an open mind helps
before damning one against the shoddy yardstick of another. On which(!),
I'm off to China in a couple of months looking at regeneration in
Shanghai - I'll let y'all know :-)


I have not been impressed with OPT quality that I have seen from anywhere in asia,
unless its something from Japan, which has been seriously
making tube hi-fi gear for a much longer time than elsewhere.
But I have seen two Lux amps from japan with wrecked OPTs from tubes
failing, so while jap OPTs may be good, they fail because of fragility,
so not all was ever well with japanese know how and japanese ability to provide over
current
protection in their amps.
But the price of japaense OPTs is quite high, so it is better for me
to wind my own for my own projects unless a client
specifies exactly what jap OPT he wants, or purchases the trannies and asks me to
build
an amp around the OPTs.

Nobody I know would ever specify that i should use chinese, korean or taiwanese
OPTs, and i don't know of any reputable outlet of competitively priced
OPTs from the above 3 places.

This could be set to change when ppl there wake up about the
necesssity for

* Having the correct attitude to quality, and respect and full understanding
to RDH4 concerns re OPT design,
* low winding losses less than 5%,
* ability to withstand a primary current input
which is 10 times the idle current for 5 minutes without melting insulation
or causing shorted turns, thus making sure over current active protection can work
before damage occurs to the transformer.
* vacuum impregnation and proper varnishing, so transformers do not "howl"
with audio signals due to winding movements.
* use of only topgrade GOSS cores,
* use of grade 2 polyester-imide coated high temperature insulation winding wire.
( polyurethane coated wire is not permitted )
* use of enough GOSS and P windings to ensure saturation
occurs below 20Hz at full power.
* use of correctly dimensioned polyester or teflon insulation,
* use of winding techniques that allow HV use,
* neat layer would coils for each of many interleaved windings,
ensuring 70kHz of bandwidth with triode connected tubes and without loop NFB,
and ensuring low shunt capacitance.
* neat carefully labelled and rugged termination boards,
* winding layouts that have no primary tappings
for impedance matchings, only taps for UL or CFB usage.
* winding layouts with matchings for at least 2 speaker Z, preferably
3 and 6 ohms for most modern speakers which have a large % of the Z at
1/2 the nominal Z.
* secondary configurations must be arranged so there is equal current density
in each coil, no wasted or unused coils result when changing Z matching,
and so HF cut off does not change.
So having one single secondary with taps along it for Z matching is not permissible.
* able to be used with 20dB of NFB and still remain stable
with a 0.22uF capaciatnce load at low level when tube gain is at a max,
and have no more than 3 dB peaking in the output response at between
25kHz and 50 kHz when 2uF is the sole load when 16dB of NFB is used in the 43% UL
connection.
* potted using a method which allows removal of the OPT from the pot easily,
so the tranny could later be rewound if necessary.

But I see no eveidence that most of the above concerns are being taken seriously in
china
or anywhere except perhaps japan.

The use of potting isn't necessary for DIYers who may prefer to build
a box over all transformers, but some diyers don't, and don't mind
naked HV terminals which are deadly.
I don't like flying leads and bell ends.
My 300 watt OPTs have about 10 connections to the P and 24 to the S,
so flying leads are impractical.

Potting does allow a maker to hide all his mistakes.

Since nobody much addresses all the concerns I have for a low price,
I wind my own.

I don't care a hoot about what the chinese prices are.

Patrick Turner.


OK Patrick, so you've said. You do seem to care about two key things:

1. The plight of the Chinese workers. I'm interested in this too - a big
part of the reason for my visit.

2. Chinese audio transformers/valve gear isn't very good. The safety
points you make are worrying, although I'm not sure what you mean by
'bell ends'; something lost in translation I fear. Perhaps our 'CE'
marking makes a difference? Just looking at ebay feedback, and reports
on this NG, it certainly seems up to the job ...? In any case, I'm not
qualified to comment on what's under the bonnet so your 'necessaries'
are tricky for me to evaluate.

Rob