Wally it doesn't seem too great a stretch to suggest that a person
can be in a logical, thinking mode some of the time, and in a feeling
'arty' mode at other times - I don't see that one neccessarily
precludes the other.

The MBTI would agree with you - it only establishes a general
preference, not a situational one, and the opposite pole is present and
referred to as the 'shadow'. In the work I've done on creativity, I'd
say that you need both simultaneously. This is particularly the case
with improvising jazz, which was my own profession for years - the
chord structure and available options of substitute chords etc
(thinking) has to be conveyed through an equally important empathy with
the other musicians, "swing" which is a feel thing, and emotion
(feeling). It's also non-verbal and spatial processes predominate (as
the research would confirm). But this is common to all creativity
within art - indeed Rossetti said "fundamental brainwork is what makes
the difference in all art". The exploration may have a "feel"
dimension, especially in a state of flow or 'rumination' as it is
sometimes referred to as, but the myraid decisions and micro decisions
have to have a reasoned artistic place in the whole opus, without which
the process would be merely expressive rather than truly productive

Wally it doesn't seem too great a stretch to suggest that a person
can be in a logical, thinking mode some of the time, and in a feeling
'arty' mode at other times - I don't see that one neccessarily
precludes the other.

The MBTI would agree with you - it only establishes a general
preference, not a situational one, and the opposite pole is present and
referred to as the 'shadow'. In the work I've done on creativity, I'd
say that you need both simultaneously. This is particularly the case
with improvising jazz, which was my own profession for years - the
chord structure and available options of substitute chords etc
(thinking) has to be conveyed through an equally important empathy with
the other musicians, "swing" which is a feel thing, and emotion
(feeling). It's also non-verbal and spatial processes predominate (as
the research would confirm). But this is common to all creativity
within art - indeed Rossetti said "fundamental brainwork is what makes
the difference in all art". The exploration may have a "feel"
dimension, especially in a state of flow or 'rumination' as it is
sometimes referred to as, but the myraid decisions and micro decisions
have to have a reasoned artistic place in the whole opus, without which
the process would be merely expressive rather than truly productive

In article . com,
Andy Evans wrote:
It is a truism that musical and mathematical ability often coincide
Pinkerton.

No it isn't. Some mathematicians are indeed musical, but professional
musicians are much closer to the creative personality on key factors as
measured by the Cattell 16PF

[Yawn]

All of a sudden you believe in measurements...

--
*Forget about World Peace...Visualize using your turn signal.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article .com,
Andy Evans wrote:
I'll not hold my breath waiting for Andy to explain in clear terms
what he means. Because he doesn't believe in accepted measurements,
but some form of 'magic' ventured Plowman.

Don't be so quick to dismiss magic as a human phenomenon - it's an
interesting subject of study. I owe some interest in it to my friend
Jerry Sadowitz who wrote the forward to my book "This Virtual Life -
Escapism and Simulation in our Media World" (Fusion Press, 2001) .
Magic is found in pp 18 to 22, together with Illusion, Paranormal
Psychology, the Psychology of Deception and the magician as escapist.
It is no surprise for me to find you routinely dismissive of some of
the more interesting aspects of human behaviour - others like to keep a
more open mind to psychological aspects of our social interactions.

Thanks for explaining what I already knew. You dismiss DBT as being an
'engineers' method, but know all about the psychology of deception.

--
*Sleep with a photographer and watch things develop

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article , Stewart Pinkerton
wrote:


You never need to trust an engineer - unless you fly...... :-)

Or cross a bridge... or go into a tall building... or... :-)

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html

"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote


I suspect you are right about the 'Class A' thing and am hoping to grab
a
Class A SS amp for reasonable money in a couple of says time to check it
out
for myself and compare it with the Class A valve amps I already have.

I mostly use a Class A Krell amplifier - it sounds just like my
low-bias Class AB Audiolab amplifier.................


There is *no question* that my Class A valve amps sound better than my AB
valve amps...

Perhaps it's your speakers?



The smaller and lower-powered the better. There is a suspicion held by
more ultrafidelista than just the microwatters that higher power in
itself interferes with desirable delicacy in one's sound.


Those are the words of Fruitius Loopius, but I happen to agree. I am a lot
more comfortable with the idea that there isn't too much *constriction*
going on in the amp/speaker arrangement....



That's because they are idiots who think SET amps sound good, so they
make up these fairy stories about proper amplifiers in order to
ascribe some magivcal prperty to their pathetic flea-power crap.


:-)

It's the word 'pathetic' that says most here - FWIW, no-one much can stand
the 'loudness' of my 8 watt 300B SET at half volume here.....


The
term 'ultrafidelista' is of course just more of your pretentious
twaddle.


Yes, he means 'ultrafidelitians' I suspect.... ;-)

Doesn't include me, btw - I'm not hung up on 'fidelity', I'm a *consumer*
who is more interested in the sound than the signal...

"Andre Jute" wrote in message
oups.com...

Keith G wrote:


I'm most definitely a SeTtie (worked my way up to it) but the *absence*
of
the usual crossposting encourages me to read further...

These are considerations of culture rather than technicalities.


Culture without etiquette is like a snake with no head...



See my remarks to Mick about how your ear and brain adapts to whatever
equipment you have.


??


There are a couple of others here I usually expect to trot out that sort of
(obvious) remark......

My problem (or saving grace) is that I accomodate the change in sound from
different items of audio gear very quickly, which is why I so elicit the
opinions of others when the opportunity presents - I'm interested in what
they think, I don't need then to tell me what I like.......



No. "A degree of fidelity" is not unqualified fidelity.


Again with the statement of the obvious...?? Thinking aloud, possibly?


"Recognition of
someone's voice" is high fidelity, sure. Unqualified fidelity would be
the possibility of mistaking the replay for the person in the room with
you but out of sight behind the curtain or perhaps behind you.


Long past that point, thank you kindly - being startled by 'unexpected'
voices and, for a split second, thinking there was someone in the house!!
That is a good example of a 'greater' degree of fidelity...



I suspect you are right about the 'Class A' thing and am hoping to grab a
Class A SS amp for reasonable money in a couple of says time to check it
out
for myself and compare it with the Class A valve amps I already have.

The smaller and lower-powered the better. There is a suspicion held by
more ultrafidelista than just the microwatters that higher power in
itself interferes with desirable delicacy in one's sound.


Yes, I'm very hip to the 'Zen' of flea-power amps moving serious air with
large, sensitive speakers, myself.

The idea of an arc-welder driving a pair of ironing boards is a bit like a
V8 motorcar being driven with the handbrake permanently on, in my book......

Isn't that very *American* - needing 200 watts to do 55 mph....??? :-)


snip Quad stuff - I am the one person in this group who 'doesn't give a
sod
about Quad'...

Audiophile Wealth Alert: this is a serious mistake you're committing,
Keith. You should take an interest in Quad because Quad gives you
superior sound in exchange for mere money. If you count up the value of
your hours, you hi-fi is already many times the price of a complete
top-drawer Quad setup. Also, you require a reference, and for this
second-hand Quad gear is the cheap option, and also the superior
option.


Pay attention now, Keith. Andy and I between us can explain it to you.
Might take us a while though. Put on some nice muzak and...


Unlikely....

I seriously doubt either you or Andy share my range of taste in music....

"John Phillips" wrote


snip pricky stuff


It is difficult to generalize but most of the successful engineers I
know are also highly cultured people. Indeed, lunch today will be with
an engineering manager friend who plays the clarinet and I look forward
to discussing the programming of a forthcoming concert in which he will
perform. I find that good engineers often have a broader appreciation
of culture than those who claim the title "cultured" for themselves.


This phrase 'good engineers' bothers me....

(Implies there engineers who are *not* good - where do the they go then??)

Andy:

This is absolutely fascinating. In fact, I have long believed that my
extraordinary serendipity runs true in my choice of publishers, in that
the people who share publishers with me are generally and particularly
the most interesting, cleverest and entertaining writers.

However, I think that from your analysis it is only a short step to
performing on-line Hare evaluations of the "engineers" we meet here,
and finding them full forty-score undesirables. We do seems to have an
inordinately large proportions of intuitive obstructives. That would be
a lot of work wasted to discover what we know already; I prefer simply
to remember the TIME article which explained why the ugliest people in
society become engineers, which was brought to my attention by a
protege of mine, herself an engineer (and definitely not ugly either
spiritually or physically, a shining exception--except that she isn't:
most of the automobile, electronic and civil engineers I know are
cultured, civilized and entertaining people -- the audio conferences
probably attract all the wrongoes in the world and therefore give a
skewed view).

I like the loose phrasing of "cultured people" and "technical people"
because I am an includer, not an excluder like the obstructionists
here, and I like the carefully loose phrasing (1) among other good
reasons because it admits of a huge overlap. (Ask yourself why Roderick
Stewart is going to such extraordinary lengths to "prove" his lie that
I devised these categories to be mutually exclusive, and why all the
wrong people immediately piled in to cheer him to the rafters. The
answer is sickening.)

It seems to me significant that the engineers who actually work in
recording and music production are very carefully staying out of this
thread because they don't want to be tarred with the arid, cramped,
fearful brush of the "engineers" whose idea of logic is to snip
relevant counter-argument and then to repeat their own argument, plus
abuse of course.

Thanks for the entertainment!

Andre Jute

(1) Several of my mentors and keenest boosters were Freudians. I regret
now in the overenthusiastic ignorance of youth savaging their hero for
"being of strictly literary interest". Science is not defined only by a
concurrent ability to take hard measurements; it is amazing how often
science proceeds by insight only later formalized by repeatable test
protocols, and it is notable how even in my lifetime psychology and
economics, more philosophies than sciences when I was a student, have
developed a hard mathematical carapace. My joke, intended to reassure
my partners and clients that the millions we spent on market research
were justified, that "Economists and psychologist are merely jumped-up
statisticians with more imagination and class," is probably well on the
way to becoming true.

Andy Evans wrote:
I'll not hold my breath waiting for Andy to explain in clear terms what
he means. Because he doesn't believe in accepted measurements, but some
form of 'magic'

That is complete and utter nonsense and not based on anything I've
said, though it seems a commonplace on this ng to find myself
misrepresented. To take up the point about the "engineers personality"
which seems to have come in for some discussion here, we already know
that engineers as a general grouping (n=986) are T 50% on the MBTI and
as high as 80% in the case of operations and systems analysis, which
differs from artists as 44% (see other posting in this thread) - this
would be one differentiating factor that Andre may have alluded to. It
would also be interesting to look at factor A on the Catell 16PF which
we know to be skewed downwards in scientists, engineers and indeed
academics. My data on both popular and classical musicians on Factor A
puts them around the norm for UK adults at sten score 5. (Evans A
"Secrets of Musical Confidence, HarperCollins), while engineers would
be significantly lower particularly if they were also academics.
Entertainers can be significantly A+. People with low scores on A+ are
said by Cattell (1957) to be ?obstructive, cantankerous, inflexible,
rigid, cool, indifferent, secretive, anxious, suspicious, hostile,
egotistical and dry ? apparently not such a pleasant person to have as
a friend?. I leave it to the imagination to figure if this applies to
members of this newsgroup. High scorers on this he described as
?warmhearted, adaptable, attentive to people, frank, emotional,
expressive, trustful, impulsive, generous and co-operative? (evidently
an easier person to have as a friend). So it seems that Andre's
attempted distinction between engineering and what he referred to as
"culture" (rather loose word) would certainly hold for parameters such
as expressiveness and emotionality (again see other posts on this
thread). I believe that this factor, probably more than any other,
gives a much needed reference for what has been a rather woolly debate
in strictly psychometric personality terms. Catell goes on to say many
things, of which the following is relevant, since it relates to the
frustration and animosity displayed by those low in factor A towards
those scoring higher on A (arts in general, and particularly
entertainers, but also health workers which relates to my own case).
"Social workers have to adapt cheerfully and flexibly to a lot of
compromises with human failings and to accept a ceaseless impact of
never entirely soluble emotional problems that might drive the exact
logician or the careful electrician mad?.
The clinical data shows more psychopathology for lower A scores, such
as social avoidance, critical detachment, flatness of affect or a
history of unsatisfactory relationships, and it would be recommended
that clinicians encountering scores of 1 or 2 should check for
?burnt-child? reactions associated with unrewarding and austere
relationships in early years. Changes in factor A can be attributed to
situational factors such as occupation, so some caution in interpreting
the above is recommended, though there is also evidence of relative
long term stability and also hereditary tendencies.

On Tue, 14 Feb 2006 09:59:15 -0000, "Keith G"
wrote:


"John Phillips" wrote


snip pricky stuff


It is difficult to generalize but most of the successful engineers I
know are also highly cultured people. Indeed, lunch today will be with
an engineering manager friend who plays the clarinet and I look forward
to discussing the programming of a forthcoming concert in which he will
perform. I find that good engineers often have a broader appreciation
of culture than those who claim the title "cultured" for themselves.


This phrase 'good engineers' bothers me....

(Implies there engineers who are *not* good - where do the they go then??)



They install aerials - some of them, anyway.

d

Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com