"Patrick Turner" wrote


I'll make you something really good that works.

OK if it sounds better than this:

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/jaau...aaudio300b.htm

and looks as good, I'll order one - 400 quid OK with you (with
valves)...???

I don't think Ian could buy the parts and materials for less than 400quid,
or about usd $700.


*Ding!!*


I doubt Sowter could do the 2 OPTs and PT and a choke for less than the
400
quid.


*Ding!!*


But unless otherwise proven, the OPTs and power trannys are probably not
great
quality.


Probably?

If 'ifs' and 'ands' were pots and pans...??

(Pat, *if* you were a bird you would probably fly backwards to keep the sand
outta yer eyes....!! ;-)


Nice paint on the outside though.


(Didn't hear Ian mention throwing in a paint job, did you?)



Ppl in the know would chuck away the chinese valves and use WE
300B........


No, they would throw away the 'Chinese valves' and fit, er, 'Golden
Dragons'.....!!! :-)



Send a thankyou note to the Chinese Communist Party who
controls worker wages and conditions.


Gawd....

China is the FASTEST GROWING ECONOMY in the entire bloody world!! (Learn to
like Chow Mein Patrick.... ;-)


rest snipped - the sums didn't add up...

"Keith G" wrote

UK audiophiles have no need to resort to Oriental imports of
inferior quality.

???

What makes you think they are inferior? I'm prepared to concede
that Pat will/may have seen a lot more dodgy Chinese amps than we
have in the UK, but I believe you live in the UK - what *bad*
Chinese amps have you seen?

It's this 'it's Chinese so it's inferior' bigotry that gets me - I
have spent money to *find out* for myself, I suspect a lot of the
'knockers' have never even heard a Chinese amplifier....



I didn't say Chinese amps are bad. I just said my amps are better
than inferior Chinese ones. Being tautological, or close, I reckoned
this assertion would be unassailable.

Neither do I believe that Chinese imports are generally inferior or
have a bad reputation. Certainly amongst the clueless there is
confusion, not to mention xenophobia. There is often also a failure
to know where China is, and distinguish it from Taiwan or South
Korea. Perhaps also there are some impressions carried over from
early experience with goods from Hong Kong.

But now the British audio press is full of praise for some Chinese
equipment. Shanling springs to mind. There seems a growing consensus
that goods are suspect if at least the casework is *not* made in
China, on the ground that it must be poor value for money.

"Designed in UK, made in China" is an emerging paradigm, but this is
just more silly and pathetic Western snobbery.

I have never heard any Chinese valve audio equipment, but I
confidently expect that they produce a range that is fit for market.
They sensibly and profitably produce whatever sells, including
cheaper items, inferior in absolute quality to others at the top of
the range, where they are innovative for the purpose of market
leadership. As a result of this, and their prodigious growth, they
are likely to become leaders in technology, markets, and eventually
brands. Like Japan but big enough to be not like Japan at all in the
end...this is on a scale we haven't seen before, and from a culture
more radically different from ours than that of modern Japan.

One thing that impresses me about Chinese audio equipment is their
almost immediate willingness to stamp their own identity on their
products. It took Japan many years of world domination before they
produced a motorcycle with Japanese eyes.

They have a poor historical reputation for making unreliable and
highly microphonic valves, but you can hardly condemn them for that.
Very few valves are made at all in Western Europe or the US.

Making superlative transformers is not hard. Their only reason for
not often doing so is the same as it is he too few people care
enough to spend money on them. They are at some disadvantage in
exporting to Europe because of shipping costs. It could well be that
relative bargains can be had if you can buy locally.

But anyone who does so should assess the quality, and then consider
the price, rather than vice-versa. The Chinese aren't daft, so they
know what their quality is worth.

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/jaau...aaudio300b.htm

and looks as good, I'll order one - 400 quid OK with you (with
valves)...???

Absolutely not. I won't work with that grade of stainless steel for
a start. Looks like my Chinese toaster (which incidentally blew a
fuse after scarcely a dozen crumpets). Neither would it be worth my
while to use poor transformers or potentiometers. Three times the
price would get you acceptable quality. Five times for something
close to perfection, but not with 300B.

Anyone who says an amp is so good they got another as backup lacks
credibility with me, BTW.

cheers, Ian

Patrick Turner wrote:

Keith G wrote:

-snip-

OK if it sounds better than this:

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/jaau...aaudio300b.htm

and looks as good, I'll order one - 400 quid OK with you (with valves)...???


I don't think Ian could buy the parts and materials for less than 400quid,
or about usd $700.
I doubt Sowter could do the 2 OPTs and PT and a choke for less than the 400
quid.

But unless otherwise proven, the OPTs and power trannys are probably not great
quality.

Nice paint on the outside though.

Ppl in the know would chuck away the chinese valves and use WE 300B........


Send a thankyou note to the Chinese Communist Party who
controls worker wages and conditions.

And if wages are usd $2 per day, and half the price is for chinese labour,
there is 250 man hours per amp, that's 5 weeks at 50 hrs per week of labour for
1 man.
But that just sounds way too much labour in a grimy noisy dirty mass production
chinese factory, and I bet no more than 2 man weeks of labour is involved.

The rest goes where? CCP? BMW for the boss?


I think that's the essence - you really don't know. UK built - a
*significant proportion of anything* goes into a regressive taxation
regime (direct and indirect) and the pockets of owners. I suspect China
has low taxation (at least, plenty of workarounds), low capital and
revenue costs and large post production markup. The wage figures you
give are meaningful if relative wages are high.

I'm not saying any of this is 'good' - I just think an open mind helps
before damning one against the shoddy yardstick of another. On which(!),
I'm off to China in a couple of months looking at regeneration in
Shanghai - I'll let y'all know :-)

Rob

Patrick Turner wrote

I doubt Sowter could do the 2 OPTs and PT and a choke for less
than the 400
quid.

About 550 at least.

http://www.sowter.co.uk/

same price/quality as anywhere else in Western Europe or North
America. For small quantities I have not heard of better value
Chinese sources. They would probably need to import the steel, if
not the laminations, because they are unlikely to have access to the
best steel technology in China. Winding transformers may be monkey
work, but making state-of-the-art steel laminations isn't.

cheers, Ian.

in article , Rob at
wrote on 1/4/06 2:32 PM:

Patrick Turner wrote:

Keith G wrote:

-snip-

OK if it sounds better than this:

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/jaau...aaudio300b.htm

and looks as good, I'll order one - 400 quid OK with you (with valves)...???


I don't think Ian could buy the parts and materials for less than 400quid,
or about usd $700.
I doubt Sowter could do the 2 OPTs and PT and a choke for less than the 400
quid.

But unless otherwise proven, the OPTs and power trannys are probably not
great
quality.

Nice paint on the outside though.

Ppl in the know would chuck away the chinese valves and use WE 300B........


Send a thankyou note to the Chinese Communist Party who
controls worker wages and conditions.

And if wages are usd $2 per day, and half the price is for chinese labour,
there is 250 man hours per amp, that's 5 weeks at 50 hrs per week of labour
for
1 man.
But that just sounds way too much labour in a grimy noisy dirty mass
production
chinese factory, and I bet no more than 2 man weeks of labour is involved.

The rest goes where? CCP? BMW for the boss?


I think that's the essence - you really don't know. UK built - a
*significant proportion of anything* goes into a regressive taxation
regime (direct and indirect) and the pockets of owners. I suspect China
has low taxation (at least, plenty of workarounds), low capital and
revenue costs and large post production markup. The wage figures you
give are meaningful if relative wages are high.

I'm not saying any of this is 'good' - I just think an open mind helps
before damning one against the shoddy yardstick of another. On which(!),
I'm off to China in a couple of months looking at regeneration in
Shanghai - I'll let y'all know :-)

Rob


Rob,

Why not try to acquire a few trannies while you're there?

Jon

"Ian Iveson" wrote


I didn't say Chinese amps are bad. I just said my amps are better than
inferior Chinese ones. Being tautological, or close, I reckoned this
assertion would be unassailable.


It is - your amps would even be better than *Martian* inferor ones..??

The question is 'are your amps better than similarly priced Chinese amps?'
surely...??



Neither do I believe that Chinese imports are generally inferior or have a
bad reputation. Certainly amongst the clueless there is confusion, not to
mention xenophobia. There is often also a failure to know where China is,
and distinguish it from Taiwan or South Korea. Perhaps also there are some
impressions carried over from early experience with goods from Hong Kong.


Can't speak for anyone else but I'm fully aware where China is. (Also the
words 'Made In China' provide a reasonable clue... ;-)



But now the British audio press is full of praise for some Chinese
equipment.


I don't go by what the 'audio press' is or isn't saying - in anything, other
than 'technical stuff' and even then I'd check here before I took it
onboard...


Shanling springs to mind. There seems a growing consensus
that goods are suspect if at least the casework is *not* made in China, on
the ground that it must be poor value for money.

"Designed in UK, made in China" is an emerging paradigm, but this is just
more silly and pathetic Western snobbery.


Agreed.



I have never heard any Chinese valve audio equipment,


Aha!!

Why am I not in the least surprised to hear that?

Give me credit for making the effort/ spending the money to find out for
myself then. (As I *always* do wherever possible...)

snip interesting dissertation



http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/jaau...aaudio300b.htm

and looks as good, I'll order one - 400 quid OK with you (with
valves)...???

Absolutely not. I won't work with that grade of stainless steel for a
start


OK, an extra tenner for a bit of better steel then? :-)


.. Looks like my Chinese toaster (which incidentally blew a
fuse after scarcely a dozen crumpets).


Sounds like a case of 'over crumpetting' to me..??


Out of interest, our new toaster's ****e (toasts one side more than the
other) and it says 'Kenwood, England' underneath it! (I suspect it's Chinese
manufacture and being marketted by one of those firms who are a bit up
themselves about where they get their gear made!) Anyway, we're not too
bothered - it was only **CHEEP**!! :-)

Heh heh! :-)


Neither would it be worth my
while to use poor transformers or potentiometers. Three times the price
would get you acceptable quality. Five times for something close to
perfection, but not with 300B.


:-)

So you make the equivalent Mercedes cars then? - Tough **** for people with
only 'Ford' money, innit? (Or tough **** for you when everybody twigs a
Ford'll get the job done!! ;-)



Anyone who says an amp is so good they got another as backup lacks
credibility with me, BTW.


Who cares? I like a backup for *everything* electro-mechanical (within
reason, we don't need no 2 washing maches in the house) - it's born from my
own personal experience and has paid off more times than I care to
recall....

Let's get one thing straight - I make no claims for these amps other that I
think they are good (means nothing) and I consider them to be loopy VFM. The
amp you can afford sounds a lot better than any number that you can't
afford, in your own home, in my book. My point with these amps is that they
open the door for a lot of people to get 'into valves' who might otherwise
be put off by high prices.

FWIW, a number of visitors (including a couple here) put my 2A3 SET down as
my *best* amp - I don't give a rat's, I like them all....

Now *if* you live in Cambridge (do you? - it's a suspicion I've got) you are
welcome to come here (St Neots - 20 mins away) and hear the Chinese cheepies
for yourself.

What you made of them would be entirely up to you....?? (I only bought
some - I ain't got shares in them or anything... ;-)

"Rob" wrote


I'm not saying any of this is 'good' - I just think an open mind helps
before damning one against the shoddy yardstick of another. On which(!),
I'm off to China in a couple of months looking at regeneration in
Shanghai - I'll let y'all know :-)



Rob, please do!

We need more factual information and a lot less 'probably' and 'I suspect'
on these issues....

I would like to know if the Chinese are generally 'happy' - the torrent of
cheap Chinese stuff is handy to have and very liberating for us poor
Westerners, but I would hate to think schoolkids are still going blind
'handweaving carpets', as it were...!!

There won't be any neo-capitalist 'Utopia', that's for sure, but I would
like to know things are not as dire as some would have us believe - for
audio kit assemblers, if at all possible??

Rob wrote:

Patrick Turner wrote:

Keith G wrote:

-snip-

OK if it sounds better than this:

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/jaau...aaudio300b.htm

and looks as good, I'll order one - 400 quid OK with you (with valves)...???


I don't think Ian could buy the parts and materials for less than 400quid,
or about usd $700.
I doubt Sowter could do the 2 OPTs and PT and a choke for less than the 400
quid.

But unless otherwise proven, the OPTs and power trannys are probably not great
quality.

Nice paint on the outside though.

Ppl in the know would chuck away the chinese valves and use WE 300B........


Send a thankyou note to the Chinese Communist Party who
controls worker wages and conditions.

And if wages are usd $2 per day, and half the price is for chinese labour,
there is 250 man hours per amp, that's 5 weeks at 50 hrs per week of labour for
1 man.
But that just sounds way too much labour in a grimy noisy dirty mass production
chinese factory, and I bet no more than 2 man weeks of labour is involved.

The rest goes where? CCP? BMW for the boss?


I think that's the essence - you really don't know. UK built - a
*significant proportion of anything* goes into a regressive taxation
regime (direct and indirect) and the pockets of owners. I suspect China
has low taxation (at least, plenty of workarounds), low capital and
revenue costs and large post production markup. The wage figures you
give are meaningful if relative wages are high.

I'm not saying any of this is 'good' - I just think an open mind helps
before damning one against the shoddy yardstick of another. On which(!),
I'm off to China in a couple of months looking at regeneration in
Shanghai - I'll let y'all know :-)

I have not been impressed with OPT quality that I have seen from anywhere in asia,
unless its something from Japan, which has been seriously
making tube hi-fi gear for a much longer time than elsewhere.
But I have seen two Lux amps from japan with wrecked OPTs from tubes
failing, so while jap OPTs may be good, they fail because of fragility,
so not all was ever well with japanese know how and japanese ability to provide over
current
protection in their amps.
But the price of japaense OPTs is quite high, so it is better for me
to wind my own for my own projects unless a client
specifies exactly what jap OPT he wants, or purchases the trannies and asks me to
build
an amp around the OPTs.

Nobody I know would ever specify that i should use chinese, korean or taiwanese
OPTs, and i don't know of any reputable outlet of competitively priced
OPTs from the above 3 places.

This could be set to change when ppl there wake up about the
necesssity for

* Having the correct attitude to quality, and respect and full understanding
to RDH4 concerns re OPT design,
* low winding losses less than 5%,
* ability to withstand a primary current input
which is 10 times the idle current for 5 minutes without melting insulation
or causing shorted turns, thus making sure over current active protection can work
before damage occurs to the transformer.
* vacuum impregnation and proper varnishing, so transformers do not "howl"
with audio signals due to winding movements.
* use of only topgrade GOSS cores,
* use of grade 2 polyester-imide coated high temperature insulation winding wire.
( polyurethane coated wire is not permitted )
* use of enough GOSS and P windings to ensure saturation
occurs below 20Hz at full power.
* use of correctly dimensioned polyester or teflon insulation,
* use of winding techniques that allow HV use,
* neat layer would coils for each of many interleaved windings,
ensuring 70kHz of bandwidth with triode connected tubes and without loop NFB,
and ensuring low shunt capacitance.
* neat carefully labelled and rugged termination boards,
* winding layouts that have no primary tappings
for impedance matchings, only taps for UL or CFB usage.
* winding layouts with matchings for at least 2 speaker Z, preferably
3 and 6 ohms for most modern speakers which have a large % of the Z at
1/2 the nominal Z.
* secondary configurations must be arranged so there is equal current density
in each coil, no wasted or unused coils result when changing Z matching,
and so HF cut off does not change.
So having one single secondary with taps along it for Z matching is not permissible.
* able to be used with 20dB of NFB and still remain stable
with a 0.22uF capaciatnce load at low level when tube gain is at a max,
and have no more than 3 dB peaking in the output response at between
25kHz and 50 kHz when 2uF is the sole load when 16dB of NFB is used in the 43% UL
connection.
* potted using a method which allows removal of the OPT from the pot easily,
so the tranny could later be rewound if necessary.

But I see no eveidence that most of the above concerns are being taken seriously in
china
or anywhere except perhaps japan.

The use of potting isn't necessary for DIYers who may prefer to build
a box over all transformers, but some diyers don't, and don't mind
naked HV terminals which are deadly.
I don't like flying leads and bell ends.
My 300 watt OPTs have about 10 connections to the P and 24 to the S,
so flying leads are impractical.

Potting does allow a maker to hide all his mistakes.

Since nobody much addresses all the concerns I have for a low price,
I wind my own.

I don't care a hoot about what the chinese prices are.

Patrick Turner.








Rob

Ian Iveson wrote:

Patrick Turner wrote

I doubt Sowter could do the 2 OPTs and PT and a choke for less
than the 400
quid.

About 550 at least.

http://www.sowter.co.uk/

same price/quality as anywhere else in Western Europe or North
America. For small quantities I have not heard of better value
Chinese sources. They would probably need to import the steel, if
not the laminations, because they are unlikely to have access to the
best steel technology in China. Winding transformers may be monkey
work, but making state-of-the-art steel laminations isn't.

cheers, Ian.

The price I have to pay for top quality GOSS E&I lams has risen
from $8 per Kg to $12 over the last 12 mths,

Why?

Because the chinese are buying up huge qualtities of GOSS sheet to
satisfy
demand for goods made in china for export.

I have reason to believe many chinese OPTs do have GOSS material which
is good
quality.
But there is far more to winding a decent OPT than just using good iron.

But we never se any exhaustive test reports of chinese crap.

So I don't buy audio amp parts made in china.

They act arrogantly by not providing us with the full details of the
construction of their products.

Patrick Turner.

"Keith G" wrote

The question is 'are your amps better than similarly priced
Chinese amps?' surely...??

I would rather the question be whether similarly priced Chinese amps
are better than mine. Answer is, not in the UK AFAIK. Certainly not
with the service I can provide. But they have no advantage here when
it comes to custom manufacture for individual requirements.

I have never heard any Chinese valve audio equipment,

Aha!!

Why am I not in the least surprised to hear that?

It is not very significant. I have just one pair of ears that I like
to use to listen to music, rather than fault-finding, which currupts
the listening experience.

OTOH, I contend that a good amp can be identified by the size of its
transformers in relation to its power output, assuming the iron is
of good quality. Most amps I see, including those in your link,
don't impress in that respect. I would want to know whether that
20Hz -1dB is at full power, for instance, and how much distortion
there is under those conditions. I'd want to know why the top end is
just 30kHz. Listening would not be the easiest or most reliable way
of finding out.

Give me credit for making the effort/ spending the money to find
out for myself then. (As I *always* do wherever possible...)

I don't begrudge you credit, but listening won't make a measurably
or observably poor amplifier any better.

I don't go by what the 'audio press' is or isn't saying - in
anything, other than 'technical stuff' and even then I'd check
here before I took it onboard...

Nobody does, but the magazines still go from the shelves:-)

Where is here? I assume you mean URA? Do they have experts? Perhaps
I should visit.

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/jaau...aaudio300b.htm

and looks as good, I'll order one - 400 quid OK with you (with
valves)...???

Absolutely not. I won't work with that grade of stainless steel
for a start


OK, an extra tenner for a bit of better steel then? :-)

And another for the sense to use it? Actually, SS is a bitch to work
with whatever its grade. I like laquered verdigris copper, brass,
and black hardwood because they age without looking smutty.
Jamaicans are always impressed.

. Looks like my Chinese toaster (which incidentally blew a
fuse after scarcely a dozen crumpets).


Sounds like a case of 'over crumpetting' to me..??

Perhaps they are too thick? Or too round...they have "toaster
friendly" crumpets in the shop, but the only difference is that they
are square. Seems to me they would get burned at the corners.

Out of interest, our new toaster's ****e (toasts one side more
than the other)...

IDEAL FOR CRUMPETS!!! As long as the ejector mechanism has a long
enough throw to remove them without burning your fingers. The round
ones are good because you can put one finger in and roll them up the
sides. But who am I to advise on toasters:-(

...and it says 'Kenwood, England' underneath it! (I suspect it's
Chinese manufacture and being marketted by one of those firms who
are a bit up themselves about where they get their gear made!)
Anyway, we're not too bothered - it was only **CHEEP**!! :-)

Taiwan, possibly? (they still say they *are* China, but really they
have always been an American satellite).

Neither would it be worth my
while to use poor transformers or potentiometers. Three times the
price would get you acceptable quality. Five times for something
close to perfection, but not with 300B.


:-)

I would be concerned about either the reliability or value-for-money
of the 300B, depending on where and when it was made. Ferrari or
Lotus don't impress me.

So you make the equivalent Mercedes cars then? - Tough **** for
people with only 'Ford' money, innit? (Or tough **** for you when
everybody twigs a Ford'll get the job done!! ;-)

Between VW and Audi, or Toyota and Lexus, rather than Kia or Daewoo,
perhaps. Performance, reliability, and clean style. Art extra. No
poshness. For those without the money for a decent amp, I generally
suggest SS is a better low-budget option. This is unlikely to
change.

Anyone who says an amp is so good they got another as backup
lacks credibility with me, BTW.

Who cares? I like a backup for *everything* electro-mechanical
(within reason, we don't need no 2 washing maches in the house) -
it's born from my own personal experience and has paid off more
times than I care to recall....

I most certainly care bitterly. I am stuck here with no toast
because I was not rich enough to buy a backup or the space to stash
it in. If I had twice the money, I would spend it on a less
treacherous device.

Let's get one thing straight - I make no claims for these amps
other that I think they are good (means nothing) and I consider
them to be loopy VFM. The amp you can afford sounds a lot better
than any number that you can't afford, in your own home, in my
book. My point with these amps is that they open the door for a
lot of people to get 'into valves' who might otherwise be put off
by high prices.

Which buggers up the market for decent stuff. The only advantage of
a valve amp is quality as far as I care. Does a 400 UKP SET offer a
better listening experience than the best available SS of similar
power and price? Personally, I find that difficult to believe.

FWIW, a number of visitors (including a couple here) put my 2A3
SET down as my *best* amp - I don't give a rat's, I like them
all....

I would need to know a lot about the conduct of the visit and the
nature of the visitors!

Now *if* you live in Cambridge (do you? - it's a suspicion I've
got) you are welcome to come here (St Neots - 20 mins away) and
hear the Chinese cheepies for yourself.

Bradford. Million miles away, a cultural desert somewhere above
Sheffield. Thanks all the same. What's the bass like at volume into
ordinary mainstream speakers? How well does the piano cope with the
tympani? Or light cymbals with saxophone? Is Mahler muddled?

What you made of them would be entirely up to you....??

If they are up to Zappa's "Apostrophe", they are good enough for
me:-)

(I only bought some - I ain't got shares in them or anything...
;-)

Sure, of course. Can we have shares in Chinese companies? A more
likely investment would be in their distributors.

cheers, Ian